222 replies to this topic

[Slotgeezer]

Well, I feel vindicated, now that I'm not the only one who has experienced quality issues w/ the motors we're getting from Slick 7 for our Can-Am class... :snooty:
But... that doesn't address the problem of finding a good, affordable motor that will allow everyone to buy something over-the-counter, & expect it to perform as required to compete within this new class... :naughty:
Now, I'll be fielding a few Slick 7 motors in the future, along w/ some JK III's that were recently given to me, & some TSRF motors I've received for building projects for friends... :think: ... when the JK V is available, I'll try a few of those, too... by testing & gearing properly, I'll hopefully learn which motors seem to give the best service, vs. longevity & cost...
The monthly F1-Indy race experienced the smoke & thunder of the Slick 7 mini-motor monster, too, as Tore had one slow-down on him in our open-wheel race! ....
I have suggested that the "pooped-out" violators be boxed-up & shipped up to Rudy, as a sign of our desire to find the problem & have it fixed... the product, when right, is exceptional... it's just to chancey trying to buy 10 motors to find that one race motor... :evil:
So, I'll asked the Los Angeles USRA Division III Scratchbuilt Can-Am class racers to post comments here concerning your experience racing the sealed mini-motors, & comment on which models & manufacturers seem to be getting it right, & which one's are dropping the ball, in this application... :|
Don't feel you need to kiss-up to anyone concerning your opinions concerning how these motors have performed for you in your racing program... by giving actual field-test results, under these extreme racing conditions, maybe we'll convince the manufacturers to provide us w/ a product that WON'T take 10 motors bought to find one or two race-ready motors... we'd all like to buy a motor, & a back-up, & go racing, leaving more time for practice & chassis developement, & less time spent trying to solve the mystery of "The Fast Sealed Motor"... :roll:
Thank you, racers... your input is requested to solve an apparently increasing problem... only time will tell if our efforts are successful... :up: ... Good racing!

[idare2bdul]

I feel vindicated, now that I'm not the only one who has experienced quality issues w/ the motors we're getting from Slick 7

Actually we noticed that each of the defective motors had a small tag that said ship to Jeff Easterly. Did you do something to tick off Rudy?

I spoke to Paul Sterrett about this problem and he is reluctant to go to "D" cans because they don't handle as well. "C" can motors might be too fast.(HMMMM didn't the geezers stick big wire serious motors in these things back in the day?)
I'm just along for the ride, no real opinion since I haven't tested with other options. I feel bad for Rudy because he spent a lot of years building a reputation for quality. I doubt he saw this problem coming.

[TSR]

There is not a single reason to go "D" cans when about EVERY OTHER BRAND (Mabuchi, Plafit, TSRF, Falcon, FLY "Racing"..) of FK-size motors has little or no reliability problems.
The problem is strictly with the current batch of S7 of which a large percentage have serious quality-control issues. While I am sure that Rudy will address the issue, we could in the meantime, switch to another single brand even at the cost of losing 2 or 3 tenths of a second per lap, that is until we have a guarantee of reliability from a new batch of S7. I must remind that the same happened with the very first batch of Falcon motors that had defective brush holders, and the manufacturer's agent recalled the motors and had the factory replace them with new ones that have been utterly reliable.

I am also in favor of hand-out motors in the same manner as used inthe TSRF races. It is a fair system that makes racing a lot more accessible to all. This will stop people from buying 20 motors to find "The One" to race.

I suggest that we, the racers, vote on both matters so that the organisers of the series know how we feel as a whole.
Comments are welcome.

[John E]

by none other than the original organiser of the Can-Am series, handout motors wouldn't really work.

They work in the TSRF races cause we've standardised the gearing and there's no soldering involved in using the motors.

Some guys, like me for example, are using a combination of solder and one motor screw to hold my Can-Am motors in place, plus we're all soldering the lead wires on.

I don't think that we necessarily want to dictate a gear ratio and without doing that, who wants to chance getting a motor that may have stressed to it's breaking point by the previous user? There's just enough discrepancy and differences in the various types of cars that one gear ratio won't work, in my opinion.

The lead wires can be attached without using solder but that would necessitate sourcing a large supply of mini female slide connectors. I might be doing that just to minimise the time it takes to change the motor anyway but would you want to draw a motor that someone else has been soldering on? No thanks.

Same thing goes for those soldering the motors in place.

While I've been the victim of motor failure myself I'd rather leave it up to the individual racer as to what they want to do, there are folks who haven't had any problems at all.

