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#1 Lucky2

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Posted 10 September 2023 - 10:08 PM

You all know that there are only a few methods available to test a motor's performance and the information gained may result in telling you that bad motors are good.
 
A few years after I retired, I needed a project to keep me busy. I decided to make a machine that could accurately measure the performance of the slot car motors used today.
 
The project has kept me busy for over a year and I am ready to make the information that I have collected available to anyone who would like to see it.
 
I am not selling anything, the purpose is help you learn the truth about the motors you are using.
 
Send your contact information to cardura.instr@gmail.com.

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Phil Blanke




#2 Mark Onofri

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Posted 11 September 2023 - 10:50 AM

What are the chances of describing the equipment/process? Definitely sounds like needed information.

#3 Bill from NH

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 07:36 AM

Phil, why not post your information here in the public forum for all to see and decide?


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Bill Fernald
 
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#4 Cheater

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Posted 12 September 2023 - 07:46 AM

Bill,

 

The material is in a file format that cannot be posted here.

 

With Phil's permission, I can convert them to a format that can be posted here; it's a total of about 20 images.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#5 Mark Onofri

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 01:17 PM

Post it, Cheater!!!


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#6 Cheater

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Posted 13 September 2023 - 09:13 PM

We're working on it, Mark. Patience!


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#7 Mark Onofri

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Posted 15 September 2023 - 06:48 PM

LOL, I've got nothing but time! He has over a year invested in it, I would imagine he's anxious to get it to the masses (us).
 
You're the best, Cheater; thanks for your time.
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#8 Mark Onofri

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 06:58 PM

I've seen the graphs from Lucky 2's testing. It's 100% professional in every sense of the word. The process is easily (for most) duplicated. I'm impressed.


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#9 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 September 2023 - 09:46 PM

Where? Direct from Phil?


Bill Fernald
 
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#10 Mark Onofri

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Posted 20 September 2023 - 12:00 AM

Yes.



#11 Cheater

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Posted 20 September 2023 - 08:19 AM

Bill,

 

Read the first post in this thread.

 

I've seen Phil's work and it's impressive.

Based on the sort of idiots and trolls who comment at places like Facebook and YouTube, I do kind of understand why Phil is taking such an approach.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#12 Bill from NH

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Posted 20 September 2023 - 11:49 AM

Phil is free to distribute his work and results any way he wants. When somebody alludes they got have something I might have missed, sometimes I get concerned, sometimes I don't. Motor performance isn't something near and dear to my heart at the moment. When/if it becomes, I have Phil's email address in post #1.


Bill Fernald
 
I intend to live forever!  So far, so good.  :laugh2:  :laugh2: 

#13 TallyBernie

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Posted 21 September 2023 - 12:11 AM

I consider myself a friend of Phil's even though we've never met. He has helped me, on the phone and via email, understand the dyno I purchased from him a couple of years ago. The device is amazing - well designed and well built. In addition, Phil wrote the dyno software, which produces enough output to make even the hungriest data geek happy.

The only downside is on me, as I have not had time to use the device as much as I originally planned. (No, I'm not selling it.) I know of three other racers in my area who also purchased the device from Phil. Phil told me he would produce several devices then stop production. Does another project call?

The fact that Phil is offering up information about his dyno only speaks to his intelligence and kind, generous nature.


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#14 Lucky2

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Posted 26 September 2023 - 07:51 AM

Alrighty then.

 

These are some of the documents available from my email address: cardura.instr@gmail.com.

Why.jpg

 

CR102 Road Runner Compared.jpg

 

CR102 Motors - Flywheel Rpm Range.jpg

 

Hawk 7  Motors - Flywheel Rpm Range.jpg

 

Eagle Motors - Flywheel Rpm Range.jpg

Downloadable PDFs:

 

Attached File  A1000 Why Make A Machine To Test Motors.pdf   24.91KB   55 downloads

 

Attached File  A1001 CR102 Road Runner Compared.pdf   131.87KB   45 downloads

 

Attached File  A1013 CR102 Motors - Flywheel Rpm Range.pdf   117.69KB   45 downloads

 

Attached File  A1010 Hawk 7 Motors - Flywheel Rpm Range.pdf   114.29KB   31 downloads

 

Attached File  A1007 Eagle Motors - Flywheel Rpm Range.pdf   115.71KB   33 downloads


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Phil Blanke

#15 kuni123456

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Posted 27 September 2023 - 09:17 PM

I have been testing CR102 motors with a Phil Blanke dyno for many months.

