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Something I've never considered


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#1 Dave Crevie

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 09:36 AM

Using a Strippit type punch for making flexi chassis. I have been away from this type of operation for a while, and didn't know how far these machines have advanced. The newest CNC models can not only create blanks, but now they can do the forming operations as well as threading holes. And with even closer tolerance capabilities than ever before, you could turn out a competed center section or pan in about a minute. No other operations required. 

 

https://youtu.be/FNxLaEZwH-o?si=e4hqdQHBP0DuuPbZ 

 

I know that laser cutting and water jet cutting are now being used to create the blanks, but you still need a forming tool, which is more expense and extra production operations. With the Strippet developed parts, you only need to assemble them. Or sell the chassis as a kit?


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#2 NSwanberg

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 10:07 AM

I spent some time investigating having a nearby stamping company duplicate the Parma rental car/Whisper Jet to no avail. It would have been quite costly. The right programmer might be able to pull it off with this equipment.


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#3 Brian Czeiner

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 10:15 AM

I see this a a way production would reducer their costs. Would they pass it to the consumer might be another story. Possibilities are seemingly endless! Wonder if it will fit in the kitchen?


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#4 Dave Crevie

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 04:33 PM

When I was working with these machines, this is the model we were using. (picture from an auction listing)                                             

 

acncpunch1.JPG

 

 

The ram did not rotate, so to cut angles you had to use additional slot punches set at the angle you needed. The new machines can rotate the punch to match the angle you want. The old machines couldn't make bends, either. The machine accuracy is also much improved. X/Y position accuracy was .001, the new machines have X/Y position accuracy of .0002. And repeatability of .0003. 

 

As to pricing, small production contract shops are very competitive, especially with so much work going overseas. If another shop finds out what you are charging, chances are they will undercut your price. 

 

The Whisper-jet chassis is real simple. Perfect for this type of machine. Virtually no tooling costs involved, other than a special punch to form the guide tongue.  



#5 Bill from NH

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 07:12 PM

How about making wheels & hubs for tires & gears? What's the return on investment of a machine like this? Would everyone have to be racing retro classes with stamped chassis? Does Mabuchi use machines similar to this?


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#6 Phil Hackett

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 07:25 PM

How about making wheels & hubs for tires & gears? What's the return on investment of a machine like this? Would everyone have to be racing retro classes with stamped chassis? Does Mabuchi use machines similar to this?

 

At one time there was a company, here in the Los Angeles area, that stamped parts using a method they called "fine blanking". They were incredibly precise parts as the process used 2 dies and one punch. The gears were amazing.... as was the cost of the tooling. It didn't make economic sense unless 100k + parts were ordered (each size as you needed a tool per gear size).

 

As far as stamping wheels.... that's been done. Again, how many parts you want to commit to order and how much money you wanna spend? Oh, you can't stamp magnesium.... forge, yes, but you're getting away from economically competing with machining the part from raw stock....


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#7 Dave Crevie

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 11:02 AM

How about making wheels & hubs for tires & gears? What's the return on investment of a machine like this? Would everyone have to be racing retro classes with stamped chassis? Does Mabuchi use machines similar to this?

 

This type of machine can't make wheels or hubs. It is designed to work only with sheet stock. (see next topic, CNC turning)

 

Return on investment, like any phase of manufacturing, depends on you selling machine time to keep it working as much as possible. 

 

What slot racers do as far as classes has nothing to do with these machines. They could be used to make the motor brackets and pans for retro.

 

I don't know what Mabuchi does as far as processes, but they could make cans with the new turret punch machines that can form the blanks. The sides would still have to be spot welded. And the endbells injection molded. 

 

Incidently; I have blanked and formed both magnesium and titanium for the aerospace industry, both materials that are very hard to cold work. The solution? Preheat the stock. 


