22 replies to this topic

[studentdriver]

Can someone explain the use for 16D motors? I see them used in drags quite a bit. The reason why I'm asking is, with cheaper solutions that are smaller and lighter weight what's the need for the 16D motor size? Sorry, I'm trying to ask it the best way possible without trying to make it seem like 16D motors are horrible.. basically I took a little break from slot cars (around the time that 16D seemed to gain popularity)... my experiences have been like C-can setups right to stuff like the Pro Slot Euro sizes and I didn't understand why people would want to use the larger, heavier motors. 

 

I guess with bracket racing drags being light isn't always a concern but I've seen wing cars and flexi cars using the 16D motors.

 

Please just help me understand where 16D motor fits into the world of slot car racing.

 

Mike

[Samiam]

The tooling is paid for.

[Cheater]

MIke,

 

It's basically a historical timeline.

 

When slots came along, the motors that were first used came either from model railroading or from Oriental motors suppliers' catalogs.

The first can motor was the 36D, a big, heavy motor that everyone in slots used in the middle '60s. The 16D was a lighter, smaller version of the 36D that fit better under certain bodies and provided better handling. The C-can was a development of the 16D for the slot car industry by folks like Champion and others. Then came the even-lighter strap motors and of course, the FK-style motors, again sourced as a standard item from Oriental motor manufacturers' catalogs.

Others may post more detailed info, but I think this is the broad and rough version of the story.

[studentdriver]

Cool, thanks! I did see (after I posted this, doh) about the history of the 16D motor (in a stickied thread here) and I see that slot car motors have evolved over the years (seems like 60+ years now). I've been in the hobby since I was a kid (I think I started around 10 years old?)
 
I guess the one question is though, while 36D motors don't seem to be used at all in slot cars, why does the 16D still seem like a fairly popular motor? Again, I'm not here to bash the 16D at all! I'm just trying to understand if it does come down to maybe cost (as Samian has pointed out) or maybe it actually makes sense for drag cars? Also maybe about 20 years ago my local track didn't have any 16D motors really ever. Then when I took a break they seemed to come from nowhere... guessing a few vendors maybe saw an opportunity to sell 16Ds as cheaper alternative? No idea...
 
I have no issues with folks who've had 16D motors and love them and they have tons of parts... it's just odd (to me) maybe that they "came back" and are still being sold new when there are similar (and even cheaper) solutions.
 
Also since I don't even own any 16Ds, I was thinking maybe I was missing out. I don't necessarily want to buy one at this point because it would be an oddball in my motor collection.  I don't even know if I have a chassis that would fit a 16D motor.

[Bill from NH]

16Ds are rebuildable motors. When they don't run right, you can repair them. When an oriental FK doesn't run right, you throw it away. 16Ds were the main entry-level motors until the early 2000s, today replaced by the smaller and lighter FK. There are still lots of 16Ds in the boxes of slot racers, that's the main reason why they haven't all been replaced by the smaller FK.

 

The only thing you need to maintain a FK is a tube of oil. 16Ds need oil, but also a comm lathe, zapper, brushes and springs, armatures, bushings, arm spacers. And various tools and motor jigs can be used with them. These are all items a raceway could sell. But if they only run FK motors, they don't get any incomes from selling these items. You can argue which is better until the sun goes down. You'll never be right or wrong.

 

I started running 16D motors in '96, my first FK in '97. Both are fun for different reasons.

[studentdriver]

Thanks for this info. The one thing is, you could get the Pro Slot set-ups. They aren't too pricey for what you get and if you want to open them up and replace arm and brushes. This is in no way a paid advertisement for Pro Slot 4000/9000 motors but in my mind they are better than the throw-away motors in that you can fix them up. I'm just replacing the arm in a 4002FK (which has been discontinued) and testing it out! Maybe you are already aware of this but figured I'd mention it. That said, unless you are really rich I don't think there is a home magnet zapper for poly-neo magnets (which stinks).

 
It seems like maybe some tracks use different motors and promote different things... so regionally there might be different options depending on the track, etc. I guess that might be a reason why I wasn't aware of 16D motors even though they were out for years (my track just didn't really carry them at first).

[jimht]

Initially 16D, 26D and 36D slot car motors weren't actually designed to be easily rebuilt. It quickly became obvious that not only could they be rebuilt, they could be made to go faster.