 

I race motors that have 10,200 or more RPM and have qualified in the SCRRA Can-Am A Mains since October 2022. I believe that motor testing is required when you race on a King track against racers like Duran Trujillo, Jeremy Marquette, Dale Yamashita, Alex Freund, Sam Rackham, and other very good racers.

 

I have tested many motors, including G7 motors that I use for G7 or 2MO racing. The difference between CR102 motors can be as high as ten percent. 


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#16 MSwiss

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Posted 28 September 2023 - 07:22 PM

Phil,

 

Are all those scores suppose to depict lap times in seconds?

 

IOW, does the best Hawk 7 score of 3.89 equate to a 3.89 second lap time?

 

And is your data just to compare motors of the same stock number, from of course the same manufacturer, or can I can compare the scores of the Hawk 7 with the scores of other motors in your test?

 

PS-how come the top CR102 in the Road Runner comparison test, with 10,251 RPM has a score of 4.489 and the top CR102 in the all CR102 test, with a similar 10,226 RPM, only has a 4.748 score?


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#17 Lucky2

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 02:42 PM

I should have included the first Graph with the other graphs posted.

 

Look carefully at the Score Values for each Motor. It doesn't know the

Motor Name.  Only looks at the Rpm values.

 

The Score Values are relative to the performance of each motor.

 

There may be another method to calculate the Score Value.

Send me your comments.

 

Also look carefully at the Graph for the Eagle motors. I had to change

the original math because the torque of the motors selected varies.

 

The lines on the graphs do show how each motor performs relative to

the other motors. But how will they perform on the track ?

 

Without the Score Value, I would not make the Dyno available to very

many people.

 

Your comments and suggestions are welcome via a phone call.

 

Phil Blanke  714 330-8239

 


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#18 Lucky2

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 02:51 PM

I chose the files but didn't click on "Attach Files".

 

Attached Files


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#19 Lucky2

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 05:25 PM

Look closely at this one because it may surprise you.

 

Attached File  CR102 CR102 Hawk 7 Current Draw.pdf   25.61KB   44 downloads


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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 07:37 PM

I'm not sure how you come up with your score value, for different types of motors, but it is wildly wrong.

 

You have a Hawk 7 with a best of 3.89 and CR102 with a 4.48.

 

There isn't an experienced racer on the planet that would agree you would go almost 6/10's of second faster with a Hawk 7 than a CR102.

 

We race these motors against each other on Wednesday night.

 

A Hawk 7BB held the lap record until it was knocked off by a CR102.

 

A CR102 isn't faster. Just very equal when geared properly.

 

I think that lies the problem.

 

You must not be aware that the CR102 is the highest torque motor in slot racing.*

 

People gear those something like 12-28 on .812 tires. That's 2.33-1 just alone on the gear ratio. They are geared something like 2.1875 in GTP cars on short tires.

 

Hawk 7's are geared more like 3-1, and are normally run in short tire cars.

 

But yet you dyno'ed them using the same 20-75 gears.

 

And unless I missed it , I don't see an answer from you  why the scores on the 2 different CR102 are so different, despite the similar RPM.

 

* I just read -"We know that the CR102 motor has much more torque than the Hawk 7". You apparently are somewhat aware but it doesn't answer the question why you are testing motors with poly-neo mags(Hawk 7), thinner solid neo mags(Eagle) and thickest solid mags (CR102 and the attempt at copying the CR102, the Road Runner) using the same gear ratio on your dyno.


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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#21 Lucky2

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 10:01 PM

Hi Mike,

 

You are right.

 

As you stated:

 

"A CR102 isn't faster. Just very equal when geared properly.

I think that lies the problem."

 

The Dyno is not intended to accurately predict the Lap Time based on the Gear

Ratio used on the track.

 

The purpose of the Dyno is to compare motors of the same Type#.  Testing all of

them with same Gear Ratio (3.75) is required to accurately compare them.

 

Testing the CR102 motors at another Gear Ratio is fine. Just use the same

Gear Ratio for all of the CR102 motors.

