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#1 M. Lovelace

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 05:56 PM

What is the best stuff to use to make spray glue? I have my new track running and would like to know what works best.
Malcolm Lovelace




#2 Rick

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:01 PM

Naphtha is the best, BAR NONE! VM&P, buy it in a five gallon can, will last for a long time and also best to clean track with...

OOPS, PS: BTW buy the silver "Spraymaster" spray bottle, they last the very best of any I tried over the years. I think Lowes or Home Depot now carries them, too.
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#3 M. Lovelace

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:17 PM

What do you mix with the naphtha?
Malcolm Lovelace

#4 Rick

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:23 PM

I would mix a complete* bottle of medium glue to a quart of naphtha. I always had a good racing surface and would lightly spray the entire track a mist coat and then give the turns the second coat.

* Turn the bottle upside down, poke a hole in the bottom, and let it sit for an hour so it completely drains into the spray bottle. Add half the naphtha and shake the hell out of it until it is ALL dissolved, then add the rest of the naphtha and shake again.
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#5 M. Lovelace

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:54 PM

Thanks for the info.
Malcolm Lovelace

#6 4laneron

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 07:01 PM

I use Coleman fuel and STP on my home track, one part STP to five parts Coleman fuel.
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#7 Slapshot

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 07:04 PM

Added notes:

Items you will need: nitrile gloves, Koford Medium Glue, solvent-friendly spray bottle, Lowes/Home Depot naphtha, shop rags helpers.

Use naphtha because it doesn't have fusel oils in it like Coleman fuel.

Put on some nitrile blue latex gloves.

Gather some racers and get them involved in track cleaning as a ritual they want to race it they clean the track.

Clean track using naphtha and shop rags.

Soak one rag with naphtha and wipe track in traffic direction constantly overturning rag and keep damp, doing a small section at a time.

Then imediately go back while still damp with dry rag and wipe again, overturning rag and in traffic direction (doesn't burr braid or catch rag fiber).

Get a quart spray bottle fill half full with naphtha then add bottle Koford Medium glue and shake. When dissoved fill remainder with naphtha to top.

Mix Koford Medium, it doesn't break down and turn into a slime pit later, keeps the rubber attached to it for all day racing.

Spray the corners (about two feet away)with a mist about a foot into straight and stop. Don't do straights.

Then let sit for 15-20 miutes to allow naphtha to evaporate some.

Its also important to practice on it for about a half hour each lane before racing to break the lanes in. Free track time moment.

Dispose of rags soaking in water and place in outside ventalated area. Spontaneous combustable.
Raymond Batchelor

#8 Phil Irvin

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 02:44 AM

VM&P..NAPHTHA... THE ONLY WAY TO FLY...

I use it for most everything. I will not use lighter fluid. It overly dries tires. I buy a quart at a time for home use and a gallon at a time for shop use. Whatever works better for you. Here in MO, Lowes doesn't have the "Spraymaster" in metal.

Phil I.

#9 grego

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 06:29 AM

I use Coleman fuel and STP on my home track, one part STP to five parts Coleman fuel.

STP make several products, like oil additive, fuel additive, upper cylinder head additive, etc., etc. Could you please tell me which product you are using?

Thanks,
Grego Abbott

#10 GB14x

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 10:08 AM

Advice from 40+ year racer Bob K. says to avoid Coleman fuel and red glue (too oily).

Maybe ask Mike at Tom Thumb Hobbies, his track is usually right on, and lasts all day.
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#11 4laneron

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 12:03 PM

It is STP Oil Treatment.
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#12 Prof. Fate

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 01:11 PM

Hi.

And add an ounce of methyl salycilate... aka "oil of Wintergreen" for that nostalgic smell!