As for buying 20 to get 1, I don't know offhand of anybody actually buying that many at one time but even if they did, that's about the same cost as 1.5 blueprinted, Grp12 C can motors. We're still working with the cheapest motor program in slot car racing that I've ever been in involved in.

Not to mention that having motor problems is simply part of the equation of racing.

The guys who spend the most time and effort on their racing are gonna win most of the races, regardless of how much money anyone spends. I'd rather buy 10 motors and spend a whopping 80 bucks, that puts the impetus for testing and doing the work on me, where it belongs. Unless of course I can get Dennis to do it for me...;^)

John Emmons
Asst. Umbrella Boy Team Samson Classics

[Jairus]

I vote we all use one type of motor that has a good record of reliability thus far and the Falcon V seems to fit that bill. Every one that I have run seems to perform consistently and evenly.

The use of slide-on female connectors is a wonderful idea and I am heading down to the local Norvac Electronics store today to find some!

[KenMiles]

Hi Racers.

My vote goes for Pro Slot's new Euro-1. I'm not in favor of the delicate and fragile nature of FK type motors.

ThanX, 8)

[Pablo]

I KNEW I would be famous someday

Radio Shack connector part #64-3095. I took a red one, cut it in half and custom fit them so the male half fits snugly into the female half. Then used heat shrink tubing from Radio Shack to insulate. With practice and imagination you might build a better one than me! The final product should be about 1/2 inch long (from end to end of shrink tubing), 3mm diameter, straight, clean, perfect tight fit, strong, and fully insulated. Now you don't have to heat up your endbell to change a motor anymore. :twisted:

[GT40]

I've expressed my opinions at length elsewhere on the Blog, but briefly...

Monday nights at Foster's we race mini-motors in stock or modified Flexi type chassis, with vintage bodies. I started in this a couple of years ago with the Falcons, switched to the Slick 7s when they came out for the perfomance. I've had similar probelms with the Slick 7 motors. In addition, I had a bizarre problem of a car with one of these motors not counting on some lanes, over a certain speed. Tried everything, the problem went away when I dropped in a Falcon 5, and I didn't notice a significant decrease in performance.

So I'm using Falcon 5s in both of my Monday night cars and in the inline Can-Am. So far so good.

I completely understand the aversion to horsepower and cost escalation, and I agree that D-cans are too heavy, and C-cans take us where we don't want to go.

That said, I'm with Allen on the new ProSlot mini-motor if they come out with one that is competitive. I don't mind paying more for a motor with an endbell, real brushes and springs, and hopefully an armature with a better comm. Pro-Slot is apprently willing to sell sealed versions. Since they are selling different versions of them anyway, why not spec a "Vintage Can-Am" version and see if they interested? Probably be a lot of other applications for it.

Steve

[Dirt Trackin It]

We had little or no problems on thursday nights running the Slick 7 motors. Most guys Gear them 12/36 12/37 "64pitch" Remember we use .720 tall tires . I purchased 2 motors and i have yet to even test the 2nd motor. If you use the same gearing with the taller .820 tires you will run into problems. so you will have to run it a little higher. Don't the rules let you run Falcon motors as well as Slick 7?? If you are having problems with the Slick7 then run a falcon.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

I made this offer to P, and I make it to all of you.

Any failed FKcans from this abuse.... send them to me and I will do a teardown.

the thing here is that I am not in the series or selling motors!

To see if there is a common problem.

Also, find out what the power really is at the track when Chris "dials up" the power for the race.

Fate

[Mike K]

" I had a bizarre problem of a car with one of these motors not counting on some lanes, over a certain speed. Tried everything, the problem went away when I dropped in a Falcon 5,"

Mike Hudson/Chris G-
Could the MOTOR be the problem with the lap counter on the Kingleman???

When you tested the track after the race some of the rental cars were used and they have Falcon motors, if I recall correctly??

[TSR]

I believe that at this time, the Pro-Slot is unproven and the three samples kindly sent to me were dead slow and one threw a wire. I am sure that they will get a lot better soon.
I am told that they were designed to run on home tracks at 16 volts which would explain their low speed at 12-volt.

I believe that the FK motors (except for the S7) have proven to be very reliable, especially the second generation Falcon and the TSRF that are one and the same.

As far as the handout system I was envisioning for the retro Can-Am class, the price of a motor would be included in the entry fee and the motor would be retained after the race by the entrant to be used as a practice motor or other uses. For each race there would have a special marking on the motors to avoid the use of any "massaged" motors from over-competitive enthusiasts with low moral standards. Unfortunately, we did catch a couple of those in TSRF racing, and this is when we began the handout/take back system that so far has been working well.

