20 replies to this topic

[Bags]

Posted on SpeedZone's Facebook group.

 

"Report from last night's Group 10 race. I hear Tom Varinecz was smiling ear to ear running my car with KC 4500kv to a first place finish over Dave Parrotta running his Nat's 16D. Tom usually runs B Main to a podium finish most nights.

 

Look for some rules tweaking over the next few weeks before next Group 10 race."

[Bucky]

This seems like an apples to oranges comparison. I hope everyone had a good time, but if youre using this to claim the superiority of brushless cars its a silly example. A brushless setup doesnt fit into the Group 10 rules.

[Bill Seitz]

It was my understanding from other brushless posts that the 4500KV motors were closer to G12 in performance, at least a S16D or Phoenix. Not surprised at all a 4500KV motor beat a 16D. Not even close to being equal. If I go by the widely publicized rule that brushless motor rpm is KV times track voltage, this is running a 55,000 rpm motor (brushless) against a 35,000 to 40,000 rpm motor - no contest.

[stoo23]

From what I read, everyone 'Had a Ball' !! and isn't that the whole point of Why we race Slot Cars ??, ..... to have Fun !! 

[Bags]

I always hear the “how do they compare to brushed motors” ?

 

Plain fact is brushless is faster through the corners.

 

Maybe David will give a little in sight as to what the race was like ?

 

The rules will be “tweeked” the post says, I guess to separate the brushless from the brushed?

[Bill Seitz]

There are enough problems trying to create equivalent classes of various brand brushed motors together, so I'm expecting it'll be interesting to see how we try to integrate brushed and brushless. If it's done like the example above, well, certainly brushless will come out on top every time. I'm not trying to advocate for one or the other kind of motor, just that if they're going to be compared like that, the comparison is fair.

 

A 3500KV motor might be a better match for a 16D.

[Jay Guard]

I always hear the “how do they compare to brushed motors” ?

 

Plain fact is brushless is faster through the corners.

 

Maybe David will give a little in sight as to what the race was like ?

 

The rules will be “tweeked” the post says, I guess to separate the brushless from the brushed?

Bags:

It's no surprise at all that a car with a "tiny" brushless motor is faster in the turns than one with an antiquated lump of a 16d brush-type motor.  Definitely not an apples to apples comparison.  I'm not trying to disrespect the brushless cars as I think they have quite a future in some classes.

BTW...I just ran in an enduro (maybe the first ever?) with a brushless motor car and really enjoyed it so no real "issue" here with brushless motors.

[MSwiss]

Aaron, Bill, Jay,

Yes, from what I know about brushless, running a 4,500kv brushless up against a 16D is stacking the deck in favor of the brushless.

 

That said, you guys should be thrilled that Bags reported on an actual event, and with what actually happened.

 

In this thread, he made up a story that the person most able to debunk it, did just that.

 

http://slotblog.net/...ess-race-at-p1/

 

And once it was proven that he did fabricate what happened, he didn't have the common decency to apologize.

 

http://slotblog.net/...d-ever-get-hot/

 

"When Mr Beggs says that no one wanted to race with the brushed motors it is not the fact"

[gotboostedvr6]

Ok ok everyone play nice now.

I ran my super crazy good 16d car and almost tied the track lap record and broke lane time records on 2 or 3 lanes.

Tom ran a brushless car and finished 50 feet ahead of me. He broke 2 lane lap time records.

Before the race I hot lapped the brushless car and ran 4.50 every lap. Tom using the same car hot lapped 4.6/4.7

Tom is a consistent racer but he doesnt run on the edge like I do. The brushless car was a good bit slower than me on straights but just tore up corners. It turned like a wing car. I think it will be difficult to have brushless and brushed run together due to the corner speed variation. This variation will be less apparent using low downforce and or heavy cars.

[MSwiss]

Dave,

Thanks for chiming in.

 

Were you racing on the flat track or Engleman?

[gotboostedvr6]

Engleman

[Samiam]

This seems like an apples to oranges comparison. I hope everyone had a good time, but if youre using this to claim the superiority of brushless cars its a silly example. A brushless setup doesnt fit into the Group 10 rules.

 

Not his quote.

[MSwiss]

The brushless car was a good bit slower than me on straights but just tore up corners. It turned like a wing car.

If it was a 4,500KV motor and a good bit slower on the straights, most likely it was geared incorrectly. 