 

The rebuilt 16D was the all-around go-to motor until the American manufacturers saw a market for a better rebuildable motor: the C-can, primarily produced by Mura and Champion, but they could never be as cheap as the Chinese-made 16D.

 

Ken MacDowell at Parma, needing a less-costly motor for RTR use, saved some bucks by having the Chinese make a rebuildable 16D hybrid that was a less expensive alternative to the C-can.

 

Trinity followed suit when they needed a motor for their cars.

 

Where the 16D was out there in the hundreds of thousands, C-cans were just available in tens of thousands... for example, Van Rossem tried to unload some 10,000 motor batches of Muras during the '90s and that wasn't a really huge number of motors compared to what Parma and Trinity were buying.

 

Parma was doing so well with the 16D that Dan Debella at Pro Slot decided to produce his own version... to compete with the rebuilt Pama and Trinity 16D motors that were dominating organized low-end racing.

 

So, essentially, there are so many rebuildable 16D motors out there that are just fine for low-end racing on both road courses and drag strips that they are still being used and are quite popular.

 

If Parma hadn't quit getting them, we would probably still see them in RTR cars instead of the FK.

 

They work, they're rebuildable, and as long as you're racing on a driver's track and not a punchbowl King they are fast enough to have fun with.   

[Paul Menkens]

One other thing that everyone who answered you knows but overlooked is that the 36D, 26D, and 16D motors were made in Japan by Mabuchi, the world's largest maker of small electric motors. The chances are pretty good that your car uses Mabuchi motors to power your electric windows.

 

According to the 1967 Technical Journal Of Model Car Racing published by Car Model Magazine, the 16D, also known in the beginning as the 500A, was the first one, also available with the pinion end being the can end instead of the endbell end, as the 500B, the 550A or B was also known as the 26D and faster then a stock 16D. The 26D was also known as the 600A or B and was an inbetween size between the 16 and 36Ds. A lot of 16D and 36D motors were built to run the pinion on either end. I was surprised when I looked this up just now to see that the 16D came before the 36D; I always thought it was the other way around.

 

Early on there was a small backyard industry built around rewinding these motors for more speed and torque; companies like Dyna Rewind, Cobra, Lenz, and U-Go, along with larger ones like Champion, Mura, and Dynamic doing the same. After a while Mura, Champion, and Mura had their own tooling made. as Mabuchi wanted to get more into the small industrial motor market and less into slot car motors.

 

I have Mabuchi motors of all three sizes (they also made a smaller can size, the 13D or 300B, but it never caught on) that are nearing 60 years old that still run great. You don't need a comm lathe, dynamic balancer, or magnet zapper, as several companies will perforn these services at reasonable rates. One that lists this service on his web site is Dom's Raceway in NJ.

 

If you want more info on Mabuchi, check out their website.

 

One last thing, most any chassis that will fit a D-can will also fit a C can. 

[Bill from NH]

If you're using D and C-cans in the same chassis, be aware there are 5mm and 6mm bushings used in both, depending upon which manufacturer made them. 

 

Mike, if you just want a 16D for your collection, don't spend $20+ for a new one. Go down to your local raceway and ask if anybody has a used one you can buy cheap or get free.

[gotboostedvr6]

D-cans are workhorses and tolerate heat better than the PS4xxx Euro type cans. I still argue a C-can is the best of all worlds. The slowest C-can arm is a 16C and the fastest is whatever open you can think of. You can use super cheap and weak ceramic magnets up to super strong neos and cobalts to fit C-cans.

[studentdriver]

Initially 16D, 26D and 36D slot car motors weren't actually designed to be easily rebuilt. It quickly became obvious that not only could they be rebuilt, they could be made to go faster.

 

The rebuilt 16D was the all-around go-to motor until the American manufacturers saw a market for a better rebuildable motor: the C-can, primarily produced by Mura and Champion, but they could never be as cheap as the Chinese-made 16D.

 

Ken MacDowell at Parma, needing a less-costly motor for RTR use, saved some bucks by having the Chinese make a rebuildable 16D hybrid that was a less expensive alternative to the C-can.

 

Trinity followed suit when they needed a motor for their cars.

 

Where the 16D was out there in the hundreds of thousands, C-cans were just available in tens of thousands... for example, Van Rossem tried to unload some 10,000 motor batches of Muras during the '90s and that wasn't a really huge number of motors compared to what Parma and Trinity were buying.

