26 replies to this topic

[Keep It In The Slot]

This is Stefano Mirabelli's car.

 

It's the same design as his last board, split into two parts in order to lower the center of gravity.

 

[bbr]

Brushless at ISRA worlds:

 

[stoo23]

Sadly, So far Stefano has NOT Had a great Experience at the World's.

 

I was led to believe he didn't have an Ideal Gear Ratio for Qualifying with the 32ES car and must have had Some issue in the early brackets of his Heat as he had a very Low Lap count on one of the Lanes.

 

I was actually Watching the 'Live' Feed of the F1 Heat he was in and was doing OK,.. when it would Seem the 'Magic Smoke', was Released from the Motor when on Black lane in around the 3rd Bracket,..

 

Whilst t was perhaps a seemingly good idea to go with a motor that Revved High and had Low inherent Torque, for the Inline F1 style cars, the general Grip and Speed of the event may have proven too much for that Style/Size of Motor

 

Bob Budge also had some Issues that killed His overall lap totals as well, but I have No idea what caused them.

 

Still,.. Early Days really

[MSwiss]

I was real impressed that he qualified 50th out of 102 racers, especially since he says he doesn't have experience with 1/32nd.

I watched where he wound up DNF'ing and I didn't actually see any smoke, but I'm not sure my computer monitor would pick that up, so I'm not entirely sure what failed.

If I remember correctly, there was a track call and then when the power came back on, his car moved about 2 inches and stopped.

So he appeared to call a track.

When the power came back on, his car didn't move, so the marshal gave it a push and the car got going.

He went around one more lap and car stopped for good and he had the marshal throw it to him.

IIRC, he had gone 97 laps.

He quoted the motor without the ESC weighed only 3 G.

That's almost hard for me to believe when I think about my tungsten weighted guide shoe weighs 3.5G.

If indeed, that's all it weighs, I cannot see how less than 3 G's of magnet, copper and steel could generate enough torque to power a car around without heating up.

If it gets hotter and hotter, eventually the neo mags will die.

[stoo23]

Hey Mike,.. yeah,... I am really Only 'assuming' the Smoke got out , because as you say he Did have the Issues you mentioned I just noticed that the guy that eventually Picked his car up, Looked at and then Smelled it and from His 'reaction' I just figured that was the Problem ,..whatever it was, Stefano certainly recognised the Issue was Terminal fairly quickly and immediately returned the car to his Box ,.. lol

 

I also agree with you regarding his Qual' positions, considering he Doesn't have much if Any previous experience in the 1/32 scale classes,.. and especially against such a HUGE and Quality field of what are relatively 'Experienced' 32 scale racers !!

 

I also Know and agree with you regarding the Weight / Size etc,.. but hey from what I have seen, similar 1103 style motors appear to ONLY weigh in at around 4.2 to 4.5 grams, Including the Supplied & attached Silicone Lead Wires,.. so perhaps a Mere 3 grams for the Motor Alone is Not inconceivable,.. but it could Seriously Compromise the motor if the Heat Build up started climbing through the Roof.

 

I think the overall Size and (Lack) of weight IS somewhat surprising as whilst I Did KNOW the smaller Drone motors Were Small, it was not until I actually held an 1106 motor in my Hands that the "My God it's TINY' reaction struck me,.. LOL,.. 1103's are almost Miniscule !!,..

 

Hopefully he will send me a more Detailed 'Post Mortem' when he gets back home,..

[bbr]

[Tim Neja]

I can't imagine why it makes sense to run brushless with brushed motors!! Completely apples and  oranges!  They need their OWN racing class's to truly have the best opportunity to grow brushless racing.  

[bbr]

Bob Budge wrote:

"Castricone had tried my 1/24 car in open practice and
managed 4.0 compared to his own car doing 3.8 so it
does seem the brushless motors we are using are still
at least 5% slower than strap motors. Let’s see what
develops over the next few years."

[Keep It In The Slot]

If indeed, that's all it weighs, I cannot see how less than 3 G's of magnet, copper and steel could generate enough torque to power a car around without heating up.