This means that if there are let say, 8 to 10 races per year, it still would cost a lot less for an entrant than buying 20 motors at a time to find one good one.

If enough people are interested, I am willing to provide the organisation with as many as 500 motors in which they could select the most even through power pack and ampmeter testing, and use them for the races. These would then be sold by the retailers at regular pricing. To make sure of no cheating of any kind, neutral parties would attend the testing and a sealed box of the motors would then be delivered to the track owner(s), and would be specially marked in time for each race.

It would be simple to manage, and fair for everyone.

[Dirt Trackin It]

" I had a bizarre problem of a car with one of these motors not counting on some lanes, over a certain speed. Tried everything, the problem went away when I dropped in a Falcon 5,"

Mike Hudson/Chris G-
Could the MOTOR be the problem with the lap counter on the Kingleman???

When you tested the track after the race some of the rental cars were used and they have Falcon motors, if I recall correctly??

Mike K.

Chris got the lap counter on the kingleman fixed, it was just a loose ground somewhere, we had no problems with it last week, also no one had any motor problems of any kind that i am aware of. I believe all were running Slick7 motors.

[KenMiles]

I believe that at this time, the Pro-Slot is unproven and the three samples kindly sent to me were dead slow and one threw a wire. I am sure that they will get a lot better soon.
I am told that they were designed to run on home tracks at 16 volts which would explain their low speed at 12-volt.

I believe that the FK motors (except for the S7) have proven to be very reliable, especially the second generation Falcon and the TSRF that are one and the same.

As far as the handout system I was envisioning for the retro Can-Am class, the price of a motor would be included in the entry fee and the motor would be retained after the race by the entrant to be used as a practice motor or other uses. For each race there would have a special marking on the motors to avoid the use of any "massaged" motors from over-competitive enthusiasts with low moral standards. Unfortunately, we did catch a couple of those in TSRF racing, and this is when we began the handout/take back system that so far has been working well.

This means that if there are let say, 8 to 10 races per year, it still would cost a lot less for an entrant than buying 20 motors at a time to find one good one.

If enough people are interested, I am willing to provide the organisation with as many as 500 motors in which they could select the most even through power pack and ampmeter testing, and use them for the races. These would then be sold by the retailers at regular pricing. To make sure of no cheating of any kind, neutral parties would attend the testing and a sealed box of the motors would then be delivered to the track owner(s), and would be specially marked in time for each race.

It would be simple to manage, and fair for everyone.

Hi Philippe, Racers.

Chris Gallegos (BPR owner) said something interesting the other night. Chris said that he was about to purchase a slotcar motor dyno that actually works. I hadn't considered any significance of that dyno to BP CanAm until this discussion. So there it is, folks, a can of fresh worms to discuss. (Since the oceans are all fished out!)

Otherwise, I was in the 'B' main on the strength of my motor. There were 'C' main racers who were better racers than myself who didn't have that 'magic' motor. I almost feel guilt- but only almost! :roll: Mostly, I feel lucky.

My vote still goes for Pro Slot's new Euro-1. Even after the Euro is cooked, I can take it apart and install another armature, a replacement or even a domestic wind should I desire. (as armature manufacturers will accomodate any fit and wind you'd spec your arms) The point is I'm not stuck throwing my investment away. Even with my old Koford Feather 12's, I was able to buy magnets and give them new life- because they're durable and standard.

ThanX,

Ken Miles smiles 8)

[TSR]

Chris got the lap counter on the kingleman fixed, it was just a loose ground somewhere, we had no problems with it last week, also no one had any motor problems of any kind that i am aware of. I believe all were running Slick7 motors.

Mike,
Tore blew his F1 motor yesterday. About 15 motors I am aware were blown last week including several during the three Can-Am mains. Mike Steube told me that he had no less than two that died on him while testing. I had Dennis Samson right on front of me who actually opened the blown (ONE race lap!) thing only to discoiver that the brush holder had been stamped offset, allowing the brush to simply fall off after destroying the comm.

An hour before the Can-Am, we ran the 200+ grams heavy NASCAR piles in the TSRF race with handout motors with already several races on them. Zero motor failures and only one that was a bit slower than the others. ALL FK's are NOT equally reliable.

Allen, the cost of what you are suggesting (repair) is higher than buying a new FK motor. Sticking a "domestic" arm means an immediate arms race (no pun intended). So what's your point again?