 

Parma was doing so well with the 16D that Dan Debella at Pro Slot decided to produce his own version... to compete with the rebuilt Pama and Trinity 16D motors that were dominating organized low-end racing.

 

So, essentially, there are so many rebuildable 16D motors out there that are just fine for low-end racing on both road courses and drag strips that they are still being used and are quite popular.

 

If Parma hadn't quit getting them, we would probably still see them in RTR cars instead of the FK.

 

They work, they're rebuildable, and as long as you're racing on a driver's track and not a punchbowl King they are fast enough to have fun with.    

 

Great, thanks for the history and it makes sense why 16D is still popular today!

[studentdriver]

If you're using D and C-cans in the same chassis, be aware there are 5mm and 6mm bushings used in both, depending upon which manufacturer made them. 

 

Mike, if you just want a 16D for your collection, don't spend $20+ for a new one. Go down to your local raceway and ask if anybody has a used one you can buy cheap or get free.

 

There was a fellow racer at the track I go to and he offered a 16D arm (since I was looking to try out an X12 arm).. I guess I could ask though! Maybe pick one up cheap like you said

[studentdriver]

D-cans are workhorses and tolerate heat better than the PS4xxx Euro type cans. I still argue a C-can is the best of all worlds. The slowest C-can arm is a 16C and the fastest is whatever open you can think of. You can use super cheap and weak ceramic magnets up to super strong neos and cobalts to fit C-cans.

 

A lot of my own experience was with C-can originally and I do find that they are very useful and have a lot of options (sometimes too many to understand for me). I moved over to the Euro type cans when some local series switched to the 4002FK. It was cheaper and for 20 bucks the motors performed well enough. I can say I've bought around six-seven Euro 4002FKs and I don't think I've ever had one burn up, even with some pretty wild gearing. I know other folks have had some issues but again, for 20 bucks you can pretty much do everything except the magnets. That said, I know folks were buying them in bulk to get the one 4002FK to rule them all... I actually had six because I ran a few different chassis and liked to play around. Now that 4002]FK series have died down, I'm replacing some of the arms with X12 from Pro Slot just for fun.

 

Growing up I raced Womps and then also did Intl 15 when people were racing them in the area. I guess the Womps I raced maybe used a 16D but it seemed much different than the open can ones I see today. The open can ones almost seem like large C-cans.

 

So looking back, maybe I did race a 16D but just didn't know it was a 16D?? It was a Parma motor I believe.

[studentdriver]

One other thing that everyone who answered you knows but overlooked is that the 36D, 26D, and 16D motors were made in Japan by Mabuchi, the world's largest maker of small electric motors. The chances are pretty good that your car uses Mabuchi motors to power your electric windows.

 

According to the 1967 Technical Journal Of Model Car Racing published by Car Model Magazine the 16D, also known in the beginning as the 500A, was the first one, also available with the pinion end being the can end instead of the endbell end, as the 500B, the 550A or B was also known as the 26D and faster then a stock 16D. The 26D was also known as the 600A or B and was an inbetween size between the 16 and 36Ds. A lot of 16D and 36D motors were built to run the pinion on either end. I was surprised when I looked this up just now to see that the 16D came before the 36D; I always thought it was the other way around.

 

Early on there was a small backyard industry built around rewinding these motors for more speed and torque, companies like Dyna Rewind, Cobra, Lenz, and U-Go, along with larger ones like Champion, Mura, and Dynamic doing the same. After a while Mura, Champion, and Mura had their own tooling made as Mabuchi wanted to get more into the small industrial motor market and less into slot car motors.

 

I have Mabuchi motors of all three sizes (they also made a smaller can size, the 13D or 300B, but it never caught on) that are nearing 60 years old that still run great. You don't need a comm lathe, dynamic balancer, or magnet zapper, as several companies will perforn these services at reasonable rates. One that lists this service on his web site is Dom's Raceway in New Jersey.

 

If you want more info on Mabuchi, check out their website.

 

One last thing, most any chassis that will fit a D-can will also fit a C can. 

 

Dom has a track in his basement. That is waaay cool.  Seems like he's geared (pun intended) towards \Retro style of racing which is pretty cool. He's not too far away from me (around 1h-20 mins or so?)

 

I just had one motor redone by Pro Slot. It was a double ball bearing motor with an X12 arm so it was worth getting the arm redone and the magnets rezapped.