 

My testing / racing at Raceway 81 after 6 x 3 segmented races the BLDC is circa 30c and the Emax 1106/5200Kv motor is circa 36c

[jimht]

All other things being equal, brushless motors will run cooler because of the lack of friction and heat generated by the brushes in a brushed motor.

 

Just as with the neo FK motors, things go sideways when the heat is enough to effect the magnets.

 

Considering how we abuse the FK motors heatwise when we solder them to the chassis, it's unlikely that a bolted in brushless will have similar problems.

[Phil Smith]

 

All other things being equal, brushless motors will run cooler because of the lack of friction and heat generated by the brushes in a brushed motor.

 

I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

[Phil Smith]

I can't imagine why it makes sense to run brushless with brushed motors!! Completely apples and  oranges!  They need their OWN racing class's to truly have the best opportunity to grow brushless racing.  

 

 

Bob Budge wrote:

"Castricone had tried my 1/24 car in open practice and
managed 4.0 compared to his own car doing 3.8 so it
does seem the brushless motors we are using are still
at least 5% slower than strap motors. Let’s see what
develops over the next few years."

 

There's been a big push to get brushless accepted in open class in Europe for a while. And I think they have succeeded. But so what? At least so what in the US, because virtually no one races open class in the US.

 

Brussless needs it's own class as Tim pointed out. How will it ever be raced otherwise?

[stoo23]

Perhaps NOT in the US, but I CAN  easily see it being accepted and raced in the UK and quite possibly in Europe at the Many regular Club and regional Races and meetings etc,.. where for Cost reasons MANY people (with currently increasingly Tighter  Budgets) are looking for a more cost effective Motive force, when compared to an even Moderate Grp12 Program etc,.. let alone in any of the Local classes currently running ES type Strap motors.

 

Heck, I know I sure couldn't afford it !!!

 

I used to regularly race Our local Grp 20 and older Grp27 Wing classes when they were popular here but even back then I was finding the cost required to be properly competitive in Grp15 was beginning to be ... difficult.

 

There is No way I can afford to run Grp12 here in more recent times due to my lower general income.

 

Plus,. as I have become older I am also somewhat 'Over' the effort and time required to constantly 'Fettle' top performing Brushed motors,.. (which the Drone motors do NOT require at All !!),... hence my recent Scale and Retro racing using Tin Can motors,.. but even with them,,.. the inherent 'Internal Hippie' in me is concerned about the quantity of materials that simply become Garbage when the Tin Can brushes wear out and they become useless to continue racing with them.

 

I AM keenly interested in this Brushless development,.. on a purely technical interest let alone wishing to get to Play with them,.. on track,.. but We would HAVE to create a Class for them, as with our perhaps more limited racing here we don't have Any current classes that they Could run in, apart from full Open Wing cars as all other classes in Aus', 'define' specific motors.

 

I have Still purchased quite a few motors and ordered a number of ESC's to try them and Loan some cars out for other racing groups to try and to hopefully generate some interest.

 

My old good slotting friends, Mark Fox and Wayne & Cody Bramble are also interested, so collectively We may be able to get something useful and fun together locally

 

Plus I'm sure I'm Not the only Slotter here racing with a very Limited budget lol

[MSwiss]

Stewart,
I don't think laps per $$$ is keeping racers out of slot car tracks.

It's more available time and health concerns.

A friend/racer, Mark Rosenwinkel, raced his $12.95 Retro Hawk at least 20 races in our Wednesday night GTP class, and most likely won half the time.

That's a 12.95 motor that I made some $$ on, selling it to him.

Not a 12.95 motor from Ebay that only that motor company and the shipping company made money on.

Or a $50 ESC that only the maker and again, the shipper, made money on.

For someone on a tight budget, aren't putting those $50 ESC's in all your cars going to add up to a total less than cheap?

[MSwiss]

My post was referring specifically to the motor in Stefano's F1 car.

It appears my assessment that the tiny motor didn't have enough torque, was correct.

[zipper]

ISRA rules - don't know if it's official yet: brushless motors allowed in ES-32, F1-32 and ES-24.