Fate
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#13 Garry

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 01:26 PM

:D controversy, controversy, the last time I looked at the formulation for coleman fuel it said it was 100% naptha, if its got anything else in it they are not reporting it. as for not putting oil in your spray glue mixture all of you commercially available glue has some kind of oil additive in it to reduce the rubber that is used to make the glue. therefore how do you get rid of the oil in the glue? use the thick stuff, camen brown, it may have the least amount of oil in it. if you want no oil in your spray glue you need to mix the raw rubber material with the solvent of your choice, naptha or coleman fuel. beware if you get the raw rubber and use it you will be stuck. the glue needs to have some kind of oil in it to work the way we need it. :unsure:
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#14 Rick

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 02:26 PM

:D controversy, controversy, the last time I looked at the formulation for coleman fuel it said it was 100% naptha, if its got anything else in it they are not reporting it. as for not putting oil in your spray glue mixture all of you commercially available glue has some kind of oil additive in it to reduce the rubber that is used to make the glue. therefore how do you get rid of the oil in the glue? use the thick stuff, camen brown, it may have the least amount of oil in it. if you want no oil in your spray glue you need to mix the raw rubber material with the solvent of your choice, naptha or coleman fuel. beware if you get the raw rubber and use it you will be stuck. the glue needs to have some kind of oil in it to work the way we need it. :unsure:

2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS


INGREDIENT NAME
EXPOSURE LIMITS
CONCENTRAION
PERCENT BY VOLUME

Light Hydrotreated Distillate
CAS NUMBER: 68410-97-9
Petroleum Distillate (Naphtha)
TWA-400ppm
100.0%
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#15 4laneron

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 02:34 PM

Hi

And add an ounce of Methel Salicilate...aka "oil of Wintergreen" for that nostalgic smell!

Fate

Back in the late 60's early 70's the track I raced at sold green grip it had that wintergreen smell
Ron Warner

#16 Mark Wampler

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 03:43 PM

I don't know, but have you thought about a chemical free track? :)

Merry Christmas
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#17 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 05:40 PM

I clean my tracks with 100% Simple Green (no added water), thereby eliminating some of the stench and fire hazard. I spray the Simple Green on and let it sit for a minute or two, then wipe it off with clean rags. I wrap the rags around a sponge mop for leverage (and to save my aged back). I glue with the already mentioned Koford Medium. 1 bottle of glue to 1 qt. of the dreaded Naptha. Bite is never a problem and the track is comfortable to race on for about two weeks.

I spray the corners and about a foot into and out of each corner only.

In the dim past (circa the Retro Era) I used alcohol and castor oil.

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#18 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 05:34 PM

Advice from 40+ year racer Bob K. says to avoid Coleman fuel and red glue (too oily). Maybe ask Mike at Tom Thumb Hobbies, his track is usually right on, and lasts all day.

I have been using Camen brown and naptha for years. 2 bottles of brown to 1.5 quarts of naptha. The sprayer I have has been working for years without any problems and can be found here HERE !

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#19 Mark Greene

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 05:55 PM

:D controversy, controversy, the last time I looked at the formulation for coleman fuel it said it was 100% naptha, if its got anything else in it they are not reporting it. as for not putting oil in your spray glue mixture all of you commercially available glue has some kind of oil additive in it to reduce the rubber that is used to make the glue. therefore how do you get rid of the oil in the glue? use the thick stuff, camen brown, it may have the least amount of oil in it. if you want no oil in your spray glue you need to mix the raw rubber material with the solvent of your choice, naptha or coleman fuel. beware if you get the raw rubber and use it you will be stuck. the glue needs to have some kind of oil in it to work the way we need it. :unsure:

We've got a winner!!!

We use one bottle Koford medium to 32 oz Coleman fuel. Tracks are always hooked up and never slimey. If anything the Coleman evaporates quicker and leaves less of a odor.

