23 replies to this topic

[marco]

Could use some help on this one. Ogilvie is building us a beautiful new 145' flat track for the 2009 Toronto Worlds.

Still don't have the power solution. Need it nice and clean and variable from 12-20v. Hardbody to Eurosport. What's the best?

[RomanK]

Mark, although there are some very good power supplies out there on the surplus market your requirement for 12-20 VDC (variable) moves you out of that market if you require substantial current (amps) and I suspect you do if this will be your primary power source.

Typically a 1/24th scale slot car track would run some nominal voltage between 12 - 14 VDC

Can you expand some on why you need 12-20 VDC variable?

[TSR]

I think that to resume, that's because the Plafit cars have to run very heavy and have somewhat weak motors lacking torque and requiring a lot of voltage to move at decent speed.

Also the same issue if one wants to run home-racing cars on such tracks like Scalextric, Carrera... that are also anemic at 12 volts. So their basic power supplies provide not much current but 16 to 18 volts.

[MG Brown]

18 Volts seems to be some sort of a de-facto standard for 1/24 "Model" racing cars internationally.

I can attest that Scalextric 1/32 cars run fine on 12 volts (USA standard).

I can't recall the manufacturer of the power supplies used by Gary Gerding for his tracks, but it is a well-known company in the rack mounted server world, the voltage is adjustable, and they can be gotten quite cheap in the secondary market such as eBay.

I can personally attest that this setup is quite capable of handling Eurosports and Plafit cars.

Gary, of course, could supply a turnkey power solution if you'd care to invest a phone call to discuss your needs.

[TSR]

I can attest that Scalextric 1/32 cars run fine on 12 volts (USA standard).

Mick, we had Scalextric sponsored races of Vipers three years ago at the BP convention. At 12 volts (with unlimited amps on top of that) the cars CRAWLED. We were able to rig a 15 volt power pack and they were still very slow. When I run Scalex cars on a small home racing track on a variable power supply at 12 volts, they aren't too swift either. The stock power supply has 16 volts and that's OK as long as the straights are not too long.

Truth is, the Mabuchi "S" can motors fitted in the Scalex and Carrera cars are simply anemic.

Anyway for answering the question, I would begin with a Pyramid PS26KX but it only goes to 15 volts.

[MG Brown]

Sir:

Not that I am trying to argue with you... but last year when Mr. Nori Ono visited Mid-America Raceway, he asked if 1/32 Homeset cars would run on the M/A flat track.

By happenstance I had in my box a Scalextric Jaguar Trans-Am that was bone stock other than Slot.it tyres on the rear and when put on the track seemed to run fine. A small strip of self-stick lead under the chassis made the car handle quite respectfully.

Also I have run Scalextric and Fly cars on Mike Swiss' flat track with good results. IIRC the Scalextric IRL Dallara seems to run particularly well on Mike's track. I believe Alan Smith uses basically stock Scalextric cars for his IROC races which have been held the last few years on the Chicagoland Raceway flat track.

Both tracks are nominally powered between 12 and 14 volts DC.

Granted, out-of-the-box Scalextric cars are not in the same ballpark as ISRA-USA 1/32 "Production" car lap times, but I feel they are a reasonable and fun driver challenge with like cars.

IIRC the stock Scalextric "wall wart" power supply is 16v AC which is rectified nominally to 12.5v DC (I think) at the power base. The voltage drop is one reason that it is not advised to hook a 12v DC aftermarket power supply directly to the Scalextric power base.

[munter]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Scalextric anaemic???

If you have a daily diet of D3, retro 1/24, wing cars, and eurosport then most 1/32 RTR slot cars will seem pretty lame.

Would you not agree?

This is not to say they are not fun and cannot be made to perform.

[TSR]

Scalextric cars are fun indeed, but they need voltage. It is not a question of speed contest or comparison with wing cars, D3, or other machinery, but anyone running them on a pro-racing track at 12 volts must be patient because they do take their time getting around.