[stoo23]

Hey Mike,

 

"I don't think laps per $$$ is keeping racers out of slot car tracks"

Perhaps Not,.. but Has been for myself in more recent times, having Lost my work and a lot of my Bank Balance with Covid

 

"It's more available time and health concerns"

Very Possibly, although I like a few of my Older racing buddies are Retired now (whether by Choice or Circumstance), so time perhaps Not an issue but with advancing Age ... Health, Yes,.. was suffering at the recent Flexi Enduro with severe Sciatic pain,..

 

"A friend/racer, Mark Rosenwinkel, raced his $12.95 Retro Hawk at least 20 races in our Wednesday night GTP class, and most likely won half the time"

Yes,.. I can appreciate and understand that possibility and Cost per Race Ratio.

I/We have had similarly comparable Performance, Reliability etc with the Plafit Cheetah and occasional SRP motors we had been using here on our smaller Flat tracks in Retro and other Scale classes.

Having previously never have had much personal Joy with Retro Hawks myself, I Should have Had You Sell me some

 

"That's a 12.95 motor that I made some $$ on, selling it to him"

"Not a 12.95 motor from Ebay that only that motor company and the shipping company made money on"

Oh Yes, I Fully understand AND agree Whole-heartedly with you in that !!

 

In fact as I was just suggesting to 'Pablo' the other day,... that I have ALWAYS firmly been a believer in the "Support Your Local Raceway" method, NOT the Buy everything from eBay or an Overseas supplier.

 

In fact since getting back into racing firstly with Retros 10 or 12 years ago, when we first started them here, I think the ONLY products I Didn't purchase from an actual Shop/Raceway here, were some Retro bodies from Victor and that was mainly due to them not yet being available here in aany numbers .... and the fact that his were also particularly Excellent

 

BUT,.. I was Not actually trying to Defend the Brushless Motor & ESC Combo as a Cost OR Performance 'Alternative' to the Cheap & (Usually) Cheerful 'Tin Can' motors,.. I was merely commenting on my personal distaste in having to eventually Throw them 'In the Bin' as such.

 

My Cost/Performance Comparison was mainly with Faster Motor Classes, that Use Group 12  or Cobalt Strap motors.

 

I am unsure about realistic Grp 12 costs in the US per se, but I honestly can't afford even a 'Moderate' High End Grp12 Program here. Least not one that would satisfy My own personal performance criteria as far as competitiveness is concerned.

 

"Or a $50 ESC that only the maker and again, the shipper, made money on"

Yes understood, but I am sure If these do become popular and (put into larger Production), as both Stefano and Richard & Bob wish to do, I am sure some arrangements could be made for Local purchase etc but hey, is Early days and I am (in effect), purchasing an 'Early Adopter' virtual BETA unit from Stefano, for testing and evaluation etc, Not a Mainstream 'distributed' product.

 

"For someone on a tight budget, aren't putting those $50 ESC's in all your cars going to add up to a total less than cheap?"

Hmmm, well,.. perhaps yes,.. depending on HOW Many CARS one actually has and uses / races regularly, Plus it would (in Effect) be theoretically a 'One Off' purchase and that is also Not considering the ability to Swap the ESC's from Car to Car when and where necessary, using appropriate connectors and mounting methods.

 

Please understand I am NOT on the "This will Replace ALL Brushed Motors" bandwagon in Any shape or form,.. just Intrigued by a New Modern technology that could prove to be both Fast, Fun and accessible,.. especially to all these Younger 'Whippersnappers" that are Into this technology and want perhaps a relatively easily maintained device.

 

I'm just a Keenly interested Observer and Interested in the technology and possibilities

Apologies for the lengthy ;Post' btw cheers all

[Phil Smith]

If the tracks don't make money they close down and the there's no place to race. At least that's how it is in the US.

 

US mail order has probably done as much to kill slot cars as anything.

[stoo23]

Absolutely !! So many guys I race against here buy nearly everything On Line,..

I just don't get it.

Like you say,.. if you Don't support the Raceway,.. then you invariably end up with Nowhere to race !!

 

I actually purchased My Drone motors from a great friendly & helpful local shop and having looked on eBay, they were cheaper as well LOL

[MSwiss]

Stoo23,

Thanks for the well thought out response.

