29 replies to this topic

[Gil Aubin]

If this has already been discussed somewhere, I apologize. I am new to the party and my search didn't show anything.

 

Is there an issue if local regions of the IRRA "tweak" the rules for their own races? For example, in the classes that have move-ups, is it a problem if they use total laps instead?Taking it a step further, can the region limit motors in some classes to one of the two currently approved? Can they mandate gear ratios? Can they add another motor not on the national list if they choose?

 

I am not suggesting any of these, just wondering what the consequences would be and what the options are.  Can a region say that they are "based on" IRRA? When I raced USRA decades ago each region would tweak the rules to fit their preferences. Not saying that was good or bad, just that it did happen.

 

I will step back now and watch the fun begin LOL.

[Noose]

Seeing that the rules have been fine for 18 years with the updates done, why change them? 

 

BTW the rules allow for a no move up format, too. Most of the problems are that people don't read the rules.

[John Luongo]

Interesting premise, Gil. A lot can be said for some local option interpretation. However, i think that the regulations exist so that racers show up with equipment that is similar in appearance and critical dimensions, there has to be a degree of parity and repeatability from raceway to raceway. Otherwise you may as well build a different car for each race. One time i asked the race director if i could run a different motor - marketed as compareable, but not approved equal. My laps and finishing position wouldn't count. I wanted to compare the relative motor performance under race conditions. with his permission I ran it. (I observed no measureable advantage in using the brand x motor). Some rule adjustments at the local option level may not offer any substantive advantage and in fact, can be disavantageous.

 

Thank you, Gil. Good question and discussion topic.

[Cheater]

Bottom line, if a race is going to be run using modified IRRA rules, the rule set being used must not be referred to as IRRA rules.

[bbr]

Gil,

 

if your local group decides to run a modified IRRA rule set... have at it...  just don't expect IRRA racers to endorse it or show up.    

[Hot Slots]

Gil,

 

Ya'll running them 5 thousandth bodies in Stock Car?

[Samiam]

Just race what you want and call it whatever you want. It is a free country after all.

[Gil Aubin]

People, relax, I am not saying that I want to change any rules, I just want to know if they can be tweaked/adjusted.  I overheard some racers this weekend brainstorming some ideas, some of them made sense, I was curious if any regional group can try new stuff just to see if it sticks.  I don't have a group, I race a few times a year in the NERR, I have no skin in the game. If Retro racing ceased to exist tomorrow the only impact on me is finding a new home for the hundreds of dollars of equipment I invested so that I can run mid pack in the B Main LOL. I just was thinking that if a regional group tried a tweak and it became popular, it could then be presented to the board.

 

For example, if an organization said that for this month only, the Coupe class must run 10 tooth pinions, is that allowed? 

[Danny Zona]

I believe the Penn-Ohio Retro series uses modified rules.

[Cheater]

For example, if an organization said that for this month only, the Coupe class must run 10 tooth pinions, is that allowed? 

Gil,

The IRRA rules are copyrighted and trademarked and the organization insists that the IRRA rules are not to be modified in any way.

This question has been asked before. The main point is that modified rule sets are not to be labeled or referred to as IRRA rules. Say the main rules to be used are aligned with the 'nationally-recognized' Retro rules with exceptions. Everyone should know what that means.

What was done with the USRA rules over decades essentially rendered the term 'USRA rules' meaningless and that's what the IRRA is trying to prevent.

[Racer36]

The appeal of Retro and the IRRA ruleset is that I can load up my half-assed racing program and travel anywhere to compete. The only variance I can recall is one event where a different motor was utilized in Coupe. The net of that was that I’m stuck with two mediocre motors I will never use again.

 

Any local option variances will just complicate life and cause more useless parts to be rattling around in my box.

 

My opinion… the rule set works… leave it alone and follow it.

[Jay Guard]

Personally speaking, I don't have a problem with someone having a local race saying it is being run with IRRA rules but (as an example) specifying a body to be used that is already approved by the IRRA.  It may not be a body that you would normally want to use at a big race, but if it is within the existing IRRA rule set I don't see a problem with that.

[Gil Aubin]

Personally speaking, I don't have a problem with someone having a local race saying it is being run with IRRA rules but (as an example) specifying a body to be used that is already approved by the IRRA.  It may not be a body that you would normally want to use at a big race, but if it is within the existing IRRA rule set I don't see a problem with that.

 

This is what I have been trying to say in my own convoluted way. Thanks for making it more clear.

[mreibman]

I like standardization. An organizing body, raceways following the same rules.

So if I want to travel to somewhere and race, I know what to expect.

 

I don't travel to races anyway (nor am I running Retro).

 

If we, as a sport, adopted one set of rules for a class, and it was universally adopted, I bet our participation in racing would go up.

[Cheater]

If we, as a sport, adopted one set of rules for a class, and it was universally adopted, I bet our participation in racing would go up.

Mike, that's essentially the effect that has been observed with Retro since the IRRA rules were created, although there are people in the hobby who seemingly don't wish to understand or acnowledge that.

[Noose]

This is what I have been trying to say in my own convoluted way. Thanks for making it more clear.

That’s been done many times. For Retro East, it was our annual Enduro. Only one body allowed and it was of course an approved one

[Modelville Guy]

But all change is not good nor is all change bad.

Times change parts change. Motors change.

 

If every race stays the same at some point it will fail.

 

The IRRA rules have not stayed the same for 18 years.

 

What is wrong with an event allowing something different to prove that something not in the rules is better or worst? Does the board decide a body is legal or a motor is legal by looking at it or do they test it? Well the way to test something is in a race not on a track by yourself for ten minutes.

