8 replies to this topic

[Phil Hackett]

This auction was the next block over. The company suddenly shut down with parts in process and, in some cases, tools still in the cut. It was a large company and why they shut down is (to me) unknown.

 

Below is a Hardinge GT-27. This is the same machine Sonic uses for making wheels, hubs, and most turned parts. It is about the same vintage as our machines and the only thing it is equipped with, that only one of our machine has, is ability for powered and programmable tools.

 

Anyway, I didn't bid on this machine (there were five of these machines in total) because I don't have the room for it, nor do I have the time for it. I won't say how much it sold for (BTW... it powers-up and throws no errors) but it was a crime. What was a $90,000+ machine new just 20 years later was sold for less than half the price of a used 20" Powermatic bandsaw! It'll probably cost twice the selling price to move it...

 

Excuse me while I get depressed...

 

[NSwanberg]

It would be nice to know the rest of the story.

[Dave Crevie]

I hate seeing machinery go to auction, and sold cheaply. If it is still in good running condition, it still can produce parts. Even if it has some miles on it, chances are that it can be rebuilt with the ways scraped and new lead screws and nuts, and for a lot less than buying a new machine. And that is the flip side of the story. Someone trying to get started in the business, can get started on a budget he can handle. He needs to have some smarts, be knowledgable and experienced in all phases of the business. He can't have a "get rich quick" attitude. Building a business takes a long time. He has to love it, and put it ahead of everything else in his life. It is so easy to become disheartened, when a market goes through a downturn, and it appears that your business is sliding down that hill. You loose the inertia you had when the business was running strong. You give up, and the business fails. And the assets go to auction. 

 

"If I only knew what I know now, when I was younger"  

[Phil Hackett]

Dave, the machine pictured uses linear guide ways so "rescraping" is merely replacing the guides.

 

The machine is mechanically very simple: it's the electronics that are the problems in machinery of this age. Fortunately, FANUC is very good about servicing their installed "base" and even if they have discontinued part replacement, there are rebuilders of FANUC electronics. None of which are cheap but it's all available. There are some controls where if something fails the machine is bricked as there is no support or servicing for them. A business neighbor has a CNC lathe that's in very good condition *but* the, non-FANUC, control is bad... It's a $10,000 bill for a new/rebuilt circuit board... so the machine just sits there. They cannot remove the machine because the shop is so packed with bigger machines that they'd spend days getting the lathe out... so it sits.

 

BTW... the Powermatic 20" bandsaw was sold for $2,000... the CNC lathe pictured was sold for... six hundred freakin' dollars... arrrrggghhh! One of the reasons this machine was low in bid price is that it had no bar feeder. These machines are very commonly used for production bar work and bar feeding is that important... still, it's good for chucking work or even a tire grinder (much overkill) for that price. Oh, if you needed to buy the included tooling for this machine you would have to spend $10,000+ retail so whoever won this machine got an extra bonus. The other four machines, with bar feeders, sold for no more than $3,000 each... still too low.

[Dave Crevie]

All interesting, but I'll stick to my belief that it would be cheaper to rebuild than buy new. Some years ago I retrofitted a CNC lathe that had old General Numerics controls with Accurite controls. IIRC it was around $8,000 for the system. Probably over $10,000 now. Of course, we saved a lot of money by me doing the work. I had already fitted several Bridgeports with Accurite retrofit systems, so it was a piece of cake. You may only get a couple of years out of the machine, but that gives you time to build up capital in the bank. Plus, if everything goes to hell, you aren't losing as much. 

 

In this day and age, a bar feeder is an absolute necessity on a CNC turning center. Unless you want to pay someone to stand and watch the machine run for 90% of it's cycle time. At CWM, it was normal for three guys to run 10 or 12 machines, all with tool changers and robotic material handling. The new controls are so good at detecting problems, a tool collision is extremely rare.  

[Phil Hackett]

My CNC mill has crash protection (as do the lathes) where the control monitors the amp draw and if the amps spike, the control kills the process, and goes into emergency mode, within 1/240 second. It's still bad to crash but at least the machine isn't trying to kill itself over an extended period of time. Don't ask how I know this... ya know... the machine will do exactly what you tell it to do...

 

Yes, it's cheaper to rebuild. The decision point is how many features are you willing to forego in not "upgrading" to a new machine. Most of the machines I see just need a good cleaning and through maintenance (filters, lubrication, belts and the like) to become "new."

 

I wish that I had a magazine bar feeding capability. It would be nice to place, say, 20 bars in the feeder and go home for the night and have the job run while sleeping but those feeders were always out of the budget. Last time I looked the feeders that did that were $30,000-$40,000. It's been a few years so the price has surely changed by now.

[Rob Voska]

Here in the midwest rust belt... I've seen lots of great equipment sell for no bid or scrap. I'm talking $5. Cost of moving was excessive. For a while they were being bought and sent to Asia countries. I had the opportunity to buy a Sodic wire EDM. They opened the doors of the EDM room and you got everything inside the walls. Machine, tables, computer, filters, rolls of wire, clock and chair, everything. Sold for $500. At the time it was late 2000s and the machine was early 2000s.  We paid $80K for our Mits in 1993.

[Phil Hackett]

The same auction the Hardinge was at had Brown & Sharpe, Davenport, Acme, and Euroturn screw machines. I'm sure those sold for a little more than scrap iron value. I didn't attend since I won the one lot I was interested in.

 

However, there was a Barrett fluid clairifier that day that four years ago I'd bid on. I'd bet it sold for more than most of the screw machines.

[Dave Crevie]

The trick is to know your market. Used machines might not be state of the art, but they will help you get your foot in the door with some customers. Once cash inflow is established, replacing the used stuff with new can be considered. 

 

The turning center I wanted to use to make wheels and gear hubs not only had a bar feeder, but a robot to set individual pieces (Mazak). It only ran 3D models, and knew where the tool was, as well as the tool holder and any other appendages that could contact the chuck or stock. A collision could only happen if the wrong toolholder was used, and didn't match the permanent info that had been programmed into the machine. The company often let the machine run 24/7, with only a high school kid to load more bars into the feeder. The kid also set the tools in the magazines in the CNC machining centers. Never mixed them up. Sharp kid. Worked there three years before moving to Seattle to work for Boeing. 

 

Whoops!