116 replies to this topic

[dc-65x]

I was very inspired by our friend Jairus Watson's posts on building a Ferrari 330 P4. I love the "look" they have, the way they sit just looks FAST . Here are the links to his beautiful creations:

1967 Ferrari 330 by Jairus Watson

Another Ferrari 330 P3 by Jairus Watson

Before I start on the Bob Cozine inspired car I thought I'd share the little bit I "think I know" about the body I'll be using. I have already built up both versions of Dynamic's Ferrari 330 P4 but they are Butyrate original bodied "Magazine Cars" and after a test run they were displayed in the Society for the Historical Preservation of Bay Area Pro Slot Car Racing (SHPBAPSCR) Museum.

Thanks to Victor Ferguson and his beautiful TrueScale bodies I can build a "Shop Car" to hammer at Eddie's Slot Car World:



OK, so we have a beautiful reproduction Dynamic body. But Dynamic actually had two versions of the P4 that were VERY different yet used the same part number . They did the same thing with their Lola T-70 coupe and roadster bodies . This is the "wide body" version (I think is the first generation) all lined up for the main event......



......and a close-up.............



........another picture from the race report..........



..............and another close-up:



I have yet to find a picture of what I think is the later "short nose" version that TrueScale is reproducing. Here is my first gen "wide body" P4............



.............and the later "short nose" P4............



................and a comparison of both side by side:







Alrighty then, whenever the heck it came out the TrueScale repop of the Dynamic Ferrari P4 is way cool so I'm putting one on a December 1967 Bob Cozine inspired recreation. Info on Bob's cars is coming up next.................

[Tex]

OMIGOD!! That one is actually a Ferrari Limo!! No offense, but it just doesn't "look right". It looks GREAT, but it doesn't look "right".

[Jairus]

Rick, I don't think that it is the "nose" that is longer... I think it is the tail! Note the size of the rear window area.

[TSR]

These are the two different Dynamic "Handling" bodies, both wider and lower than actual scale. The "long" one was the first issued and indeed its tail is longer while the nose is about the same. I think that the one used by Terry Schmid in that race was not a Dynamic 330P4 but the Lancer version that is incredibly accurate and one of the most beautiful slot car bodies ever made.
The "short" version of the Dynamic 330P4 as copied by TrueScale was modeled by Jack Garcia as the "long" one was not performing as well as they liked. It was discontinued shortly after the new version was produced and is rather hard to find today.

[dc-65x]

Hi Philippe,

I agree with everything you said except the bodies used in the race report with Terry Schmid's are indeed Dynamic bodies not the Lancer version. The caption on the MRJ photo states that the entire field is made up of all Dynamic bodies and the close-up photo of Terry's car is an exact match of my Dynamic body.

My inspiration for running gear for this project came for Bob Cozine's racers from late 1967:



MRJ's close-up article of his winning car:



I was going to build his car above but then I found his car from the ARCO NAT's:



This is the version I'm going to go for. Here is the rest of the ARCO NATS race report:







.........and a close-up of the car I'm using for "inspiration":



Next up, time to start building.......

[MSwiss]

Cool stuff.

I see current SERRA racer, Raymond Gonzalez's name ,real prominent.
Coincidently, I just sent him a 66 Fairlane body yesterday.

[TSR]

Another name from the past, Gene Thurber from Odessa, TX, became a collector of vintage Cox and other brands small gas engines.
Rick, you are right about the bodies, my single headlight is deceiving me.
Please note that there are TWO distinct Cozine chassis shown in these pages, one with a plate drop arm. Both look strongly inspired by a certain series of chassis built by a certain John Cukras a few months before...

[Howmet TX]

This is exactly where my ageing heart lies.... Beautiful, beautiful beautiful. P4s. Inline chassis. Rewound 16Ds. Can shims...
Can't wait to see your build progressing, Dc. Jairus' car was wonderful too. I will join the queue.

[Tex]

I wish there was a few more pictures of the NASCAR chassis that Emmot built for Von Ahrens. It looks like it has some wild protection built for the wheels.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Just so you know, there is a back channel discussion about having a race for this type of car, replicas and originals, at the spring convention.

