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New IRRA® approved bodies


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#51 Lloyd Lawson

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 12:36 AM

I just painted and mounted a Ford long-nose Torino on my son's retro stock car chassis. I believe the body is too narrow. I like the length of the nose but I had to cut the front fenders for tire clearance. He won't be racing it in class, just hot lapping with Dad :) . After it is wiped out I'll switch him to a Fairlane. The body was also paper thin on the sides so I don't think it will last long.

I am a newbie and don't want to start trouble but the Fairlane fits the Retro dimensions better if you want to run a Ford.




#52 Noose

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 07:17 PM

The following G-Force Racing Products Kirby Ti22 has been approved. Part number GFR-100B for .010" and GFR-100C for .015". It is also available in .007" but we all know that's not legal. ;)

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#53 Mark Greene

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 08:11 PM

Thank you to the IRRA board for granting us approval.

Thank you to Noose, TonyP, Randy Kohr, and Dale Granger for all your input with this body and those to come. ;)

I'd also like to add, these bodies won't be legal at R4/2 as they will only be shipping to distributors Monday or Tuesday. Depends on how much of a R4 hangover I have. :laugh2: :laugh2:

Mike will have some Friday at Tom Thumb.

And here is a picture that shows the detail a little better. Painted by Noose of course!

gforce_kirby_Ti22.jpg

gfr100kirby.jpg

#54 NJ Racer

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 10:48 PM

Mark:

Very nice body. Can you comment on the integrity of your .007" version?

Joe:

"It is alos available in .007" but we all know that's not legal"
The most recent body rule allows .007" bodies and is very clear with respect to flimsiness and cites how it can be corrected, but to say the .007 version is not legal is confusing. What's missing then?

"All approved Can-Am bodies are listed in the "Approved Body Lists" section. All bodies must be representative of
pre-1970 cars. Note: It is requested, in keeping with the spirit of retro racing, that bodies not be any less than .007"
thick on the sides. Any body found to be flimsy or a detriment to marshaling will need to be corrected by the racer.
Tape or body armor may be used to achieve the desired side thickness"


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#55 Rick

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 11:11 PM

The bodies are supposed to be pulled from .010" thickness but when you pull them, the sides will get thinner than .010".

So they determined that .007" was minimum on the sides, to leave some jiggle room for the vacuum procedure.
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#56 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 06:54 AM

Passing tech is a racer issue, not a manufacturer issue. I merely produce a product and I will pull whatever thickness a customer wants from .007" to .040".

That being said, most of the retro bodies my raceway sells are in fact .007" and I've seen those same bodies race in Retro East and pass tech. I believe Red Fox pulls nothing but .007" bodies? At least I haven't seen anything but .007".

If retro/IRRA doesn't want .007" bodies, then that should be specified. Let's say a .007" body ends up with a .005" side, once it is painted it will meet the .007" side thickness.?

Ray, I think you already know our .007" bodies are more consistent then most and also remain thicker then most because of our manufacturing process and material being used. ;)

In the end, they are available any way a customer may want them.

#57 Noose

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 06:55 AM

Correct, Rick. We have to explain things a lot to Ray. His absences for long periods of time cause this. :laugh2:

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#58 Tex

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:08 AM

Must be the scrapple.
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#59 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:11 AM

Correct Rick. We have to explain things a lot to Ray. His absences for long periods of time cause this. :laugh2:

If that is indeed the case Noose, I guess you will be DQing a lot of racers this weekend???

I'd be happy to pull nothing but .010", it makes my life a lot easier. But remember what I said, Red Fox bodies are all .007" and I'd bet anything Hershman, Kisling, Marshall, and many others run this weekend started as a sheet of .007" polycarbonate.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just being realistic.

#60 Noose

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:12 AM

That being said, most of the retro bodies my raceway sells are in fact .007" and I've seen those same bodies race in Retro East and pass tech. I believe Red Fox pulls nothing but .007" bodies?

You are correct that some have used .007" bodies coming into tech the first time.

When they leave for the last time there is usually tape along the full side to meet the .007" thickness required. ;)

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#61 tonyp

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:39 AM

I'd love to see thicker bodies so they last longer...