#20 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 06:32 PM

I'm no chemist but I was told by one that there are many grades of naphtha. There is even a "medical" grade... no idea what makes it "medical" except for the price. The grades are defined, so I am told, by the degree of purity during manufacture. I have not noticed a huge difference between VMP naptha and Coleman except it does seem to take longer to "slime" when using VMP, which is a good thing :)

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#21 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 06:56 PM

Raymond (Slapshot) has it right. That's the way we do our newly refurbished Oglivie. We were told not to use Coleman fuel on the epoxy surface, only to use pure naphtha for cleaning, and that was told to us by Oglivie. It works well for us. We even use the same glue formula that Ray pointed out. The nitrile gloves are a requirement as is good ventilation when cleaning and gluing. The gloves can be bought cheaply at Harbor Freight.

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#22 Rick

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:04 PM

I checked and Coleman Fuel now apears to be 100% naptha. ( as someone stated in this thread) Look at their MSDS sheet.

The Coleman Fuel I remembered from a while ago was white gas.( Like AMOCO Premium) I would trust most people today still remember that as being Coleman fuel.

I knew there would be many various opinions on how to do it right? I operated a track for 15 years and had a good reputation for always having good bite. And we raced locally everything from Playfit to Group 7 on occasion. I will still hang my hat on a LIGHT spray over the entire track and then redo the corners. No break in required, ZERO.

If you look at the different mixes and methods they all end up about the same. I don't prefer Koford over Camen. I used to colect up the thrown out glue bottles from big races and just combine them until I had a full bottle and then mix.

One thing none touched on, what to do when you over spray glue the track. It will happen now and then. Here's the cure for that. Grab something that has some nice fat tires on it, and enough torque to pull the glue and not burn up. Clean the tires real good with lighter fluid(naptha) and run some laps on the lane, clean tires again and repeat until you have sopped up the extra glue. Sure beats cleaning the whole track again...................
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#23 Phil Irvin

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 02:39 AM

Usta do that with Nahptha to reactivate a 3 week ol spray. Had a LEAD sled with some 1 in wide 1 in diameter tires. Soak the tires. Run 5 laps move. get some racer (spelled sucker) to run right behind you :laugh2: do it again 8 lanes....

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#24 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 09:34 AM

One thing none touched on, what to do when you over spray glue the track. It will happen now and then. Here's the cure for that. Grab something that has some nice fat tires on it, and enough torque to pull the glue and not burn up. Clean the tires real good with lighter fluid(naptha) and run some laps on the lane, clean tires again and repeat until you have sopped up the extra glue. Sure beats cleaning the whole track again...................


We do something very similar to what Rick has described here, only we do it with rental cars. The rental car fleet has the synthetic rubber tires that are very open pored. We cleaned the rental car tires and run a rental car on each lane for 100-150 laps cleaning the tires with naptha every so often. This helps spread the glue around and eliminate overly glued patches. That way no one burns up a 16D or S16D race motor by it getting overly bogged down. The Parma deathstar motors in the rentals can handle that job well and the synthetic rubber tires keep them from getting too hot, but they do work that glue around nicely and make it nice and even around the track.

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#25 M. Lovelace

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 07:20 PM

I have been using Camen brown and naptha for years. 2 bottles of brown to 1.5 quarts of naptha. The sprayer I have has been working for years without any problems and can be found here HERE !


Mike do you sell the Camen brown?

Thanks for the info.

Malcolm
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#26 Slapshot

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:29 PM

Mainly in commercial venues if the local fire department walks through thier going to cite you if they see the Coleman Fuel not stored in a metal Flamables liquides storage unit. On the other hand they will probaly do the same for a Napha containers too but again thats the fire department.

Which reminds me I have to fill the camper stove with Colman Fuel as a storms heading this way and power bound to get knocked out.

I am sure many have had good luck using Colman Fuel. Theres no harm in using it but be more careful. I am not going to prove anyone wrong. If Colman has changed to a non petrolium based Napha thats great.

It also is like government rating Alcohol content and proof rating in the Liquor buisness none match up. As 100 proof is not the same as 100% alcohol content. They all contain an mixed addative or bonding chemical aside from the 100%.