I rest my case and will let you people decide whatever you want, hoping that this great class won't go the way of the previous equally successful Vintage Can-Am of 4 years ago, a class that died after the sealed Parma Deathstar of the time melted on track with regularity until we all gave up.
:|

P.S: I just had a talk with Tore and Bryan Warmack, as they are in our shop right now, and they have no problem with selected (equalized) hand-out TSRF FK-series motors.
I suggested the TSRF because of easy access and convenience, if you prefer to get a whole bunch of motors from JK it is fine with me. It's not like I am going to get rich on this.

[KenMiles]

Allen, the cost of what you are suggesting (repair) is higher than buying a new FK motor. Sticking a "domestic" arm means an immediate arms race (no pun intended). So what's your point again?

Hi Philippe. It's cost over the long run. I have so far purchased five motors to get that one magic motor. So my cost is really $40+ for that one fast motor. Then all those are tossed once cooked, because they offer no utility once cooked.

You are correct to point out the 'arms race' problem. But this is not exactly what I'd meant. My point is that however I use that setup once the arm is cooked, I still have options- I can replace the arm with direct replacement, or I can use it in some other manner, just as I have with my 14 year old Koford Feather 12's. I can still make playthings with these old setups because they're durable and not cheaply made.

I have already decided against purchasing any more S7's, and I'm standing the fence on whether I will purchase any more FK type motors. They're cheaply made, and I believe it unrealistic to expect quality performance from them. It's the 'blood from a rock' cliche.

At the same time I appreciate the arguments in favor of sealed motors. De Bella says he can provide them as such. Even once cooked, I can use them for other than CanAm. And this is my point- it's the cost of slotracing in the long term.

As it stands, it is NOT an arms race, but IS a motors race- motors which are useless when done.

ThanX,

Ken Miles squeaks as he walks! 8)

[John E]

Philippe, are you saying that each race's entry fee would include a new motor?

In round numbers, how much would that cost?

We're paying a $9.00 entry fee now, if one adds the retail cost of a TSRF motor into that, we're talking what, $24.00 or so each race?

So now we've taken a fairly simple, scratch built class and turned it into what?

Here's my proposal, lets keep the motor rules as they are, let the racer decide if they want to buy a Falcon or a Slick 7 motor or three and then turn the power on.

I've been the victim of a bad motor myself, that doesn't mean I want to triple the entry fee of each race.

It's not about you or anyone getting rich, the cost of racing is low compared to other hobbies but why make it unneccessarily more expensive?

If you have something else in mind, please correct me.

John Emmons
Searching for the perfect Falcon 5...

[Jairus]

Agreed!
No hand out motor and keep the rules as they are. Just avoid the Slick 7 for now....

[KenMiles]

Agreed!
No hand out motor and keep the rules as they are. Just avoid the Slick 7 for now....

Hi Jairus.

Interestingly, Chris Gallegos suggested allowing a transition period of three more races, then cutoff the S7. This allows a cushion in which owners of S7's can utilize their motors, while giving ample time and opportunity to make the shift. But certainly it appears a shift is in the works.

Oh, and saw your new chassis, Jairus. Cool!

ThanX,

Ken Miles smiles 8)

[Jairus]

Agreed!
No hand out motor and keep the rules as they are. Just avoid the Slick 7 for now....

Hi Jairus.

Interestingly, Chris Gallegos suggested allowing a transition period of three more races, then cutoff the S7. This allows a cushion in which owners of S7' can utilize their motors, while giving ample time and opportunity to make the shift. But certainly it appears a shift is in the works.

Oh, and saw your new chassis. Cool!

ThanX,

Ken Miles smiles 8)

Thank you Ken/Allen, too bad it DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO RUN!!!!
(bitter, no... why do you ask?)

[Mike K]

MAGIC MOTORS-

Just ask Chris Gallegos for one. That's how I get mine. He always has one for me every time I go to buy one.

It is ALWAYS first package on the peg on the wall! :roll: :mrgreen:

[TSR]

Mike,
The fact that you and I got lucky means little to the ones blowing these things right and left. This is EXACTLY how the previous Vintage Can-Am program died.

[Hworth08]

Perhaps ProSlot would build a CanAm tagged, American built, low timed, tied, drill blank, in other words a Group 12 quality arm to fit in the Euro setup. The cost would be in the 40 to 50 dollar range but the motor should have a long life. Another 15 to 20 dollars to blueprint and condition the arm but a low RPM motor like that with reasonable ( don't burn it up) gearing should last years of once monthly racing.

Perhaps a motor a bit slower than today's choices would help even the racing a bit. The slower a motor the better the car handles almost every time.