Calling it "jaildoor" though I would not be opposed to calling it a "Morressey Class" for popularizing this in the day.

My suggestion is period 16ds or modern "workalikes" such as the inexpensive S16d by SpeedFX.

And perhaps the earlier versions using a standard 16d.

Fate

[dc-65x]

I wish there was a few more pictures of the NASCAR chassis that Emmot built for Von Ahrens. It looks like it has some wild protection built for the wheels.

Hi Richard,

We're in luck. Give me a few minutes and I'll scan the MRJ coverage of the Von Ahren's stocker.

Hi

Just so you know, there is a back channel discussion about having a race for this type of car, replicas and originals, at the spring convention.

Calling it "jaildoor" though I would not be opposed to calling it a "Morressey Class" for popularizing this in the day.

My suggestion is period 16ds or modern "workalikes" such as the inexpensive S16d by SpeedFX.

And perhaps the earlier versions using a standard 16d.

Fate

Hi Rocky,

Please keep up posted

[dc-65x]

Here you go Richard:





Enjoy

[endbelldrive]

OK guys...got enuff inspiration? Let's do some building!

[dc-65x]

OK guys...got enuff inspiration? Let's do some building!

"By your command!"

Okie Dokie it's time to build. Since this is not a clone but a period "korrect" (more or less ) build I decided to use the Mike Morrissey technique for installing 1/4" ball bearings with a Russkit bracket. The 5/32" aluminum tube keeps everything lined up and the 1/8" guide collars keep the whole mess together. I used the neato stepped reamer I learned about in Mike Steube's chassis building video to open up the brackets bearing hole for a Champion end bell:



Mr. Vise acts as my third hand and bingo........we have an axle bracket ready to go:



Here the jig motor and jig wheels are in place and set up in my Rick's chassis jig:



I again used the super accurate dowel pin locations in the Rick's jig along with some machinist adjustable parallels to set up the first main rails:



Then with the first rails installed it was simple to space the next rails with a 1/16" spacer rod and finish up all eight rails:



Well.......it was simple until I got to the outside rails with the little kink in them to clear the rear tires as you can see by all my boo boo's in the background



All's well that ends well. If you goof up just bend another one. K&S Metals will love you . After a good cleaning and a little metal polish we're ready for some bracket bracing and body mounts:

[dc-65x]

I installed the rear bracket bracing but I think I made a boo boo. I'm thinking the outer brace should be installed on the bottom of the bearing tube not on the top as I had to do it. The brace needs to be installed before the outer frame rail. With the outer frame rails in place there isn't really enough room to solder it. I think it would look cool to have that brace attached on the bottom of the bearing tube and inside the frame rails but I decided not to take frame apart. When you build yours you can learn from my mistake .

It still looks OK. Just not as trick as it could have :





Time to eat some turkey.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE

[Tex]

MMMmmmm........ shiny brass, steel and solder!

She's a beaut, Rick.

[tonyp]

Tex, Pete built his own winning chassis. Bob let Howie run his car as Howie did not come with a NASCAR chassis.

[JerseyJohn]

I installed the rear bracket bracing but I think I made a boo boo. I'm thinking the outer brace should be installed on the bottom of the bearing tube not on the top as I had to do it. The brace needs to be installed before the outer frame rail. With the outer frame rails in place there isn't really enough room to solder it. I think it would look cool to have that brace attached on the bottom of the bearing tube and inside the frame rails but I decided not to take frame apart. When you build yours you can learn from my mistake .

It still looks OK. Just not as trick as it could have :





Time to eat some turkey.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE

Beauty Rick.What tumbling media do you use.....

[Tex]

Tex, Pete built his own winning chassis. Bob let Howie run his car as Howie did not come with a NASCAR chassis.

Thanks, Tony... didn't pay close enough attention. At any rate, that's some wild wire-bending around those wheels!

[tonyp]

They were a pain in the butt to make, especially when they were piano wire later on. I'd just make mine go straight up and one 90 degree bend over the top.