 

All points well taken.

 

I'll just add to your "can't afford even a 'Moderate' High End Grp12 Program here".

 

I've mentioned before, that during a monthly G12 race, a newer racer's G12 motor failed the first heat, I lent him a car that I had been practicing with earlier.

 

It was a slightly less than state of the art, older G12 car, but with my CR106 motor.

 

Anytime he was in a middle lane, which didn't depend much on experienced driving, he would turn fast lap against at least a few other top racers with top cars and motors.

 

Not by much, but he was usually a few .01's faster.

 

Granted, this is a motor that will only last 2 races, but it's still cheap HP, without retro fitting cars with motor brackets and electronics.

 

This brushless stuff is all very interesting, but as far as wing racing, get back to me when they start racing each, and let's see what happens when Racer 1's car is 3 ft. faster to the Deadman, than Racer 2's car, or how well the electronics stay attached to the flimsy (wing car) platform, in a moderate or worse, wreck.

 

Right now, I'm way, way, way more worried about a dying customer base, and tire rubber, than affordable strong HP.

[stoo23]

Thanks for the reply Mike

 

Yes,.. I must admit I TOO would be a bit concerned about keeping the ESC 'in place' after a few 'typical' Wing car crashes

 

"Right now, I'm way, way, way more worried about a dying customer base, and tire rubber, than affordable strong HP"

 

Ahhh Yes,.. I can FULLY appreciate that !!!,.. there are often Not that many Non 'White-Haired' racers at races these days

[bbr]

Now that BL is "legal" to race.
The motor guys can develop the motor.
Like lighter bells, magnets, # of poles, winds, size...
I say start with less poles for more rpms!

[jimht]

"Right now, I'm way, way, way more worried about a dying customer base, and tire rubber, than affordable strong HP."

 

That's because you think the business is only about organized King of the Hill racing, even though you make more profit from other revenue streams.

 

I constantly get customers of all ages that have never seen slot cars before...it has never really been that difficult to sell them a slot car if they are interested, AND their purchase has little to do with the fact that races occur.

 

The more economical it is for them to go faster, the easier it is to get them to do so...whether they care about organized racing or not.

 

At one time everyone could go really fast with modifications to basic RTR cars and motors.

 

Chassis technology has been pretty static for decades. Motor costs are the problem. It's not unusual to see someone with thousands of dollars tied up in motors, even c-cans, and this is not because they are good reliable motors, it's because they are fragile junk designed to last for 3-5 minutes thanks to the fact that we allow motor changes between heats.

 

The advent of FAST sealed FK motors is a direct result of insane prices for c-can and cobalt motors. However, even a $24 Gp12 sealed FK is more expensive than a comparable brushless motor and the brushless motor will run waaaaaay longer.

 

The initial purchase of an esc  for less than a c-can motor is not an issue for someone who wants something as fast as a cobalt motor to play with...and it looks like there will be cheap brushless motors that will compete with cobalts.

 

Change your view and think about selling fast motors to whoever wants them, instead of telling them they need to spend thousands of dollars to be "competitive".

 

[Phil Smith]

Jim, you're always talking about customers that don't care about racing. At every track I've ever raced at, non-race days would either be completely dead (nobody at the track other than employees) or there would be a hand full of racers there practicing and working on their cars. I've gone to a track many times to practice and be the only person there.

 

So I don't get it. You think a track can thrive with no racing? That seems impossible to me. Maybe a really strong party business would change things I guess.

[MSwiss]

Jim,

 

for someone who wants something as fast as a cobalt motor to play with...

 

That person barely exists in my world.

 

I had 1 or 2 guys that would come blast around with fast cars, for fun.

 

I think as soon as they realized they were burning off tires and I wasn't going to let them drive around, dragging the track, they lost interest.

 

Dads with deep pockets occasionally want to buy a wing car car for their kid, as a plaything.

 

I try to discourage it, explaining things like tire wear "it's like taking a funny car too go buy groceries".

 

Some ignore me and wind up with one, one way or the other.

 

When they are sitting there, on a chair, full punched, not paying attention to their car, the dads get that disappointed look on their face.