For Colman Fuel and Napha there are hundreds of MSDS reviews all not the same. I have looked many times at thier MSDS and aftermarket government review MSDS. Unfortunately Coleman is still a petrolium based Napha. Petrolium Fuel based means combustable addatives. Napha in most solvent based are similar but may not have or may have these same ingredients as it often comes from the same plant. Often times the solvent form has to conform to goverment regulations as to not be fuel based. Sometimes it slips through.

If you look at the end of Colmans own MSDS they specify it has small traces of certain combustable addatives for the fuel basis aside from the 100% by weight Napha.
Due to government regulations on these petrolium addatives they are still reviewed as White gas by the ratings. Thier 100% is based on weight.

Colman Fuel MSDS

Hydrotreated Light Distillate, CAS # 68410-97-9, OSHA-500 ppm, 100.0

This product contains:

*Cyclohexane, CAS # 110-82-7, OSHA-300 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm

*Nonane, CAS # 111-84-2, ACGIH-200 ppm

*Octane, CAS # 111-65-9, OSHA-400 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm

*Heptane, CAS # 142-82-5, OSHA-500 ppm, ACGIH-400 ppm

*Pentane, CAS # 109-66-0, OSHA-1000 ppm, ACGIH-600 ppm



I am sure some one will debate this but feel free to use Coleman or the Napha of your choice it is how it is sprayed and the safety methods you use that matter.

Raymond
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#27 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:43 PM

Mike do you sell the Camen brown?

Thanks for the info.

Malcolm

Yes Malcolm. I will have more in by Friday.

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#28 Ken Bryan

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:05 PM

For the last 2 years we have used "stick it lightly" on tires. This week I am going to clean the track (for the first time in a year) and put down some spray glue in preparation for our race next Saturday. I got some thicker glue from Mike Swiss, but not exactly sure how to thin it (have a variety of chemicals) and what to use to spray it. Any advice would be welcome.

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#29 Victor Poulin

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:20 PM

Ken,

I use Camen brown. I mix about 3oz with around 10-12 oz of naptha. Make sure you shake it up real good. Use a good quality spray bottle, and just mist it where you want it on the track. Dont over do it. It doesnt take very much. Give it a few minutes to tack up, and your good to go. What I like about it is it seems to really last well, and its very easy to wash off. Hope this helps.

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#30 Mark Wampler

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:04 PM

Wow Ken I was hoping that your track would always be chem free. I understand others coming from out of the area would make it necessary for glue. Nuther subject.

That's a testament to having a chem free track, not having to clean it for a year! Try to do that with a glue track. ;) So the maintenance is going to escalate if you're going to use glue.

Pardon the interruption. I hope it works for ya
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#31 Zippity

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:14 PM

Spray lightly in the braking zone at each corner, let stand for 20 minutes then drive an old car (you don't want to *&^% up a good motor) on each lane for 20 or 30 laps to evenly apply the "goo" around each lane.

Experiment and apply more "goo" if necessary in the braking zone only.

You will be surprised at just how little "goo" you need to apply. :)

#32 Zippity

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:00 AM

Addendum:

The "Secret Recipe" that I was given while I was in California (and the mix we use on the Wellington track) is one bottle of Light or Heavy tire goo (or goop) dissolved in 1 litre of lighter fluid or Fuelite.

The lighter fluid is the carrier of the goo which dissolves in the air within a couple of hours of being sprayed on the track - we try to leave it overnight. The goo is sprayed about 2 foot into the corner (the breaking area) and just out of the curve (the acceleration area). We run house cars around the track for about 30 or 40 laps to evenly spread the goo around the lanes.

I purchased a heavy duty 1.25 litre trigger type spray bottle while I was in the States. You need one that will not clog up with the goo hence the need to let it dissolve in the carrier (fuelite) mixture - just make sure that it is well shaken/stirred before you start to spray/apply it to the track.