How about IRRA legal bodies can only be .010" or they are not legal if there is also a thin version. Makes it simpler for the racers and tracks.

Would for sure weed out the bodies.

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#62 Rob968323

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:45 AM

Nice work on that body, Mark. Where can we get some?
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#63 Rick

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:45 AM

I'd love to see thicker bodies so they last longer...

10-4 on that one. If IRRA can mandate no tire changes, they can surely mandate .010" bodies only. I think D3 has?
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#64 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:01 AM

Where can we get some?

Hi Rob,

We are releasing them this weekend at the R4. Monday when I return I'll be filling my distributor orders and filling our raceway stock. The fastest way to get one might be to order one from Tom Thumb as he will be the first raceway to have them.

If you don't mind waiting til next week, you can order direct from our racewayat (717) 832-3170 or your local raceway will be able to get them from Eagle by the end of next week.

Thanks for asking.

#65 JerseyJohn

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:04 AM

Good job, Marko!!!

What's next?
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#66 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:08 AM

LOL, thanks, John.

It's a secret! I can tell you we are currently making molds for all IRRA classes. including a Chevy Nascar for Ricky! :D

#67 John Streisguth

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:12 AM

We need more choices for the retro Stock Cars, that's for sure.
"Whatever..."

#68 Rick

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:18 AM

I sure HOPE someone is making us some Chevy bodies? Tired of looking at Mopars. LOL.
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#69 Noose

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:49 AM

If that is indeed the case Noose, I guess you will be DQing a lot of racers this weekend???

No DQ'ing. Supplying a lot of tape perhaps and helping guys get it right.

We want guys to race so it is to everyone's benefit that they present a body that meets the specs. The longer it takes to tech, the longer it is going to make the day.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#70 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:00 AM

Yep, and none of the bodies being teched this weekend are G-Force bodies, but some will be .007". So why make a issue of me making .007" avail?

I guess what I'm saying is, instead of making .007" illegal, you've given the racers a way around the .010" rule and they have continued use of .007" bodies. I'm just offering the same as the others. :scratch_one-s_head:

#71 jimht

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:29 AM

tonyp said:

How about IRRA legal bodies can only be .010" or they are not legal if there is also a thin version.

I agree, only I would change that "or" to an "and".
Slippery slope here...
a manufacturer could produce an even thinner (.006", .005"...) body that could be made race legal with tape.

Just because a product exists doesn't mean it should exist.
Thinner bodies handle better.
Thinner bodies cost more in the long run.
Thinner bodies appeal to the SCM in all of us.
That's why they should go away.
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#72 NJ Racer

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:32 AM

The experienced racer knows that...

Body armor should not be used to build up the gauge of the side panels as it will have a serious adverse effect on the intended handling characteristcs of a legal .007" body. By doing this you are adding .010", resulting in a total gauge of .017"+. Of course there is the racer who will add strapping tape to prevent the body armor from disengaging, then all hell really breaks loose on the track. :angry:

My point is if it measures .007" it is legal according to the rulz. Reinforce your body sparingly and carefully and you will have a car that handles well and will be legal. Don't just stack that crap on to get through tech. ;)

For the newbies... any Ti22 with its legal .007"-.010" flat sides still have a significant amount of side to side movement, which is why they handle so well if properly set up. Over do the reinforcement and it destroys the handling characteristics of the body.

See you at the track soon enough. :)
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#73 tonyp

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:37 AM

If all the bodies were thicker, the handling would be the same, it is all relative. You would not have to put $3 worth of body armor on them and they would last more than a race.

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#74 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:46 AM

I agree 100% Tony, and would have no issue only making .010" or thicker bodies only. As stated above that only makes my job easier.

I've got a problem with everyone else has been doing it for how long now, but it only becomes a problem now because I said I'd make them available??? What the heck is that about???

#75 NJ Racer

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:48 AM

Tony,

All your cars are "stuck" to the track regardless. LOL!
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#76 NJ Racer

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:57 AM

Long live 007!!!

And to the BoD, don't forget all the raceways that have $$$ invested in retail inventory.
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#77 tonyp

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:06 AM

Like body armor...