 

Did Mic have it geared for the flat track?

 

Any idea if it was running icebox or normal temps?

 

Of course it should handle better than a 16D.

 

But if it was geared differently,  it would probably be more in sync with a normal car.

 

The only revelation I see in this thread is a 4,500kv motor car is superior to a 16D.

 

It's clear if Dave also raced a brushless car, he would still win by his usual margin.

 

This thread reminds me of the UK ones where the brushless cheerleaders are marveling over giving cars with a $15 Hawk 7,(which cost the raceway or club,$8 or $9) a beating with their cars with a $14 Ebay motor that they had to replace the shaft, and add a $50 Ecomm.

 

At least it was acknowledged the rules need tweaking.

 

The cars,  as is, are clearly not evenly matched machines.

[MSwiss]

From what I read, everyone 'Had a Ball' !! and isn't that the whole point of Why we race Slot Cars ??, ..... to have Fun !! 

From your FB posts, it's clear you are smart enough to realize that 7 guys with inferior cars, will not continue to "have a ball", racing against one guy with a different spec car that is clearly superior. 

[stoo23]

Well thanks  .... I didn't say how Long they might enjoy it      but then, perhaps like what was happening with our Retro group that met regularly before our track was forced to close, it was as much (if not more a pleasant Social gathering amongst old racing friends), than a Win at all costs race.

 

At Kim's raceway here in Aus', they have been testing various combinations and are having a mixed race this coming weekend I believe (and yes, it is with and against Hawk 7's), they have found almost identical equivalency using the DoSlot 3000kv motors.

 

Their testing (as my racing buddy and I noted during testing) with the setup they intend to run with, the brushless motors barely even get warm !!!

The cars are doing virtually identical lap times but as has been experienced, the brushless cars are enormous through the turns.

 

This race is to give both those interested and those perhaps unsure about All things brushless some exposure to brushless stuff and has been racer driven with the eventual outcome, to create a Brushless Class.

 

I understand yours (and others critiques of brushless compared to lower priced Sealed motors etc) but that's not the point of This Excersize.

The existing Hawk 7 class had poor numbers, (perhaps partly due to the previous variance in performance) and his racers are keen to try something new and to try brushless.

Their Hawk 9 class is working great, as are many of the other classes raced by his very capable and keen bunch of racers 

 

Will be interesting to hear how things go.

[Bucky]

Not his quote.

Im unclear of your point.

[Samiam]

Im unclear of your point.

 

 

 

 

 

He reposted someone else's post.

 

But I agree. Spark and sparkless motors are apples and oranges. Both fruit. Both sweet and delicious. But you can't put peanut butter on an orange. 

[gotboostedvr6]

3500 kv would barely make a 5.2 lap
Its possible 4000 kv would be a 16d equal.

Several ratios were tested to find the best possible.

Also consider I build fast 16d motors.

[Tim Neja]

There's really NO POINT in comparing these two different styles of motors.  They are SO different--brushless will require new class's to be created to race them. And brushed motors will enjoy all the class's they have now.  Both have positives and negatives-- both are fast and fun!  Enjoy them BOTH!! 

[Tim Neja]

OKay--- an UPDATE on my experience with brushless motors!  Dennis Samson let me drive his brushless set up cars.  From a simple Mossetti 4500KV motor LMP  to his awsome Euro chassis 6500KV motor!  The cars are AMAZINGLY smooth to drive and handle exceptionally well!! Two major reasons I found is the motor and esc combination is up to 13 grams lighter than conventional motors!! Also the torque curve is very smooth so acceleration is very easy to drive!  I"m a CONVERT!!  These motors will outlast any brushed motor as there really is nothing to wear out!  I'm going to get an LMP version and play with it--but I'll experiment with something to power my retro can am's with also and see how it goes.  The future is bright!

[Tim Neja]

Allright-- I recieved a KC Racing RTR LMP car last week.  I ran it on a Paper Clip track at Foster's in Santa Maria Ca.  This track is pretty swoopy -- main straight with a big bank-- back to the drivers with a 90 degree turn under a full donut--then two 90 degree turns to get you back to the main.  Pretty smooth and fast.  
The LMP car rocked this little track!  VERY easy to drive as it's only 75 grams-- speed was very close to a good Phoenix motor in the same Aolis chassis.  High down force LMP body and the car was really smooth and easy to drive.  

I'll update once I've built the GT12 and Euro cars I have planned.