30 replies to this topic

[Larry Mattingly]

Are the side windows of NASCAR bodies allowed to be removed? There is nothing definitive in the rules.

We used to remove them in the 1960s to save weight ( ), and permit trapped air to escape.

Cutting them out may reduce the body integrity, etc.

My opinion would be to mandate that ALL windows remain intact.

Thanks...

LM

[MG Brown]

I would agree with keeping the windows in. It follows the retro racing KISS principle.

[Cheater]

Exactly, guys. Allowing practices that increase the amount of time a racer has to spend getting a car built or ready to race will almost always be counter-productive.

The IRRA BoD is discussing the question and will post a ruling shortly.

[Tex]

Obviously, I go along with whatever the BoD says, BUT...

Personally, I don't see a problem with cutting the side windows out on a NASCAR body or a Trans-Am body. That's the way they were in real life AND I think that cutting them out would actually create more turbulence, as opposed to allowing trapped air out from under the body, and slow the car down.

Now, if the REAR window were cut out, I would agree that it "could" allow trapped air out from under the body IF the interior did not fully cover the area between the side windows and from the front of the windshield to the back of where the back glass/window would be. I would think that if (1) the interior DID fill the void described above completely AND (2) the side windows only were cut out, that air would actually be sucked INTO the interior area (venturi effect) and become trapped by the back glass/window.

[MG Brown]

The question of if side windows are used in NASCAR is a tricky one.

In all current cup races the driver's side window in removed but then the window is covered by a window net. Prior to Richard Petty's famous accident, in some races NASCAR cup cars used a window on the driver's side.

In some current races the passenger side window is retained and in some races it is removed. (see below)





Having a simple rule that states "no window material or other cut-outs may be removed from the body" makes the building as well as the tech process easy for all.

I would suggest this to save the "Yes, but..." that allowing body cutouts will surely bring. OK?

[Larry Mattingly]

Not sure about the 'turbulence' factor...

I just recall cutting them out of those .040" Du-Bro bodies. We had to have a reason for doing it?...

As for 'open' windows in NASCAR 1:1 cars back in the day... I believe the practice was to run them open on the short-tracks, and roll them up on the super speedway for improved aerodynamics.

I agree with M.G. and Cheater... For our purposes it seems like leaving the body intact is the easiest solution.

LM

[Cheater]

Tex,

I think the "turbulence" factor is relatively unimportant. What I believe would matter is being able to remove "high weight" from the body (which is a mandated .015" thick).

This is likely to have a noticeable effect on handling and if so, would become something every racer would feel like he had to do to be competitive.

So allowing the practice would almost certainly increase building time, as I said previously, but without bringing any significant benefit, at least IMO.

[tonyp]

With the thick NASCAR bodies, cutting out windows would save weight and help handling.

If they are in, it's less work, bodies will look better, and everyone will be the same.

[Chris Barnes]

This may seem a little bit off base, but if the windows are cut out, a potential hazzard to the turn marshalls could occur. If a window is not cleanly cut out of the 0.015" material, then this could cut the turn marshall when frantically trying to grab a car and put it back in the slot. I remember leaving the windows in and painting the driver's net for realism.

The thicker body should prevent some of the cracking and splitting of the window areas, but also create more of a knife.

We don't need to lose racers/turn marshalls with having to implement a "blood" rule!

[Marty Stanley]

Larry,

What a great question!

Originally I would have said, "If you replace the driver's side window with a window net, go ahead."

However, I chose to do some research and found an interesting photo:

Sure does look to me like about all that was done is the stock window was either rolled down or removed, however I don't see a window net. When did that come into being in NASCAR?

[Noose]

I asked Larry to post this question as I believed it was worth discussion and a final answer will be posted by the board today.

The one thing I am curious about is why is there a feeling that the windows should be cut out of these when I have never seen the windows cut out of other NASCAR bodies for other classes?

[MSwiss]

Potential marshalling problems was discussed by the IRRA BoD.

Cutting the side windows out is DOA. No one is for it but it was good Larry brought it up.

[tonyp]

Didn't they still run some convertibles in with the hardtops in the '60s?... I won't even ask.

LOL...

[MG Brown]

... however I don't see a window net. When did that come into being in NASCAR?

NascarCrash - Richard Petty 1970 Rebel 400, Darlington, SC

As mentioned above (hello? is this thing on?), the window net became first optional and then mandated as safety equipment after Richard Petty's "famous crash" at Darlington in 1970.

The film shows Petty's arm and head coming out of the side window while the car is still rolling following impact with the wall. It is only by a stroke of good luck that Petty did not either lose an arm or wasn't decapitated.

Didn't they still run some convertibles in with the hardtops in the '60s...

This is off the top of my head and if you want a more detailed answer you're welcome to do the research.

Convertibles ran in their own division in NASCAR in the late 1950s and early 1960s. I don't recall a time when convertibles ran in the Grand National division alongside hardtops after 1962.

[MSwiss]

FWIW, as a member of the IRRA BoD, I'll go on record as saying, as in this case with the side windows being cut out, just because it's realistic, I won't vote for it being allowed.

If realism was all-important, the IRRA would allow fighting after NASCAR races.

[Cheater]

Oh yeah? Can you show me where fighting is prohibited in the IRRA rules...

[Marty Stanley]

Here are some interesting websites:

NASCAR Convertible Division

NASCAR Tales and Stories

Richard Petty & His 1959 Daytona 500 Ride - it is a 1957 Oldsmobile Stocker

Heck, there was even an Edsel convertible that raced in 1959 - driven by Paul Bass.

Many of the racers did note that the convertibles ran about 10 mph slower than the hardtops. So they did develop a "convertible" class. I do believe this was the foundation of what we call "Nationwide" today.