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#78 NJ Racer

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:08 AM

Like body armor



I'd rather see more of those pin hole stars used.
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#79 Cheater

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:10 AM

I've got a problem with everyone else has been doing it for how long now, but it only becomes a problem now because I said I'd make them available??? What the heck is that about???

Mark,

I didn't see anyone saying that it was a problem that you were pulling .007" bodies. Noose just pointed out that IRRA requires .010" bodies.

I sure didn't read anything singling you out...

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#80 NJ Racer

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:25 AM

Where does it say that Greg? What am I missing?
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#81 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:27 AM

I didn't see anyone saying that it was a problem that you were pulling .007" bodies. Noose just pointed out that IRRA requires .010" bodies.

Do they? Because a lot are using .007", that's proven to me by the fact that I already have more .007" on order than I do .010".

Will Red Fox bodies be legal this weekend? if so, .010" must not be mandatory?

Also, did Noose need to point out the .007" issue when announcing our approval? Did he do that when he annouced O/S approvals or Red Fox approvals? So who made a issue of it?

To be honest, I'm sick to death of all the slot car drama! To the point I think I'm canceling my trip to Ohio. This just isn't much fun trying to guess what we can and can't do and the rules seem to be different depending on who you are. :(

#82 mam2f

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:38 AM

Gents,

I'm a rookie and new to IRRA, but I didn't like the new gen really thin bodies. They just felt too flimsy... I am used to the old Lancer bodies from the '60s and '70s.

So... I chose the Electric Dreams 917 (0.020" PETG)... and Victor at TrueScale graciously molded some Lola coupes for me in (gasp) :o 0.030" PETG.

Both bodies seem pretty solid and able to take some punishment. They weigh about 16.5 grams painted with interior.

That said... I'll probably get smoked by someone running a 0.007" body... :shok:

Thanks,
Mark Miller

#83 Noose

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:49 AM

The rules that went into effect 9/1/08 have had the thickness stipulation.

Bodies on the list that may have been previously approved for use and on the list prior to the rule requirement / statement of .007 for the sides could be less but it is the racer's responsibility to meet the requirements.

How a region implements the rules is not within the control of the board. For Retro East we implement the rules as they are written and that means that bodies must meet the .007 side thickness.

The R4/2 is being run under IRRA rules so the bodies used should meet the spec.

Body makers can make what they want and raceways can sell what they want. We approve bodies based on the rules of meeting the type of car for the period intended. If a body purchased by someone does not meet the specification it must be brought into spec by them.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#84 Cheater

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:59 AM

Where does it say that, Greg? What am I missing?

I probably shouldn't have said "requires" but here's the applicable text from the rules:

As a reminder, it is requested, in keeping with the spirit of retro racing, that bodies for all classes except the Retro Stock Car Class not be any less than .007" thick on the sides. Any body found to be flimsy or a detriment to marshaling will need to be corrected by the racer. Tape or body armor may be used to achieve the desired side thickness.

If using a JK body please ensure you are obtaining one that has a "B" after the part number.

As I believe it to be a physical impossibility to vacuum-form a body and not have the sides end up thinner than the top side, doesn't requiring .007" sides indirectly suggest that the body has to be formed from stock of greater thickness?

And does not the "B" suffix on a JK body part number denote .010" thickness?

Look, the BoD has discussed the body thickness situation at tremendous length and we still don't have all the answers. The tape on the sides procedure was a way not to have to bounce people from tech for body thickness. If some racers are taking advantage of that, then maybe we'll have to revisit the body rules.

Mark, IMO you are overreacting here. Please chill out.

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#85 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 11:05 AM

The rules that went into effect 9/1/08 have had the thickness stipulation.

Bodies on the list that may have been previously approved for use and on the list prior to the rule requirement / statement of .007 for the sides could be less but it is the racer's responsibility to meet the requirements.

How a region implements the rules is not within the control of the board. For Retro East we implement the rules as they are written and that means that bodies must meet the .007" side thickness.

The R4/2 is being run under IRRA rules so the bodies used should meet the spec.

Body makers can make what they want and raceways can sell what they want. We approve bodies based on the rules of meeting the type of car for the period intended. If a body purchased by someone does not meet the specification it must be brought into spec by them.