 

Maybe let a raceway run IRRA rules but for class A we will be running a set gear ratio on a set motor or a different body. They post it, it is one class out of more than one and look at the results. Just remember faster does not mean better.

 

Maybe the IRRA should allow raceways to hold a "Prototype" race which follows most of the IRRA rule but not all so racers can see and prove what is better instead of a group of people behind closed doors.

[Brian Czeiner]

If we, as a sport, adopted one set of rules for a class, and it was universally adopted, I bet our participation in racing would go up.

 

I too enjoy a standardization as it is the cornerstone of success. The issue with a universal rule set for our very small hobby is it limits manufacturer variety to a small group of "the good old boys club" who can't put their personal feelings aside for the benefit of the hobby. New ideas come from everywhere, not just a few people. Sometimes the best ideas come from people who haven't been tainted by tradition. But we don't need to start from zero either.

 

I truly admire the IRRA rules set and the regional sub groups that establishes local interests while still being true to the IRRA ideology. The fact that the IRRA umbrella has been going for so many years proves beyond a shadow that something is being done right. Regional Retro rules have stayed in the lines and usually have just minor inexpensive alterations preventing one off builds of a complete car. Perhaps if we had the large quantity of stores and participation again in the US, national/regional rule sets would be less of an issue? 

I believe what Mr. Noose and the other responses are saying is you can tweak the rules but you can not represent the race as an IRRA event. This would be the logical for any sanctioning body. I do like the idea of test tweaking locally and then present the idea to the board. It seems it would be the best of all worlds and a step to positive improvement  for the hobby.
 
If I owned a store again, I would create a flexi Retro class to be run the same day as a type of beginners introduction to Retro. Let's be real. A completed car requires skills that even veteran racers don't necessarily have. I would question my own abilities at building a retro chassis. Skilled soldering, fabrication and the time invested to build are frustrating and intimidating to a new racer. Not to mention the cost of tools needed.

 

The JK wide indy car chassis would eliminate much of that. Visually it has the same representation as a typical Retro car with its large front tires. The approved bodies already match the dimensions as do all of the other components. The class would become a natural stepping stone and into the umbrella of Retro racing and perhaps expanding participation. Maybe allow Coupes and Can-Am bodies to run together? That would be for the board to decide.

[Jay Guard]

Just so everyone knows any idea may be presented to the IRRA Board of Directors at any time. Of course, it is best if the presenter has information or subjective data that can be presented along with the proposal for support. I can guarantee that the BoD will look at the idea and vote on it if it's deemed to have merit.

[Noose]

If I owned a store again, I would create a flexi retro class to be run the same day as a type of beginners introduction to retro

 

Been there, done that. We had  rule set and was run locally until the same fast guys were at the top. We then told folks here is a set of rules do what you want. Neither really brought any new racers in.

 

 FlexiGT-2011-IRRARules.pdf   85.48KB   5 downloads

 

We also had these:

 

 JKSpec-2011Rules.pdf   144.8KB   4 downloads

[Cheater]

Noose, you beat me to it.

Brian, what you propose has been tried and it simply did not have the effect you suggested it might have. Was tried when IRRA was first begun both nationally and with certain regional series running IRRA rules. We thought the same as you, but the results simply didn't occur.

[Modelville Guy]

Sorry could not resist...

 

Jay said:

"Just so everyone knows any idea may be presented to the IRRA Board of Directors at any time. Of course, it is best if the presenter has information or subjective data that can be presented along with the proposal for support. I can guarantee that the BoD will look at the idea and vote on it if it's deemed to have merit."

 

How does someone get subjective data if you can't race it using the rest of the IRRA rules?

 

Two, the BoD will only vote on something that has "merit." Who decides something has "merit"?

[JerseyJohn]

Retro racing was always the builders class. To me, it was always about the chassis and then everything else came around it.

 

The beauty of the IRRA rules is that they allow so much freedom. Think about it, you can use so many different brands of guide flags, wheels, gears, bodies, etc,' the choice is pretty limitless. And the beautiful part about it is that it opens it up to a lot of different businesses and vendors providing products for us, so no one is excluded.

 

In my opinion when you start running spec, let's say, tires and bodies you're limiting which vendors products are used, cutting out others. Most spec classes of racing that I'm aware of generally are flexi and scale racing. They often run a fixed tire and gear ratios although there are the ability to use different brands. That form of racing makes it more affordable for people and especially to get in new racers without having to go broke. How many different brands of controllers do we have?

 

The IRRA is a great rule set that has been working for over a decade. And one thing I will always notice is that no matter what spec class you run or any class you run, the same guys are always going to be in A. LOL.

[Jay Guard]

Richard:

You can race anything you like anytime you want; this is the USA after all. What you can't necessarily do is CALL it an IRRA class or say you're using IRRA rules. So you could make up any class you like, say something with a non-approved body, and give it a try with your racers. If it works out well then you have subjective evidence (ex. attendance was increased) that you can present with your proposal.
 
The IRRA BoD will decide if the idea has "merit" in that if, as an example, you wanted to propose a new IRRA class with a laser-cut chassis and brushless motors, we would probably decide out of hand that there's no real "merit" to make a new IRRA Retro class, no need to even vote. However we would respond to your request and give you some feedback as to why your idea was rejected. I can assure you that any reasonable request will be considered and most likely get voted on.

[bbr]

All I know is that IRRA won the "Retro war" LOL.

 

Retro is kinda dead on the west coast.