Fighting after an IRRA event? Nonsense. All the fighting is supposed to happen BEFORE the race... at the tech table!

[Chris Barnes]

Where's the Big Yellow Trailer?

[Larry Mattingly]

I asked Larry to post this question as I believed it was worth discussion and a final answer will be posted by the board today.

The one thing I am curious about is why is there a feeling that the windows should be cut out of these when I have never seen the windows cut out of other NASCAR bodies for other classes?

I was painting a 1968 Charger, and it came to mind that in Western PA it was 'standard practice' to cut out the side windows back in the day. Made them handle better...

Thought I would bring it up now, as opposed to later.

I don't think it is an issue on the current NASCAR bodies, because they run windows, and the side net. Plus, if you removed the side windows from a .007" NASCAR body, it would quiver like a bowl of jello.

LM

[Hworth08]

Many of the racers did note that the convertibles ran about 10 mph slower than the hardtops. So they did develop a "convertible" class. I do believe this was the foundation of what we call "Nationwide" today.

Today's Nationwide series evolved from the National Sportsman division, sponsored by Permatex, that sprang from the Modified Special division in 1963 because the Modifieds were running short of the old coupe bodies.

It "may" could be said that the convertibles and Nationwide are the same as both divisions often raced on Saturday before the bigger Sunday race.

The convertibles were exactly the same as the Grand Nationals and it was legal to simply bolt a roof on a convertible to race on Sunday as was often done.

[Ron Hershman]

Back in the day... on some tracks they ran the windows up and some they ran the windows down.

Somewhere out there their is video of Richard Petty coming into the pits and rolling his window down as he came into the pits for a refreshing drink. Then he rolls the window back up as he is leaving the "pit box".

Here is a pic from 1969... Smokey Yunick's '69 Talladega Torino... the drivers window is UP!!!

[Marty Stanley]

Ron,

Ain't that when they really ran "Stock Cars"?

Go into your local dealership, get a deal on a family sedan with a big motor, sign an agreement to literally paint the dealer's name on the side of the car and go racing...

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday!

427 Fords
426 Mopars
421 Pontiacs
425 Buicks
427 Chevrolets
425 Oldsmobiles

Yep, it sure was a bit different back in the day. Heck all the cars even looked different!

[Ron Hershman]

Ain't that when they really ran "Stock Cars"?

Yeah... and these "pussies" today complain the COTs don't handle.

It took "men" to drive/handle those cars back then.

[Marty Stanley]

You mean "real men"... like Buddy Baker?

Remember the tire technology in 1969... whatever there was.

"On March 24th Buddy Baker was at Talladega for a series of engineering tests on transmission durability. He drove test car #88, and it seemed possible that this all-out driver might break the 200 mile barrier. If he did he'd make history, but that history would always be subject to question unless the timing was official.

The rain out of the Atlanta race forced postponement of three other NASCAR Grand National races this week, and the officials were available. Chief NASCAR Timer and Scorer Joe Epton brought his timing equipment to Talladega... just in case.

The odds weren't good. Like the song says: "When it's a rainy night in Georgia, it seems like it's raining all over the world".

Last week more than 10 inches of rain fell on Alabama. On Monday it rained some more. On Tuesday morning there was another thunderstorm. The track was not only wet, but any rubber which had been embedded in the track was washed away. A washed down track is traditionally slower.

But the skies cleared, the sun came out and patches in the track started drying out. But it took a full dry track for tests
such as these. Noontime came and went, and by mid afternoon the track looked fit. Epton and his observers and the clocks were in position.

First runs were good for testing, but looked bad on the clocks. The speeds started at 194 and then moved up to 198.5 as
Baker "looked for the groove" and the pit crew kept adjusting to get the right chassis set-up.

Buddy Baker, 29, the 6'5" son of one of stock cars most colorful drivers, was ready and relaxed. He'd shot skeet the
afternoon before and expected to go fishing later in the day. He loves the outdoors and this was a holiday.

On the 30th lap, Joe Epton let out a whoop. The time was 47.857 and the speed was 200.096. Buddy and his Dodge Charger
Daytona had done it. The barrier was broken and they flagged Buddy in to tell him the good news. His name would now go into the world record books as the first driver to break the magic 200 mile per hour lap barrier.

The crew, the engineers, officials and Goodyear Tire crew went wild. History had been made, and they were all part of the scene. A stock car racer - their kind of racer - had done it.

But after a few minutes of celebration, things returned to normal. The engineers took over. The test was to go on. Buddy said: "you better keep watching, maybe I'll do it again."

Engineer Larry Rathgeb reminded Buddy that he was here for a test, not a race. "Just get out there and give us some good, hard steady laps and forget about racing. You've already got your record, so now help me get my test done. Then we'll all go fishing."

Buddy climbed back into the car and started methodically circling the track in "his groove". Joe Epton and his crew of
observers kept watching the clocks. It was obvious that Baker was still deadly serious about running hard on every lap.

The numbers on the clocks flicked away. All laps were close at 200 miles and two more were over. One was at 200.330
and a lap time of 47.807. Another was 200.447 and 47.773 seconds. Not only had the 200 mile mark been broken, but Buddy had bettered on three separate occasions. Now he settled down and ran steadily. That was his job. Today he was a test driver, not a racer."

200 mph in a Dodge Charger... Stock Car! No window net, a big body, and just a whole lot of horsepower! I'll bet that was one wild ride!

[Ron Hershman]

You mean "real men"... like Buddy Baker?

Yup... he was one... you know the kind... the ones who were always pushing a "wheelbarrow" in front of them at the track as they walked around.