#33 idare2bdul

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:35 AM

Wow Ken I was hoping that your track would always be chem free. I understand others coming from out of the area would make it necessary for glue. Nuther subject.

That's a testament to having a chem free track, not having to clean it for a year! Try to do that with a glue track. ;) So the maintenance is going to escalate if you're going to use glue.

Pardon the interruption. I hope it works for ya
.

Wow Mark don't you race on spray glue pretty much all the time at BP and Fosters? There is an altenative which the home track guys use, magnets and silicone tires, but most commercial tracks have been using spray glue for quite awhile. Even without spray glue if you don't clean a track it gets dusty and traction is gone.
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#34 Mark Wampler

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 02:12 AM

Wow Mark don't you race on spray glue pretty much all the time at BP and Fosters? There is an altenative which the home track guys use, magnets and silicone tires, but most commercial tracks have been using spray glue for quite awhile. Even without spray glue if you don't clean a track it gets dusty and traction is gone.


Hi Mike :wave:

Yes I do. Glue addict here, lol. I've said this before, but worth repeating. Commercial tracks with F-7 and higher horsepower need the glue. Jail Door cars could probably do fine without it, but the tires would have be widened to compensate for loss of grip. Sure, low powered home tracks and motors are good with silicones. So it was back in the day. I tried out a pair of recapped silicones on BP's King track incognito. They held very nice, but squealing around the corners had people wondering what was going on. :D The 10 thou or so silicone film began to wear rapidly. I 'd say after 15-17 minutes or so, the handling started to go away with running an F7. I needed to prove it to myself. Fun, but not practical. I'm not up on my history, but glued tracks were not something done in the mid 60's as I remember, at least not locally. I quit in '68 and there was no glue where I raced.

It would be a challenge to use a tire treatment only format and see how everyone does then. Maybe 2 or 3 tenths slower without the glue, but make for some iinteresting racing. Its way too late to start chem free tracks. If a track has a good chem free race program already,then more power to 'em. I'm not a greenie weenie either, but think how nice it would be for track owners to eliminate a lot of track cleaning. Just dusting is all you need.
You can quote me.

-Mark

#35 Ron Hershman

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 12:51 PM

For best results only use VMP Naptha..... make sure it says VMP.

Do not use Coleman Fluid for cleaning and/or mixing with glue. This will make for a slick racing surface.

#36 Prof. Fate

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:05 PM

Hi

Mark, we were using "glue" in the mid 60s. At least I was. Was NOT using spray glue, though. Personally, I was doing a 50/50 mix of Oil of wintergreen and STP as my glue.

A stock 36d with silicones is fine on a clean track. A rewind is chancy. Hotter than that and even sillies cannot hook up well.

Locally there is a hillclimb that doesn't allow foam or glue and is carefully cleaned constantly. They only use plastic RTRs. AND? A stock NSR with silicones will spin all the way down the straight. A D3 will spin all the way down the straigt and be undrivable in the corners.

Fate
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#37 Rick

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:08 PM

ANYONE that says they would like a correctly-cleaned track with nothing down on it, has never tried to run a car on one. IT SUCKS! It's not fun...
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#38 MSwiss

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:44 PM

For the last two years we have used "stick it lightly" on tires. This week I am going to clean the track (for the first time in a year) and put down some spray glue in preparation for our race next Saturday. I got some thicker glue from Mike Swiss, but not exactly sure how to thin it (have a variety of chemicals) and what to use to spray it. Any advice would be welcome.

I thought I had given you the formula when I sold you the glue.

It's been a a while but if it was Koford Heavy or Camen Brown, add 16 oz. naphtha.

Mike Swiss
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
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#39 Zippity

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 02:55 PM

This is the spray bottle to use

Posted Image

#40 Rick

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 04:43 PM

Yup, that's the one to get, Zip. They last a good long time, the naphtha does not attack the o-rings in this spray unit, and it's cheap.

