39 replies to this topic

[woody950]

Hello Dennis (Foamy) Hill, Philippe de Lespinay, and anyone else with Champion motor knowledge...

I got some information from a man in England and he gave me some information about Champion armatures but it was not complete and quite vague. Here is what he said:

Small details about the early 517s. Remember the semi-clear insulators at the ends of the arms? In
ones that were factory made, they were color-coded to a specific wire size. I still have mine from 1967 and its insulators were red for 26 wire. I recall green ones for another size, maybe 27? What were the other two colors and what wire sizes did they
represent? If memory serves me correctly, the 517s were available in 29-26 gauge, with the #29 being discontinued after a short while because everyone was going to the larger sizes. Also, do you remember the number of turns of each wire
size that were put on them?

If anyone knows this information I would ask you to send it to me at woody950@aol.com.

I have quite a few of Champion's armatures but not a clue as to what they are.

Thank you for your help.

[TSR]

Loman,

In the hundreds of 517 MIB and loose, as well as the dozens of 517 MIB and loose arms, I have seen over the last 40 years, I have NEVER seen a single one with colored insulators.

Pictures please?

As far as windings, I think that they were listed on later catalogs (1970 onwards).

[TSR]

The gentleman sent me a picture of his motor and indeed it has red insulators. So I am puzzled but what can I say, I have never see others. Could it be that the UK got arms with colored markings to figure which wire size they had on hand???

[dc-65x]

Hi Philippe,

I just got this off ePay:



I think I have others I'll have to check. I know I have some colored Champion insulators on unwound armatures... red, I think.

[Bill from NH]

Since Bob Rule is now a member on here, wouldn't he be the one to ask? A PM to him ought to get a quick answer.

[Champion 507]

Snagged this pic from a recently-closed eBay listing:



Top arm?

Middle arm: Champion 517 with clear insulators

Bottom arm: Champion 517 with RED insulators

The full page Champion ad that appears inside the front cover of the March, 1968, issue of Car Model magazine (same issue that Steve Okeefe appears in) even states "all new for 1968, color-coded armature insulators". RED ones I know for a fact meant #26 wire; I have owned one since it was new. I seem to remember green, purple, and blue colored insulators, possibly depicting #27, #28, and #29 wire sizes (respectively) they used on other 517s. PdL says Champion phased out the #29 wire motor after a short time. Makes sense to me.

Has anyone ever seen or does anyone know for sure what the other colored insulators were and what wire sizes they stood for? This is the info I'm looking for.

As I have mentioned before, I raced about 200 miles from Chamblee back in the day and we got stuff from Champion pretty quickly, so it was pretty fresh. I'm wondering if the color coding was only done for short time. Since we were so close, maybe we got some of the early color-coded motors, but because tracks that were farther away maybe didn't get any because the color coding had been phased out by then??? I have no clue. That's pure speculation on my part.

Any and all help will be appreciated.

[TSR]

Rick,

Indeed it is a Champion with red insulators. I thought that they all had the translucent nylon insulators because I had never seen one with the red stuff but I was wrong. Doug showed me his armatures and as skeptical and stubborn as I am, it took me more than one hour to figure out that I no longer held the Absolute Truth!

I assume that they were made just before they switched to the .007" laminations and did away with the nylon insulators. Incredibly, with the huge piles of Champion stuff at the LASCM, I cannot remember seeing even ONE with the red stuff...

Eventually, one will show up.

Doug, the top arm could be a Dyna-Rewind from its balancing style, but I think it is just an amateur job with a Tradeship comm.

[Champion 507]

FYI:

[Tex]

Methinks Dokk needs to acquire such a Champion arm with the red insulators for the LASCM! Hold his toes to the fire, boys; can anyone say "free around the world cruise"?! LOL!

Just yankin' yer chain, P.

[TSR]

Richard,

It is not like it is the most important thing on our plate right now...

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

I am having a blast with this one!

I didn't buy a factory arm for racing until Bob Green started selling "Vulcan" arms. But have since aquired a few and have no memories about them!

Thanks.

Fate

[Champion 507]

Guys,

I think I have a 517 with blue insulators. I had originally told PdL months ago that they were clear but after shining a small bright flashlight into the motor and rotating the arm for fifteen minutes, it does indeed appear that they are blue.

This motor is used but totally unmolested. The 517 sticker partially covers up one of the endbell retaining screws and I don't want to disturb that, so I'm not taking it apart.

PdL, in your defense, it was almost impossible to see the insulators very well with the motor out of the packaging. I really don't see how you could determine if the insulators are colored with it still in its wrapper.

I'm still trying to get pics of this but with the angle of difficulty this is presenting, I "ain't" there yet. Stay tuned...

[Tex]

It is not like it is the most important thing on our plate right now...

Same here. I'm trying to get a class going where scratchbuilts and Flexis can co-exist on the same track at the same time.

[Phil Irvin]

Back when we had to do our rewinds, I was already tired of stripping burnt arms when Champion came out with their rewind kits. You could get them from 26 to 29 guage wire. All that I bought were 26s and they did come with red insulaters.

As for seeing a factory wind... I don't remember what color they were. I do not have any in my old boxes left..

Phil I.

[TSR]

Anyone have any other colors, like green or blue?

[Champion 507]

I got a blue one, I got a blue one!!!

After spending much time on this today, I was finally able to get a clear picture of the blue insulator.

[Champion 507]

OK, here's what we know:

1) The insulators came in red and blue.
2) Red was #26 wire size.
3) 517s were available in four wire sizes... 26, 27, 28, and 29.

Here's what we don't know... yet:

1) What were the other two insulator colors? Were they green, purple, yellow, or what?
2) What colors represented #27, #28, and #29?