[Hworth08]

Nice start!

The center section looks similiar to the early Champion 285 frame that used the brass rod drop arm. I do wonder why a Champion team member used a Russkit axle bracket instead of a Champion?

[Bill from NH]

I do wonder why a Champion team member used a Russkit axle bracket instead of a Champion?

Don, lighter weight & the fact they're easier to work with might be a couple. Ever try to put bearings in a plated Champion bracket?

[tonyp]

Don, No one ever used them. They were not a "Pro" item at the time...

[dc-65x]

Beauty Rick.What tumbling media do you use.....

Thanks John

I use Cabelas ceramic media and a dash of Tide Low Suds detergent for front loading machines. I didn't tumble this particular chassis. I used a Dremel wire wheel and paste metal polish with an old tee shirt and Q-tip cotton applicators.

Rick

[dc-65x]

I'm glad the Russkit bracket was so widely used by the Pros because that's what I have most of . OK, on to the body mounts and drop arm pivot.

HOLES, HOLES, AND MORE HOLES! Your jig can't have too many holes and my Rick's jig doesn't disappoint :



Just leave the tubes long and let the dowel pins line things up.....neato . I only touched the iron to the sides of the body mount pin tubes but with all the heat and acid flux the solder tins the top of the tubes. I like to sand that stuff off, not the joint, just the junk on top of the pin tubes.

Here the jigs dowel pin holes along with a brass strip spacer align the outer rails



All the "jail door" chassis I have built had "hanging chads" (lumps of solder on the bottom of the joints) caused by inconsistant and excessive solder on the joints. This time I finally got it right. I didn't keep adding solder to get a good joint. I just used acid flux and moved the iron around to flow the solder and shape the joint.

Ironically, this is exactly what you shouldn't do to make an inline perform . Rodney (SHPBAPSCR's Master Restorer and Tuner) advised me at the beginning of this build to pile on the solder especially at the rear of the chassis to add weight down low...............to make an inline GO! I also heard various Pros from the period talk about this. Many pictures of vintage Pro chassis have the solder piled on too.

Oh well, I can't help myself. I like the way this looks :



She's all cleaned up and waiting for a drop arm:

[tonyp]

Actually Rick, The best builders never piled on the solder as they understood flex and keeping things the same from side to side.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

I hope you are having fun!

In the day, I remember seeing people come in from out of town for a big money event, and not likeing their frames building new ones in a couple hours in their room without a jig!

I never tumbled my frames, it was simply a matter of time. I was lucky to have the new car actually done by the start of qualifying!

I only used a few russkit brackets and all I have are actually in cars. I more commonly used the Dubro bracket and I still have those loose. But as usual, I am not Stube!

I have proposed that we might have two classes, one for the scale body period, and one for the handlers.

We need to check with people about 1/8th axle wheels and tires in the size we use. Old tires are fine for display, but if we are going to do serious track time with them, we need a modern avaialable tire.

a 875 for the handlers(arco rules) and perhaps a 950 for the "scale" bodies.

Fate

[dc-65x]

Actually Rick, The best builders never piled on the solder as they understood flex and keeping things the same from side to side.

Hi Tony,

Is this true of the inlines too? I remember you telling me (I hope I've got this right ) that you would use 60/40 solder in places where you wanted flex and remove the excess solder between rails for the same reason. I like a chassis without a lot of solder.........it leaves more brass to polish .

[tonyp]

The good builders were always good builders. We always used to clean the solder out between the rails at least I always did and I am sure bob did. ...

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks John

I use Cabelas ceramic media and a dash of Tide Low Suds detergent for front loading machines. I didn't tumble this particular chassis. I used a Dremel wire wheel and paste metal polish with an old tee shirt and Q-tip cotton applicators.

Rick

Your work is always great. Please keep showing us

[dc-65x]

Thanks for your insight Tony. It's always appreciated. And Thanks for you support John. Here's the drop arm.......