I would like to add that the spray glue formula I gave is a conservative mix, so you don't over-stick the track.

I used the heavier mix when we began a USRA style race as the motors are more powerful and can pull a heavier spray glue formula. It's much eaiser to give it another coat on the turns than it is to try to fix an overglued track.

And don't hold the spray bottle too close, allow it to fall onto the surface with a nice fine spray. You can see what you are doing if you look at the track at an angle as you go.

Just my 2 more cents...
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#41 Ken Bryan

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 07:52 PM

Mike-

I couldn't find the instructions you gave. After your message I went back and looked. It was back in August. You said 15 oz. to the bottle of glue.

Ken

#42 Rick

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 08:09 PM

If you get real ballsy, you can mix with lacquer thinner, too. Absolutely no residue but glue when it dries. ;)
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#43 SlowToyCars

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:27 PM

From a racer's perspective:

I've run in a lot of conditions, with a lot of different sprays, and on a LOT of tracks.

What doesn't work:
Coleman - About 10 years ago, Coleman changed their formulation for a while. It got REALLY oily, and was making tracks slick. Good to see it's 100% Naptha again, but that left a bad taste in my mouth.
No Glue - Worst possible conditions, though, honestly, it will help equalize your competition, as cars with power will have trouble hooking up. Expect complaints from people like me if your track is like this!
Red or Light glue mixtures - Almost as bad as nothing, this creates a slimy surface to the track. It is oily feeling, and will minimally aid in traction. Worse yet, it doesn't seem to allow the rubber to build up, which is where it really causes a problem. It doesn't get better with time.

What works:
VM&P naphtha - Always the same, can always be trusted to work.
Koford Medium/Heavy Glue - A very good choice for spraying a track.
Camen Stick-It Brown - Another very good choice for spraying a track.

Advanced lessons:
A track owner turned Regional USRA official, during my tenure as a Division 1 President for the region, was put in charge of track prep at every race for the season. The track owners were kind enough to allow us to prep the tracks. He was using a mixture containing Koford Drag glue. Honestly, guys, that's the best stuff I've ever seen for spray glue. It is SLOW to build rubber, lasts forever (a month or more, without having traction problems generally) and never seems to bog cars, never seems to lack traction. Makes for some great racing conditions. From what we could tell, most tracks were going .1-.2 faster with that prep than with anything they were using locally, based on the locals times.
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#44 Ken Bryan

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 12:25 AM

Good news to report.

I cleaned the track last night. Used VM&P Naphtha. To my surprise, I was able to clean the track in about 20 minutes. Track is 82' long, 4 lanes. I mixed naphtha and a small bottle of brown glue per directions given by Mike and Rick here. Misted the track once and corners twice. Waited until the naphtha evaporated and raced. Great racing conditions right off the bat.

Took a before and after picture as I was cleaning. You might notice a subtle difference:

DSC06661.JPG

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

Ken

#45 DocSlotCar

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:16 AM

Where did you purchase SKU 075577024544 Prod # K01661714-16 Manufact. VM&P Product: Naphtha.

Having an issue finding this locally.

Thank you,

Doc
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#46 Rick

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:18 AM

Lowes carries the Spraymaster spray unit and Ace Hardware carries VM&P naphtha...
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#47 Cheater

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:39 AM

Doc,

I'm pretty sure Home Depot carries VM&P naphtha, too, as should any decent paint store.

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#48 Cheater

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:40 AM

Doc,

I'm pretty sure Home Depot carries VM&P naphtha, too, as should any decent paint store.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#49 The Bugman

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:54 AM

And in Calif, it's about $9 a quart. Use sparingly... LOL!!
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#50 MSwiss

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:09 AM

I get my naphtha at Menard's because they sell it in gallons. It's up to $11-12 but that's still way better than paying $7-8 for a quart at Home Depot.

Not sure about Lowe's because none are real close to me.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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