[marco]

I think that to resume, that's because the Plafit cars have to run very heavy and have somewhat weak motors lacking torque and requiring a lot of voltage to move at decent speed.

Also the same issue if one wants to run home-racing cars on such tracks like Scalextric, Carrera... that are also anemic at 12 volts. So their basic power supplies provide not much current but 16 to 18 volts.

Why 20 volts? The Pana-A Plafit Championship, as per the DPM in Europe, is a specific race format that uses the Bison motor... pretty much the same motor you find in the Carrera 1/24 cars. The Carrera Exclusiv sets all come with 18v transformers to make these cars go.

In any event the Bison runs at 18v... usually 19v in competition... and is still a very popular motor in several of the major race series in Germany. The 2008 Pan-Am was probably the first time that these motors have been used in competition in North America. It was a great race and not one complaint about motors. But as we all know, there are not many raceways that can run 18-19v power... or need to.

So that's the background in a nutshell. the 2009 Pan-AmChampionship is the closing event to the 2009 Toronto Worlds this summer... and so I need 12-20v power for the track. Any help is MOST welcome. All the best.

[Slapshot]

Toronto Canada Original Proslot MTT (1989 Worlds)





Mark:

It is pretty difficult to get that range of voltage supplies in a variable and still have some amperage. The best supplies are server supplies. Usually 5v at lots of amps in series. They have some trim pots that can make them semi-variable but it is kind of set them then leave it. Not really meant as variable but meant as trim to get btween a cetain voltage range.
For the Plafits you can use a Pyramid supply at 40 amps that's varible to 15v. Just be aware anything above 13-4v will require you to have a separate supply to power your track relays.

The power supplies at Roger's track are Powertec/Astec server supplies. They are three in series at 200 amps. Then another bank is added in parrellel to give 400 amps. Eurosports require betwwen 12-3 volts at 250 amp minumum. The Speedshop MTT had 300 amp server supplies (three 100 amp banks) set at 12 volts.

Let me check my collection and see what I can come up with. Most are set range server supplies with trimmers.

Heres some example of server supplies

Powertec 4 volt + 4 volt + 4 volt= 12v@ 200 amp





Kepco 12 volt parralel @ 125 A + 125 A = 250 amp

[munter]

Scalextric cars are fun indeed, but they need voltage. It is not a question of speed contest or comparison with wing cars, D3 or other machinery, but anyone running them on a pro-racing track at 12 volts must be patient because they do take their time getting around.

I agree with that, Phillipe.

I have only been to the states once and that was back last century. What impressed me was the hardware. Planes trains and automobiles... you guys have it to spare and seeing those power supplies... WOW!

John

PS: Apologies for prattling on about another topic in this thread.

[MG Brown]

Thank you, Raymond, for jogging my memory regarding ASTEC/Emerson Network Power power supplies. Isn't the model MP6 popular for slot use?

Perhaps it's a cost consideration but I would think having Mr. Gerding provide the power supplies as part of the track construction would definitely be the path of least resistance (a little electrical joke there).

[Slapshot]

MG:

Yes, if Gary has many of them left it would benefit him. Not sure how many he has after a couple tracks. I recall how he came about them but I won't go into it. Remember these are used or pulled from equipment.

Servers usually change out their supplies after a certain amount of time or usage. Most are perfectly good for decades afterwards. I know the Speedshop supplies had been in use for over 15 years at a previous track in Seattle as well as three years at the Speedshop.

Power One supplies are available at reasonable prices new so they are the best value.

Astec MP6 or MP1 are the most available of all the server supplies. A smaller Asetc is in the background of the second picture above. If you can find them in multiples of three at a decent amperage of 50-100 amps. I like the higher power 1500-2000 watt supplies because they don't have that switching supply lag when cars desire amperage. Usually at the start of a heat or after a track call where everyones punched. Wattage beats out amperage...

FYI Powertec was bought out by Astec/Emmerson. so sometimes the names are transposed.