........and the drop arms best friend, Mr. Lead Plate :





Here is the best reason I can think of for using a drop arm like Bob Cozine's on any slot car chassis. They look so freek'n cool!:



The chassis is finished:





It's time to build a motor.........or a hand grenade depending on how you look at vintage rewinds

[Tex]

Man, that lead slab looks so GOOD fitting right in there like a glove! How is it secured?

[dc-65x]

I lucked out and got such a good fit that when you slide it in place it wedges itself in "good-N-tight". So I used some epoxy along the sides of the lead and rammed her home. If it falls out I'll bite the bullet and solder it in place. It just looks so clean now...........

[JerseyJohn]

Rick the drop arm is awesome!!!!!

[Jairus]

Pretty cool bunky!

[endbelldrive]

The chassis is finished:





It's time to build a motor.........or a hand grenade depending on how you look at vintage rewinds

Man...I'm getting the same rush of adrenalyn that did when I first saw this chassis! Bring on the grenade...errr motor!

[dc-65x]

Motor time . I'm fresh out of Bob Cozine race motors so I had to come with something and this pile-O-parts is it:



This is certainly no Champion armature (maybe a Tradeship) but it looks 1967ish to me. If it's not, I'll reject your reality and substitute my own . Anywho, I've had this arm in a couple of cars and it goes like stink. It measures .2 ohms and has some CCW timing cranked in. It also looks like a bit of a hand grenade no?



So I put a band aide on it's boo boo with a thread wrap and some epoxy and took a fuzz cut on the comm:



I think the motor in Bob's car is the first gen Champion made can with the end bell retaining tabs instead of the later vent holes. I believe he has replaced the aluminum gimble bearing housing with this Champion bearing conversion:



For an end bell I was going to use this NOS 517 end bell with its factory soldered brush hood and holders:



I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I going to save it to restore a 517 I might find down the road someday. Bare end bells and bearings are available from REH but no hardware. I took the NOS job apart and it uses Champion 26D hex brush holders. Out came a REH 26D end bell kit and off came its brush holders and retaining screws. My pile-O-champion parts bin had a couple of non-plated brush hoods which will have to do.

When I assembled my end bell (on the bottom) I notice that the brush holder location was different than on the factory assembled piece (on the top) using the same parts:



Here's my end bell with the brush holder on the right in the factory assembled end bell location and on the left where it would end up if I just screwed these parts together. You can just barely see the brush holder at the red arrow:



The brush holder is located with this molded in tab in the end bell:



Here's a close up at the red arrow:



I ended up trimming off the tabs and sliding the brush holders closer together like the factory piece. With the hardware assembled I soldered the brush hoods to the brush holders using Slick7 high temp silver solder. It's an exciting process . Get the end bell too hot and you'll get a nose full of the most foul smelling crap-O-la you can imagine .

The factory solder job on the right and mine on the left:




The process that works for me is to apply some acid flux, crank the soldering iron up full bore, place a dab of solder on the tip, touch it to the joint for a second until you hear a "whoosh" from the flux so you know the solder has flowed and then IMMEDIATELY throw the end bell in a glass of water...........preferably a shot glass .

The last parts for the motor are some REH "short" 26D shunted brushes and some NOS Champion brush springs and spring posts:



I'll stop babbling now and screw the thing together.............

[Steve Deiters]

Could the armature be an early Mura meaning pre-007 laminations era unit? The reason I say that is that looks like it's a silver wind which Mura offered and a Kirkwood comm which I think was USA sourced item. The balancing marks however do not look like "typical" Mura markings. Did Tradeship, which I always thought were imported products, offer arms equipped in this manner? It's been a long time so I'm not sure.
Grenade? Well if it is indeed a Mura silver wind that weren't really known for their longevity!

[dc-65x]

Hi Steve,

It does indeed look like a Mura but as you said the balancing holes are wrong. PdL had a pile of Tradeship silver wire arms that I thought had both French and Kirkwood comms???? What ever it was in its past life it's a Bob Cozine race arm now .

FLASH! MOTOR EXPLODES WITHOUT POWER TO IT!