So simply put, a .007" body is legal as long as it measures .007" on the side when teched?

#86 Noose

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 11:11 AM

Correct. I would also add that it should meet the other requirement of not being flimsy and a detriment to marshaling.

And, for those that want to know, the simplest method is to use clear packing tape and put a layer along the complete side. Of course I would do it on the inside but you can do it on the outside if you wish. Measurements for thickness are taken in multiple spots from the front of the rear wheel arches to the rear of the front wheel arches. If you choose to use body armor or strapping tape that is up to you but of course they are a lot thicker.

A number of guys have seen me do this and I always have them observe the reading. It has not been a problem with them then making the body comply.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#87 Bob Campbell

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 12:44 PM

I didn't see anyone saying that it was a problem that you were pulling .007" bodies. Noose just pointed out that IRRA requires .010" bodies.

I sure didn't read anything singling you out...

Taken from the IRRA website:

Note: It is requested, in keeping with the spirit of retro racing, that bodies not be any less than .007"
thick on the sides. Any body found to be flimsy or a detriment to marshaling will need to be corrected by the racer

Tape or body armor may be used to achieve the desired side thickness.

How do you guys figure that .007" bodies are illegal? Or that .010" bodies are required? It plainly states in the rule that bodies not be any less than .007" to keep in the "spirit of retro racing". Where can I order a spirit guage to check all of this spirit crap?

The way the rule is written, .007" or more is legal as is. .0069" or less is not legal. Why can't we have black and white rule without this spirit crap.

I personally would run .015" bodies if everyone else had to. There is NO disadvantage if everyone runs the same thickness and the bodies will last longer!

Maybe R-Geo Rick will build a spirit guage for all of us tech guys to buy. :laugh2: :laugh2:
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#88 Noose

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 12:52 PM

Maybe R-Geo Rick will build a spirit guage for all of us tech guys to buy.

He did and I have it. ;)

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#89 Rick

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 12:52 PM

LMAO, Noose carries his "SPIRIT GAUGE" (R-Geo brand) with him at all events. I am sure some will be given a lesson in spirit this weekend and a lot of whinin', too.

Bob, although it sounds vague, the rule about .007" sides really does work pretty well. In mandating .010" bodies, you would then have .003" sides, and they would be legal, because they were made from a sheet of .010". Rules makers make the rules, rules breakers figure out ways to circumvent them and color in between the lines.

Remembering me posting 18 months or so ago? "Rules beget rules". :laugh2: :laugh2:
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#90 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 01:08 PM

Or in this case the rule makers will tell you how to break the rules they set forth. :laugh2: :laugh2:

Bottom line, the advantage is still in the .007" court. If I put tape on the sides to make the .007" or even just a little extra paint! I still have a lighter .007" top :D which in turn gives me a lower CG. ;)

I like the .015" for all idea. I'll never have to throw away another piece of Lexan. :shok:

#91 Mark Misegadis

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 01:30 PM

Any body pulled out of .007 material will not be .007" on the sides. It will be .007" on the top. A shorter profile body will show much less dimensional loss due to stretch than something like a taller profile stock car.

Where there are issues in consistency would be when the manufacturer has a large forming table and forms many bodyies at one time and therefore has issues with the draping of the plastic between the molds and the distance that they are placed between each other.

I have had .015" stock cars recently that were .003" on one side and .007" on the other. The "roof" was still .015" all day long. I would suggest that a little common sense goes a long way here once you possess a small amount of knowledge on the manufacturing process.

If we want to have a topic that us useful... Why don't we instead discuss how brittle the new IRRA Stock Car bodies are. During our inaugural event we had cars that were more strapping tape to tie an ENTIRE quarter panel or NOSE back on, etc. This was seen across the entire field so we can blame that on paint. I'd like to know if others are having the same experience???

Mark

#92 John Streisguth

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 01:34 PM

Rick, I think you pretty much nailed it. Even if you start with .010" or .015" material, there are ways to pull it thinner, especially on the sides. Much harder to keep the thickness where you started.

Since the sides are typically what turns out thin, unless you want to measure everywhere on the body, it's the simplest and seems to be the most effective way to keep the bodies at least relatively at a minimum. No rules are perfect; guess that's why Grp 7 rules became less and less during the '70'. Easier when there are no rules, but that has it's own problems.
"Whatever..."