[Michael Rigsby]

Thank you Raymond for jogging my memory regarding ASTEC / Emerson Network Power power supplies. Isn't the model MP6 popular for slot use?

Perhaps it's a cost consideration but I would think having Mr. Gerding provide the power supplies as part of the track construction would definitely be the path of least resistance (a little electrical joke there).

Only thing is, MG, is Oglivie is building the track for them.? I don't think Oglivie uses anything but the standard Rivergate setups, but I could be wrong.

And those server power supplies are neat-looking to be sure.

Michael Rigsby

[Slapshot]

This info is just for the plafit cars needing a voltage 18-20 volts.....(these won't provide enough amperage for open Eurosports....)

For the plafits you probaly won't need more that 29-40 amps at the 18-20 volts.

Note: The following when I mention series connection. The first supply posative is buss jumper connected to negative of the next number two supply. Then number two supply posative is connected to negative of the third supply and so on. The first supply becomes the neg the last supply becomes the pos.

Do a search on ebay for "switching supply" there a several 125-300 watt in the 5v, 12v, 15v, 18v. 24 volt range with about 30-40 amps. You can narrow down your search for examply by entering "5v switching supply" If you find four 5 volt supplies you can trim them down to 4.5 volt and put them in series. That will give you the 18 volts. Four 5 volts in series would be 20 volts at about 40 amps. They are pretty reasonable priced and new. Most are about $30-50 each so four in series would be about $120-150. Try to find a seller in US or Canada as the China seller take a month to deliver.

A option for BRMs and plafit racing if you can trim the four supplies to 4.5 volts in series then have two taps one to the third supply to get 13.5 the other to the fourth supply to get 18 volts all at 30-40 amp rating of these supplies.

You could go 4 supplies rated 5 volt in series trimmed to 4.5 volts. Or 2 supplies 12 volts supplies in series trimmed down as low as they will go which will be near 2X11 volts to get 22 volts in series. Theres also a 15 volts supply that you would probaly squeek out trimmed high at 16 volts at 40 amps. Theres a 18 and 24 volt supply but lowest you will get is 22.5volts but you will only need one.

Here a sample from Electronics Goldmine 5 volts at 40 amps switching supply made by Victor again these would be 4 in series to make 20 volts:

http://www.goldmine-...p?number=G16217


Heres the data sheet. http://www.vicorpowe.../ds_flatpac.pdf


Or if you know someone with some electronics knowledge try All Electronics they have a few left of 5v 25amp supplies: http://www.allelectr...-INPUT/-/1.html

They also have a small server suppy at 5v 25 amps but you need to know the connection for the "switch on jumper" which is ground to one of the loom wires. Most times it is green (sometimes purple) to black. The web site mentions green to goround but I will have to check my diagrams.
http://www.allelectr...R-SUPPLY/1.html


Again you will need a small 12v supply to power your relays on your track power as the 18-20 is too high for 12 volt relays.

Raymond

[RomanK]

Hi Mark,

OK, so to be sure I understand, you actually need a power supply for 18-20 VDC and a power supply for a more conventional 12 VDC or so?

How much current (amps) for the different voltages?

MG has a variable power supply (MGPS10AD) 0-20 VDC but it's output is only 10 amps, is that sufficient for your higher voltage cars?

Another thought, why not two different power supplies, one set for 12 VDC and another set for the higher voltage. They could be configured with Anderson type quick connects and changed out quite quickly and easily.

As Ray mentioned, most of the power supplies we are working with today have some adjustability but I doubt would span 12 - 20 VDc and are a bit cumbersome to adjust if it needs to be done in a hurry.

I will also look to see what I have tucked away and will check to see the range of any units that I may have.

An unrelated yet important thought here also is what race director system will you be using and how will it accept 20 VDC or are you planning to power the RD system from an ouside power source?

[Slapshot]

Roman:

The plafit don't take alot of amperage. They are at par to a Falcon motor draw. Especailly at 18 volts. MG supply at 10 amps is a bit too low. They would probaly be at home somewhere between 25-40 amps.