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#8 Bill Seitz

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 05:29 PM

The problem that seems to arise with slot car chassis with any of the methods is that end-product characteristics often require additional processing that may be left out due to cost objectives. For example, many chassis that I'm sure are punched/stamped and formed as discussed here require stock of relative mild hardness, and the end results without additional heat treatment are either thick and heavy or bend too easily.

 

Laser cutting tends to heat the stock to the extent it becomes quite work hardened and needs some annealing treatment afterward. I acquired some DRS wing car chassis bits that I believe are laser cut spring steel. The material is so hard that the chassis are incredibly stiff - to the point of being too stiff and not handling well. So far, I've not encountered an issue of brittleness, but that could be an issue if the chassis at that time had been thinner and lighter. For some reason, the holes and slots are also undersized, and can only be enlarged using abrasive grinding because of material hardness.

 

I haven't seen waterjet used for anything like the stock material used in slot car chassis, although I understand with abrasive cutting fluids something of the sort ought to be possible. I'm also not familiar with the tolerances that can be achieved, and there would still need to be a forming operation for something like a flexi-style chassis.

 

Punching/stamping and laser cutting can also result in excessive bowing and warping which seems to plague everything I've seen but EDM cut chassis.



#9 Dave Crevie

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 09:34 AM

The problem that seems to arise with slot car chassis with any of the methods is that end-product characteristics often require additional processing that may be left out due to cost objectives. For example, many chassis that I'm sure are punched/stamped and formed as discussed here require stock of relative mild hardness, and the end results without additional heat treatment are either thick and heavy or bend too easily. 

With the new CNC Strippit and Strippit type machines, the blank comes out finished, no other operations required. Fully formed. And even the older machines can handle some pretty hard stock. I personnally have run .032 inch spring steel up to 48 Rc. Stainless steel and 1040 steel are not a problem. 

 

Laser cutting tends to heat the stock to the extent it becomes quite work hardened and needs some annealing treatment afterward. I acquired some DRS wing car chassis bits that I believe are laser cut spring steel. The material is so hard that the chassis are incredibly stiff - to the point of being too stiff and not handling well. So far, I've not encountered an issue of brittleness, but that could be an issue if the chassis at that time had been thinner and lighter. For some reason, the holes and slots are also undersized, and can only be enlarged using abrasive grinding because of material hardness.

Laser cutting does create an embrittlement zone around the cuts, but for the most part, that shouldn't effect the rest of the material. Generally speaking, you can't form sharp angles with hard spring steel, so naturally, wing car chassis will still have to be assembled from a pile of small pieces. There is no good reason for a punched hole to be out of spec. 

 

I haven't seen waterjet used for anything like the stock material used in slot car chassis, although I understand with abrasive cutting fluids something of the sort ought to be possible. I'm also not familiar with the tolerances that can be achieved, and there would still need to be a forming operation for something like a flexi-style chassis.

Waterjet is now being used by some manufacturers to cut the blanks, but you still need a forming tool to do any bending. As the video in post #1 shows, the part comes out fully formed, ready for assembly. The main problem I see is that waterjet cutting leaves a fairly wide and variable kerf. Not a problem until you get to the bushing/bearing holes, which may come out over or under size. 

 

Punching/stamping and laser cutting can also result in excessive bowing and warping which seems to plague everything I've seen but EDM cut chassis.

The new machines use steel strippers backed up with vanadium steel springs, a vast improvement over the neoprene shedders used by the older machines. But still, even with the older machines, I have punched fairly large electronics chassis with less than .005 distortion. Certainly, a slot car chassis could be done with less than .001 total warpage. 


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#10 Mark Onofri

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 10:17 PM

I've had the spring steel stock for almost a year now. I've had several conversations with a local hydro forming shop. It comes down to putting the pencil to the paper Wich, I have not done. Believe it or not, the thought of getting to it had crossed my mind tonight. Probably a good idea before the rust completely changes from light surface imperfections to swiss cheese.
I'll try to find out what the min/Max dementia is.