#93 Noose

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 01:36 PM

One must also take into account manufacturing tolerances for the Lexan sheets. It does vary +/- a thousandth. Mark M. is right in that the way bodies are pulled will have an impact on the outcome. Doing one pull vs four at a time for example and the placement of the molds can make a huge difference.

As for the Stock Car bodies and the problems associated with them, I know Ron has been advised. He can comment.

If the rule did mandate .010" bodies and the measurement was to be taken in the middle of the rear and the front you will still see .007"-ish on the sides. I would call this the D3 rule because that is exactly what their rule states.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#94 NJ Racer

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 05:26 PM

Here is some Spirit for the sin in you. :laugh2:

Click Here

Remember it's way COOOL to be 007

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#95 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 06:12 PM

Look at the sides on that body! :laugh2:

#96 Ron Hershman

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 06:50 PM

The taller the mold... the thinner the sides.

The closer the molds on the plate... the thinner on the sides. Even with pulling bodies one "up" at a time... you will still find thinner sections on the bodies. If you want one up bodies... I will gladly make them for $19.95 each. :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Polycarbonate film has a tolerance of + or - .001" So if you order .010" and it comes in and actually measures .009" they won't take it back. It's within their spec.

The Retro Stock Car bodies have thin sides... the molds are over 3 inches tall and have to be to get all the detail with minimum webbing.

Retro stock car bodies crack and split easily because of all the "sharp" edges molded in around the head lights, bumpers, grills, and then we put big azz cutouts in them for the tires. Want your body to last longer? Use a thin coat of "shoe-goo" on the inside of the body after painting it. This is a old R/C trick to keep the bodies from cracking and splitting so easy.

The rules call for .007" thick sides. If your body is a tad thin... add the tape... I would recommend "scotch" tape for this versus any other tape.

If you want to be a cheap azz or too lazy to add tape to the sides of your .010" or .007" bodies.. .then put on a .015" and have at it. Don't cry when you get eaten alive in the turns as your car will want to tip out everywhere. Besides... think how much longer your body will last and how much you will save in the long run.

IT'S YOUR CHOICE!!!

#97 Ron Hershman

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 06:53 PM

If we want to have a topic that us useful... Why don't we instead discuss how brittle the new IRRA Stock Car bodies are. During our inaugural event we had cars that were more strapping tape to tie an ENTIRE quarter panel or NOSE back on, etc. This was seen across the entire field so we can blame that on paint. I'd like to know if others are having the same experience???

Some guys in some places have problems and other guys in other places have no problems. All of the bodies have been pulled from the same polycarbonate material with varying results in the field.

#98 Ron Hershman

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 06:57 PM

Correct. I would also add that it should meet the other requirement of not being flimsy and a detriment to marshaling.

Please explain how you measure if a body is too flimsy?? You got a special toolie thing for checking that at tech? ;) :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Is this to say if one has a .007" thick sided body and chooses not to tape the sides of it causing it to flex more than the same body with reinforcing tape added, that would not be allowed to run?

How can that be measured?

Besides, if my car is hard to marshal... that costs me... not the marshal of the other racers in the race.

#99 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:30 PM

The Tech Nazi is judge, jury, and executioner... ;)

And I like it... :)

If Retro continues to promote crappy, throw-away bodies 'just' for the sake of performance... I know I'm done.

I agree with Tony P., Mark, Rick, and others. Make 'em .015", with a minimum .010" on the sides.

If they don't handle well... tough s----. It is relative. Same for everyone.

If you want to go fast... man up, and go run Eurosport with .005" bodies on a flat track.

Make it right for 2010. If Red Fox, or anyone else, doesn't want to play the game... give them the boot.

SOS... Tail wagging the dog in regard to the manufacturers.

I hope tape sales are brisk in Columbus.

LM

#100 Mark Greene

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:03 PM

Please explain how you measure if a body is too flimsy?? You got a special toolie thing for checking that at tech? ;) :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Ron, we covered that. It's called a spirit gauge! I think R-Geo makes them. :wub:





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