[team burrito]

IMHO the 16D is a dinosaur and the mini-motor is the way of the future. You can go with the stock Chinese armature, a Big Dog, a Scorpion, or even an X12. It can be had with ceramic, poly neo, and hard-sintered magnets. Mate it with a JK white endbell, copper brush hoods, and ball bearings and you'll have yourself one killer motor.

 

Just another option about this subject.

[gotboostedvr6]

Dom is 40 min from me, where are you located?

[studentdriver]

IMHO the 16D is a dinosaur & the mini-motor is the way of the future. You can go with the stock Chinese armature, a Big Dog, a Scorpion, or even an X12. It can be had with ceramic, poly neo, and hard-sintered magnets. Mate it with a JK white endbell, copper brush hoods, and ball bearings & you'll have yourself one killer motor.

 

Just another option about this subject.

 

So I like the euro style smaller motors myself, yes.. But I do have an appreciation for C-can motors as well. They do seem to be able to run hotter/faster to some degree (oh man the puns) (or at least they have the option to). The only slight negative I am aware of with C-can with that they do sit a bit higher than the smaller euro style motors. Not exactly sure about weight difference.. I think they can be similar in weight depending on magnets, etc..

 

From this topic I found an appreciation for the 16D! Would I run one consistently? Probably not but I'm interested enough to maybe check one out!

 

BTW, I'm rebuilding an old 4002-fk with an X-12 proslot arm. What are the part numbers I could use for

 

1) jk endbell

2) copper brush hoods?

 

I don't know if I have the patience to do the bearings alignment.

[studentdriver]

Dom is 40 min from me, where are you located?

 

Not to get too specific, I'm in upper Bucks County, PA. My favorite track is Fasttracks in Bally, PA. They have three different tracks and a drag strip. A fourth track coming soon (tri-oval). If wanna go fast, the Hillclimb they have is pretty fast!

 

I'm looking to get over to SpeedZone sometime in the near future but just haven't found the time.

[NJ Racer]

IMHO the 16D is a dinosaur and the mini-motor is the way of the future.

 

Brushless motors are just a matter of time...

 

 

[studentdriver]

Sure, I would love to dabble in brushless but find me an eESC that doesn't cost 60+ bucks and has availability... it's a tough find. I heard of latency (slowness on trigger pull) with the Talon Castle ESC which makes me not want to dive into one of those..

[team burrito]

In my opinion, the 16D is a boat anchor and the cost of making it into a race motor can cost as much as a good C-can motor. The lighter Euro-type cans, hand-wound armature, and all that other stuff can cost over $120. The 16D was created to be a low-cost race motor, but all of that went to hell in the '90s. Another problem is not all motors are rockets, so you have to build yourself a lot of motors to find a good one.

 

The C-cans aren't much better and there's still no guarantee that they'll be fast. They can be built with greater precision and better components. One time, I took my time to build a motor and it was a dog. The next time, i just threw one together and it was a rocket. Like I said, you never know what you're going to get.

 

Cahoza make some of the best motors in the world, but they're not cheap. I bought one of their motors and it wasn't any better than the ones I built. I had to replace the armature, open up the magnets, and instal ball bearings and it runs better now. I'm an old school guy and actually like to build my own stuff.

 

I prefer the mini-motor because of its size and versatility. You can this motor in any flavor you want and it will be fast. I've had problems with the Puppy Dog and American-wound Hawk armatures, but the Big Dogs and X12s are great. The P/S Scorpion is a fast motor as well. A fully-blueprinted mini-motor is like a little C-can, but fits better in most chassis. The funny thing is it weighs just as much as a light weight C-can motor and it's the same height.

 

I have all of these 16D and C-can motors sitting in a box, waiting to be raced and they just sit there. The mini-motors are what we race out here and we've never been happier.

 

Race what you like and race to win - see you at the track!

[Bucky]

When I started racing in the late '90s ,a Parma or Trinity Chinese-wound 16D was used for our local racing. The motors were cheap and armatures were disposable. Prices eventually got out of hand with American armatures and lighter-weight setups with stronger magnets. The 16D filled the niche of disposable FK motors before we had FK motors.

They're a nice platform for easily-rebuildable cheap motors, and in some ways I wish the hobby was still interested in racing them. I'm probably just being nostalgic though, as the various versions of FK motors offer performance, price, and ease use advantages.

[Bill from NH]

If FKs came with replaceable brushes and brush arms, they'd be even better. Then they wouldn't have to be thrown away when the brushes wear out.