#11 Dave Crevie

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 09:11 AM

I wouldn't use hydroforming for a slot car chassis. You have to find a way to trim the part from the rest of the sheet. And you will end up with a lot of waste stock. 

 

https://youtu.be/1QP...njFhPhFZ9nH2K2O

 

Find a small shop with small press brakes if you are only doing a few pieces. They can do all the bends you need, once the punched blank is done. The guide tongue can be built up like it is on a wing or eurosport chassis. Do all forming while the stock is in it's soft state, and have the parts tempered as a last operation.



#12 Mark Onofri

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 10:56 AM

The AI program changed it from hydro cutting to hydro forming. Two totally different processes. As far as waist, the program they use preforms a
"nesting" function. I'll try to find out about stacking and min/Max dementia .

#13 Dave Crevie

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 12:32 PM

If you are water-jetting the blank, there won't be any trimming of excess stock. The programmer will design the cuts so that there is little space from one blank to the next and minimal lost material. Something like this;

 

ademocntr1.jpg



#14 Mark Onofri

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 09:40 PM

One thing that I've been wondering about is, would it be cheaper to have only one shape per given stock ? I would think it would be but, IDK 😶

#15 Dave Crevie

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 09:19 AM

Depends on the size of your stock. If you only want one complete chassis, and all parts can be laid out on that sheet, it could be cheaper to do that. IE; you have all the parts you need from one series of steps in the program. The operator can then repeat that series for the number of complete "kits" you want, providing they all fit on that sheet. You have to work with whoever is doing the work. Also, if you only want center sections, the programmer can repeat only the steps that create that part. 

 

Conversely, if you have conventional stamping tooling made, you are stuck with all the parts made by each stamping cycle. Another advantage to using a Strippit type machine. 



#16 Mark Onofri

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 03:23 PM

Not sure if I have access to one & I don't really want to buy one.(strippit) So, you go to war with the army you have. I had a friend who had some G-7 chassis cut back in the late 80's early 90's.
There was a issue with the hardness/temper after the Lazer process . Irc, they had to be heat-treated.

#17 Dave Crevie

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Posted 10 October 2024 - 08:53 AM

Look on the internet. There are hundreds (actually) of companies in North America using Strippit type machines. Go for a small shop that needs the work. 

 

You aren't going to be able to bend hard spring steel. So you will have to make the chassis from separate pieces, just as they are now. So if the parts are small enough, the heat from the laser is going to anneal some of them. As will happen to the "rail" areas if they are thin enough. The Strippit process doesn't create any heat. Neither does water-jet. Travelling wire EDM concentrates the heat to an extremely small area, so generally speaking, you don't loose any temper.

 

You can do what you want, but you might be best to listen to someone who has been working with this stuff for nearly 50 years.   


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#18 Mark Onofri

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Posted 10 October 2024 - 10:23 AM

???? I thought l was concurring with you?????
Anyhoo, the weather has turned to 🥶
So it's back to the drafting board. Should be able to get a drawing to the shop tomorrow. Brass pans are going to be first.
Most of what I'm doing is in a thread under "vintage 1/24 pro racing cars and replicas" " Spring Steel".
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#19 Dave Crevie

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Posted 10 October 2024 - 11:57 AM

I thought that was more about materials than processes. The real sin here is that I am no longer physically working. At the last shop I worked for, the owner was amenable to me using the machinery for free if it wasn't being used for a job. At that time I was more interested in making wheel hubs, but the Mazak turning center was working 24/7. I needed them to shut a job down on a Friday, and be able to use it over the weekend before they set a new job on Monday. With the bar feeder, it would have been easy to make 5000 wheels over the weekend. And they would have been perfect. No run-out, no sloppy axle holes. No stripped set screw holes.

 

Back when I was working with Strippits, I wasn't slot racing. But if I was, I'm sure I would have tried making flexi chassis in one. I'm surprised no one else thought of it. The cost of a forming tool probably put them off. Cheaper to buy from China, where they were paying about 50 cents (US) an hour for labor. 


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