22 replies to this topic

[Dave Crevie]

There are three types of people in this world;

 

                           Those who learn by reading

 

                           Those who learn by observation

 

                           And those who can only learn by pissing on an electrified fence

[Racer36]

I think I’ve employed all three methods over the years.

[Bill from NH]

A dog learns real fast not to take a leak on an electric fence. 

[Pappy]

There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at math and those that aren't.

[Dave Crevie]

That is more than just a joke, Butch. I was never a wizkid in math, and yet, during my career, I met B/MEs that couldn't do simple trigonometry. 

[Pappy]

Hell, I can't even spell triggernommetry. 

 

I knew a flying instructor that couldn't fly. I wouldn't get in an airplane with him if I didn't have access to the controls.

[Bill from NH]

That is more than just a joke, Butch. I was never a wizkid in math, and yet, during my career, I met B/MEs that couldn't do simple trigonometry. 

 

That's the same as someone with a master's degree not having enough common sense to come inside out of the rain. I once worked for such an individual.

[Dave Crevie]

 

 

I knew a flying instructor that couldn't fly. I wouldn't get in an airplane with him if I didn't have access to the controls.

 

There were three guys at Elmhurst airport that said they would never fly with my mother. She was a daredevil. But she never had an accident, or even close call, for that matter. And yet, all three of those guys had incidents. Two noseovers due to too much brakes on landing, and one ground loop into a line of planes parked near the runway. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that the most dangerous pilots are those who think they are so great and never screw up. The rest know what the limitations are and stay well inside.

 

As to my mother, her reaction times were phenomenal. As a kid, I once watched her grab an angry bird out of the air. She did some scary things, but always left herself an "out". She knew what the plane was capable of, and stayed well within those boundary's.    

 

And Bill, a master's degree doesn't have a section for common sense. I don't know of any way to grade that. IMHO You only learn it by working in the real world. Some get it, some don't. 

[Phil Hackett]

That is more than just a joke, Butch. I was never a wizkid in math, and yet, during my career, I met B/MEs that couldn't do simple trigonometry. 

Back in the 1980s I was at a machinery auction and overheard a conversation between business owners, "I had an interview with a prospective employee. He had just graduated from Purdue University and he didn't know which direction to tighten or loosen screws." The conversation continued about the low quality of college grads.

 

For those who don't know: Purdue University calls themselves "Boilermakers" and it's an engineering college.

[Dave Crevie]

In defense of Purdue, there is a neighbor kid that graduated from there with honors, and now works for General Dynamics at their Electric Boat division. Sharp kid. I think it relys more on a willingness to learn than the quality of the curriculum. Recently I worked with an M/ME that didn't know what the temperature of absolute zero was. He was designing rocket engines that rely on super cooled hydrogen as a propellent.

[Jay Guard]

 

 And Bill, a master's degree doesn't have a section for common sense. I don't know of any way to grade that. IMHO You only learn it by working in the real world. Some get it, some don't. 

 

When I was working on my Mech. Engineering degree there were basically three parts, Math, Physics, and Design/build classes.  In the first two parts I was never one of the top guys.  However when it came to the actual design and build-it classes I beat the top "Math/Physics" guys every time.

 

Why, well ever since I was a little kid my Engineer Dad would include me hands-on in everything he did, heck I even got an Erector Set for Christmas when I was about 8 or 9.  I was always helping him build RC planes, woodworking projects, fixing a washing machine, and soldering things (not to mention my Navy bomb-fuse housing job).  It wasn't because I was so smart (yeah I know, that's obvious) .   It was the hands-on experience that made all the difference.

 

Unfortunately I don't think a lot of kids get that kind of experience from their Dads anymore. 

[Phil Hackett]

In defense of Purdue, there is a neighbor kid that graduated from there with honors, and now works for General Dynamics at their Electric Boat division. Sharp kid. I think it relys more on a willingness to learn than the quality of the curriculum. Recently I worked with an M/ME that didn't know what the temperature of absolute zero was. He was designing rocket engines that rely on super cooled hydrogen as a propellent.

I'm not knocking Purdue in any way. These people exist all over.... a story was related to me about an "engineer", at a rocket engine maker, who had problems using a McMaster-Carr catalog. The guy was supposed to be a  graduate with a bachelor degree in mechanical engineering.... Then there was the SOB (Son of Boss) who replaced me at a job. He had a masters degree in physics  (Cal Berkeley) but needed an instruction sheet to use a screwdriver ( I'm being hyperbolic but it isn't too far from the truth).