Guesses, theories, BS, etc.:

1) I can't prove it yet, but I always remembered the green as representing #27. I distinctly remember seeing one back in the day, but only once.
2) I always thought blue stood for #29. PdL says the #29s were discontinued quicker than the others. Was this due to slower performance? Probably, yes. Back in the day the push was for fewer turns of bigger and bigger wire. I'm guessing that the reason my blue insulator 517 is in such good, unmolested condition is that it, indeed, could be a #29 wire motor and the original owner replaced it with something that performed better. This motor has never been apart as evidenced by the fact that the motor label partially covers up one of the endbell retaining screws and there is absolutely no disturbance of that label at all around that screw. Both original shunted brushes are present as well as the original lead wires.

[TSR]

That's a pretty good analysis. Let see if we can find some more.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

If memory serves, wasn't the original stock B wind a 29?

In '69 with the first national organizatin, the NCC, the group established a few "classes" lower than open (Group 7).

Group 12 arms were unbalenced and commonly 65t/30s. The wisdom being that with a stock motor (the purpose of 12) a 30s was not only the wind on stock 26Ds, the 6001 Champion, and the "new generation" Mabuchi 16D, it was thought that the racers who tried to build a hotter wind would fail.

Group 15 was as today, a tagged, balanced 29.

Group 20 was, as today, a tagged balanced 27.

I suspect that there was no reason for color coding (expense) for either wind at that point.

A popular class in the day (was it called formula III?) required a Group 20 as an inline F1. And with better anglewinders, pretty much any F1 racing I saw (and Indy) was just a 27.

Fate

[Champion 507]

Rocky,

Wasn't the only difference between a 20 and a 27 was that the 20 was machine wound and the 27 was hand wound? The 20 had to run in bushings, where the 27 could run in ball bearings. Both arms were 38 turns of #27, tagged, epoxied, and balanced. Is that correct or am I wrong somewhere?

I was out of slots when those came along and never raced in either class.

[slotcarone]

Doug,

I believe you are correct about the GP 20 and 27 winds but I know in the early '90s we raced Group 20 wing cars every week and ball bearings were allowed in the motors and chassis as well.

[Champion 507]

Thanks, Mike.

I guess I should have been more specific in my earlier post. I was basically referring to the early '70s, as the rules were fairly new at that time. I know rules change as time goes on.

Nowadays, the manufacturers have computers wound arms and they look as good as hand wounds. Heck, they look better than the ones I wind! Mine aren't sloppy but they look more like older machine winds.

John Havlicek is the master. All my blank armatures hate me. They want to go to John. They want someone who knows what he's doing to wind them.

[TSR]

Rocky,

The color-coded Champion arms were apparently manufactured well before the Mura B and Group 20 spec were born. We are talking 1968 here.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

that was my point, P, poorly put as you didn't get it. In early '68 the coding made sense. While the NCC rules weren't in general effect until '69, in fact, the meetings (I was a representative for my area) were in 68, the voting and all. The rules were actually settled by the end of summer. Thus, as Rule and others were part of this, it would have made it obvious. I say that because various manufacturers started tagging packages with "NCC LEGAL" or some such in 68 in anticipation.

Dynamic started labeling their kits and RTRs before their anglewinders were in production.

Group 27.
Actually, this is a case of the rules being vague about things. Initially, we had Gp12, Gp 20 and G.7

And there were a lot of "twixt and tween" stuff on the market.

The Group 20 rules specified a Mura made Tagged Group 20 motor in a Champion made Group 20 chassis. The motor was very good, the chassis was crap. Now, group 15 allowed a scratchbuilt chassis or commercial chassis with a group 15(tagged) motor. The Group 20 champion chassis was a flexi flyer, bent a lot and so on. On short tracks, not everyone had a king or 220 engleman in the day, a lot of Group 7 races were won by simply taking an excellent G.15 chassis like the Limpach 888 or the Parma Wire(later Group 18) with a 20 in it. In most areas, this became called "Group 27". As in a group 20 motor in a brass and wire chassis. These chassis were allowed multi hinges like the 20 chassis, the 15s had one, and most people were just taking the 888 and similar and adding a hinge.

So, initially 27 was a G.7 with a 20. THEN, people inside mura started doing better 20s by hand winding the arm. And offering them to select racers for "team" or promotional purposes. And when the "parking lot motor" complaints took place, Mura started offering these hand wound motors for sale.

As with everything else in theis period, things were moving so very fast, I don't know which parts were in the magazines! Anyway, all this happened in the space of about a year, fall 68 through fall of 69.

Other manufactureres complained, and other "group 20" chassis were approved, and all of them were crap. But others started winding legal Group 20 and 27 motors and THOSE persisted all through the 70s.

So, long and windy, and I know I bore some. But initially 27s were 20s in wire chassis versus 20s in spec chassis. Then as the 70s developed and building chassis became less and less allowed, the meaning changed to "better 20 motors" without the chassis part.

Fate

[TSR]

OK, so I coughed up the whole bid of 20 bucks and bought the three arms on E-Pay and they arrived today.
The picture does not give them justice, they are in excellent shape, all three of them.




The two Champion arms are indeed 517, both with the dark red insulators, and very little comm wear. A quick comm re-cut is all what they need to be perfect. They are showing standard resistance and are not shorted, and the solder joints at the comms are not melted.
The third one is a Dyna-Rewind, using a Tradeship comm, so it is not an "Enduro" model. It is also in excellent condition.
So I guess now the LASCM has some of those 'red" arms, but maybe it already has some and I had never noticed!

Now I am going to have a look at ALL those darned things.