"Yes your honor it's true........." I was putting the thing together and heard a faint "pop" and the end bell had split clear through leaving 4 separate pieces only held together by the plastic around the bearing. Here's the carnage (in red) on one side:



I know this old plastic can get brittle but geez . The only thing I can figure is that using those self tapping screws is like driving a wedge into a piece of firewood to split it. Note to self, "Always drill and tap old end bells for machine screws, no more self tapping screws". So that's what I did for this motor. A machine screw tap cuts the thread in the plastic whereas a self tapping screw extrudes the plastic to make the threads causing lots of stress. Here is the new end bell with the old self tapping screw on top and a machine screw on the bottom. Oh, I also machined two little cookie bites into the bearing cup for motor mounting screw clearance. Champion not doing this always seemed goofy to me:



Anyway, the motor is finally together:









I broke it in on the Koford power supply and it didn't overheat and drew only about 1 1/2 amps. Time to assemble the rest of the car............

[Edo]

One day,
when you, 65x, will retire from your daily job and start making your wonderful projects avalable to us humans, all of the above and more will be MINE!
Shall I start to count the days?
E.

[dc-65x]

Hi Edo,

Yes, start counting . It could be as little as 10 months to at most (I HOPE!) 18 months. In the mean time I'm going to practice up in the world of "Genuine San Francisco Bay Area Thingies"...........a real deal Dave Lenz (Bob's younger brother) Choti bodied thingie will be in my hands again to clone soon .

[Jairus]

A REAL THINGIE!!!

[dc-65x]

Yes your honor it's true. He'll soon be holding an old thingie in his hand . And it's a real Lenz thingie at that . I even have a motor from the Dave Lenz slot box for it.

[endbelldrive]

Hi Edo,

Yes, start counting . It could be as little as 10 months to at most (I HOPE!) 18 months. In the mean time I'm going to practice up in the world of "Genuine San Francisco Bay Area Thingies"...........a real deal Dave Lenz (Bob's younger brother) Choti bodied thingie will be in my hands again to clone soon .

Congratulations,
I retired a few years back and it's far from boring. The creative floodgates opened up and I'm having more fun building slot cars than I did during the first go round some 40+ years ago...thanks in great part to the posting of those old Model Car Journal articles.

[Edo]

Captain
we must prepare your early retirement plan immediately !

Now that you're getting (finally!) into Thingies (Choties, no less!) there is an urgent need around here to get serious.

I mean, this BEAUTY you made a while ago just left Us hungry for more:






(ElectricDreams's Bullet body painted by master Watson)

So much to do, so little time!



PS Gentlemen, please forgive the old K for disturbing this thread but He's gotta do what's gotta be done!

[dc-65x]

I can't wait to join you in retirement land Bob . Edo, that thingie I built you will be a tough act for me to follow . I think it is one of the nicest I've ever done. After all, royalty deserves nothing but one's best efforts .

Anyway, what do you think of these Champion wheels? I added some black paint to accent their "baby moon" hub cap style:





When I run the car at Eddie's I'm going to try these Alpha Supernatural jobs. I narrowed the wheel up to the same size as the Champion which cleaned up their horrid modern appearance a bit:



Then I narrowed the tire to .625 wide like the Champion:



Here's a comparo of the "downsized" Alpha and the Champion with fresh Riggen rubber:





And the finished roller ready for that swoopy Ferrari body:









I discovered I needed a little more clearance between the body and the Cox guide post screw so I came up with this:



It's a Dynamic 4-40 flat head machine screw. It sits a little lower as it eliminates the self tapping screw and flat washer.

Onward...................

[Jairus]

Wow, I like the wheel details. Excellent idea... and I have a set of those just waiting for a project.

[Mike Steube]

Shockkkkkkkkk! Steube wandered off the D-3 thread! Real purdy. That is one beautiful car.

[TSR]

Hi Mike,
Welcome to the World of Dreams...

[Raymond 'Speedy' Gonzalez]

Rick, that is one beautiful reproduction. The only thing wrong is Bob would never approve of the limited amount of lead on your drop arm.


Raymond "Speedy" Gonzalez