[Dave Crevie]

Jay; exactly my point. Manufacturing has eliminated the apprenticeship programs, and the kids are just thrown into the pool and expected to swim. I had no graduate education. I worked under some of the top tool makers, who went out of their way to teach me the ropes. And now the top manufacturers in aerospace come to me for advice.
Phil, I have heard that from so many projects managers. They can't give a project to any one guy. There needs to be a team, one guy to hold the box of crayons, one guy to draw pictures, one guy to enter the drawings into the computer, and one guy to turn the computer on and off. I learned that if I was going to be assigned to a "team",that meant that I would be doing the work and five other guys would be standing around watching me do it.

[Pappy]

 I learned that if I was going to be assigned to a "team",that meant that I would be doing the work and five other guys would be standing around watching me do it.

Dave, work fascinates me, I can sit and watch someone do it for hours. 

[Bill from NH]

I enjoy watching others work too. It's a good way to learn new things. Sometimes, you find somebody doing the same things as you do but have a better or easier method. Pappy, I'm limited to sitting for a couple hours.

[Bill Seitz]

My grandfather's education ended at 8th grade. He never had any advanced math and declared he didn't know any algebra, geometry, or trig. However, ask him how much concrete was needed for a certain size slab, and he had no problem doing the math. He'd learned all the formulas and knew how to use them.

 

It seems like a great many engineering students have moved on to calculus and never saw the importance of geometry and trig in real life. Now they can do all manner of fancy design calculations, but don't actually know how to build and measure, things that geometry and trig are good for. I hated calculus, barely passed as a requirement of my electronics degree, but can figure out all sorts of real structures with my geometry and trig skills.

 

As I progressed through a lengthy engineering career, I was amazed at how rare common sense seemed to be, how little people used reasoning and logic, and how few people could look at some piece they'd never seen before, figure out what was wrong, take it apart, fix it, and put it all back together and have it function again. My wife complains I never read the assembly instructions and just set about examining the pieces and figuring it out for myself. Winds up either we discover the instructions are wrong or leave out some vital step or piece, and the way I did it came out better than the instructions.

[Dave Crevie]

Watching if you are going to learn something is fine. Watching just to be a pest is not constructive. The problem I had, more often then not, was that the watchers spent more time making snide comments about what I was doing, than learning the process. Then later, when faced with the same problem, one or two would come to me for help. I had to tell them that I had already shown them how, I didn't have time to show them again. Conversely, if the guy had shown real effort to learn when I went over the problem, I had all the time in the world to help him out. ( even though my father taught metal technology at Washburn University during WWII, I have never been the teacher he was )

[Pappy]

( even though my father taught metal technology at Washburn University during WWII, I have never been the teacher he was )

 

You were never the pilot your mom was either. 

[Dave Crevie]

 

 

You were never the pilot your mom was either. 

 

 

Never hoped to be. But getting my GA was always on my mind. 

[Pappy]

Hope you know I'm just joking with you, Dave. 

[Dave Crevie]

Right. Friendly pokes. Keeps things light. 

 

You don't know how true your statement about my mother is. From the stories I have heard, she was an amazing pilot. Certainly why, at a time when women were discouraged from becoming pilots, she was allowed to hang around with an all male flying club. Several of those members would let her borrow their planes. I'm sure they knew she couldn't have accrued that many flight hours if she had to pay for them. One guy even let her get some yoke time in a Lockheed Electra. Ma loved multi-engine planes. She joined the WASP program so she could ferry B-17s from O'Hare (Orchard) to New Jersey. But they pulled the plug on the program before she could graduate. So, with an "I'll show them" attitude, she finished her training on her own dime. She had natural talent and intelligence, beyond what I have. So, I could never be as good as her. But if I could fly, I think that would bring me closer to her. I only wish I had known her before she got married and I was born. 

 

By the way, she used to do stunts on her father's Indian Chief motorcycle. A true wild child.  

[NSwanberg]

A physics professor once told me that the difference between physics and engineering is that in physics you can get partial credit whereas in engineering if you are wrong the bridge falls down.

 

There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't.

[Phil Hackett]

"There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't."

 

 

and the third is one who separates the two....

 

(yes, I get the original joke)