I know Allen uses a 13v @ 40 amp Rivegate/Ioata supply for his BRM races. I think the Plafits would fit in that same amperage range also.

I agree that seperate voltage supplies is probably the best solution.

Raymond

[TSR]

Knowing the losses of current through wires, connections and track rails, you better have a LOT more than 10A from the power supply if you don't want to see those very heavy models to crawl...

[marco]

Roman:

The plafit don't take alot of amperage. They are at par to a Falcon motor draw. Especailly at 18 volts. MG supply at 10 amps is a bit too low. They would probaly be at home somewhere between 25-40 amps.

I know Allen uses a 13v @ 40 amp Rivegate/Ioata supply for his BRM races. I think the Plafits would fit in that same amperage range also.

I agree that seperate voltage supplies is probably the best solution.

Raymond

Looks like we are getting there and the separate power supplies may keep it simple. In truth, we only need the 18-19v for the Bison motors once a year at most for the PANAM event. I see TRACKMATE has a 0-30v adjustable supply at 40 amps -- any concerns for the 18v requirement? Also for the Race Direction system -- we have purchased the SPYTECH package.

[Slapshot]

Mark;

Looks like you solved your own answer for at least the Plafit motor side....open motor Eurosports will take something beefier amp wise .

The Trackmate supply is the Mastech supply, Mastech has one more version at 50 amps.



Never tried one but the specs look close to your needs and Daniels a Left coast Canadian too....EH!

You should be able to get that supply before the race if he sends if Canadian hurry up mail....

The Spytech Race manager is a super race director program, Andy knows the software side of the setup so you shouldn't have any problems with it.
It has a simple connections to the track power relay, with many options. http://www.onecode.c...ch-race-manager

Be sure to get yourself a small 12v 5-10 amp supply for activating just the track relays. The power for the track (say the 20volts) goes though the relay normal high amp output pins for track power. The power for the relay on off activativating power goes to small 12-14volts supply and then computor (output black box) on the Spytech. The 12v is so that you don't fry your relays (and the trigger amp/switching transistor in the black box) as they most likely will be 12v rated automotive 40a or 75a bosh lighting relays. If your using the Hasse Proslot MTT it might have some beefer relays but most likely thier rated at 12v.

Raymond

[68Caddy]

Raymond
I sure love that hi-tech power supply, you won't see it here.
Maybe I should move to Canada.

Nesta

[Slapshot]

Actually a version of the beefier supplies is at Buena Park. They are probaly hidden under the track.....
I let Swoford in on to where to aquire the last of supplies for the King. Only diff is he added batteries the track has close to 300-600 amps reserve power on the supplie alone not including the added battery amps.

Raymond

[GBech]

Have a Scalextric 4 lane setup, I tested the voltage to try and understand what voltage I would need to set my new PS26KX II when I go to wire it directly.
4 - Scaley wall warts, 1 per lane.
3 adapters put out 15.89V, the fourth 15.92V
Power base 1- Lanes 1&2
Voltage at track for both lanes 13.89V

Power base 2- Lanes 3&4
Voltage at track for both lanes 14.21

So for fun, I bought a couple of Adapter plug tips (type N) from Radio shack and wired to the PS26MK- turned all the way up to max voltage (15.8V)
Powerbase 1- 13.89V
Powerbase 2- 14.12V

Plugged the wall warts back in and powerbase 2 started to make that fabulous burning electronics smell...so can only use one of the power connectors, so I plugged the PS26MK back in. Funniest part- voltage for that powerbase is now 13.90V


So at the sport power base a 2V drop off-

[Rick]

I clamped a heavily glued King track, one day, and running Group 7 Wing cars, the track pulled 120 amps RMS, on heavy load, less usually, and spikes up to 160(seldom) until someone dropped an aluminum choke across the connections and then it pulled 200+ amps. The wire harness was more than ample to handle any load the track needed. So use the figures as you see fit.........