 

Notice how the Score Value and Flywheel Rpm (Rpm w) change on this Graph when the Gear Ratio changes.

 

 

 

 

Attached Files


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#22 MSwiss

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 11:19 PM

I am having a hard time understanding your posts.

 

You seem real hung up on your score values. 

 

If you are only using it to compare motors of the same type, why is there a PDF titled "CR102 Road Runner Compared." 

 

They are two different motors. The specs aren't close to being the same.

 

If you are really doing it just to compare all CR102s, etc., why is a score value important?

 

Why would you think this is something a racer needs?

 

It would vary wildly depending on the length of track, how fast the track is, etc.

 

If people believe the RPM readings your dyno is providing, the fastest motor is the fastest motor.

 

They will use the motor based on the importance of the race.

 

It's not important what you believe the lap time differences are between the 3rd and 4th motor.

 

They are still the 3rd and 4th fastest motor.

 

Also, say on a flat track, the slowest motor may be an advantage.

 

It might be the slowest because it has the least timing.

 

That lower timing will provide more punch and brakes which can provide better lap times on tracks with lots of tight, flat turns.

 

PS: And you still haven't explained why the different CR102 charts have very different score values, even though the RPM  numbers are very similar.


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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#23 Lucky2

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Posted 01 October 2023 - 06:08 PM

I Thought that most people know how a Flywheel Dyno is used or would learn from
the previous posts.  Looks like I was wrong.  Let's try this one.
 
CARDURA PRO DYNO MOTOR TESTING METHOD
 
The goal is to provide a testing method that will help us compare motors by using objective and accurate information.
 
The power supply voltage is 11 Volts. The voltage loss is about .07 volts. Motor RPM is flywheel RPM x gear ratio, Standard is 3.75 other ratios are available.
 
When power is applied to the motor, the recorder starts logging flywheel RPM from flywheel rotation number 1 to 260.  Takes about 8 to 10 secs.
 
The RPM value is saved to a SD memory card when each rotation of the flywheel is completed.  The SD card is read by a Windows computer.
 
READING THE GRAPHS
 
The vertical axis is the flywheel RPM.
The horizontal axis is revolutions of the flywheel from 1 to 250.
Revolution number 1 is at the left side of the graph.
 
When the vertical cursor line is at rotation 250, the numbers shown in the table are the maximum flywheel RPM values recorded for the motor.
 
The line starts to rise up as the flywheel RPM increases quickly. Then ot starts to flatten out as the motor's speed reaches the maximum value.
 
How fast the line moves up is related to the torque of each motor.
 
The line from the best motor is located at the top of the other lines.
 
The graphs show each motor's ability to accelerate the flywheel, using the same gear ratio and Ffywheel.
 
Why – Because accurate comparisons require each motor to be tested with the same load.
 
The score value is the calculated time for each motor to travel a distance using the flywheel RPM shown on the graph.
 
Your lap times won't match the score value because your track distance, tire size, and gear ratio are not the same as used by the software.
 
If you would like more help with this, please call me.
 
Phil Blanke – (714) 330-8239.

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#24 Samiam

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Posted 01 October 2023 - 07:38 PM

And awayyyyy we gooooooo...  :popcorm1:


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#25 Rob King

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Posted 14 October 2023 - 11:00 AM

How does this thing work? Is it a flywheel mounted on a gearbox of some sort, vs. directly mounting the flywheel to the motor like a Fantom Dyno? Just trying to find out if it is an actual or virtual gear ratio.

 

Also, your settings look confusing in light of your statement, "When power is applied to the motor, the recorder starts logging flywheel RPM from flywheel rotation number 1 to 260. Takes about 8 to 10 secs."

The settings show, for example, min RPM 4,000 to max RPM 12,000. This is motor RPM, not flywheel RPM? If the gear ratio is 3.75:1, the motor is turning the flywheel one rotation way before 4,000 RPM, so I assume you mean you are counting flywheel rotations starting at 4,000 RPM of the motor?

 

As for the score, is this simply the time it takes for the motor to spin the flywheel the allotted 250 rotations? So, you are really testing torque by time over a specified "distance"? Also meaning the max RPM numbers are outside of this test, and a bit irrelevant to your "score." This would be in contrast to the Fantom in my memory, which based the test length on when the motor achieved max RPM.







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