61 replies to this topic

[dc-65x]

I was looking through My Model Racing Journals when I came upon this July 1970 issue:



So I start reading the Steube and Cukras story...



... I get to the last page...



... then...



BAM!



Billy Steube built a cool car . What did he use for a motor? Oh, they cut down a Mura 16D to the height of Arco Blue Dot magnets. A "pre C-can" low profile motor. Man, that's a lot of work. What's that Associated ad on the same page?



DOUBLE BAM!

"New low and super narrow Mini Max cans and endbells" for Arco Blue Dot magnets. I have a few two-piece and the later spot-welded version:



New project time.

[endbelldrive]

Neato! .055, .047 main rails...3 13/16" wheelbase...7/8" guide lead...24s arms...cut down 16Ds which meant you didn't have to snake the half rails around and through endbell hardware...36D brushes...I remember it like it was yesterday.

[The Bugman]

well you shoulda been there yesterday at BPR,,,you coulda seen it again LIVE as the A Main that those 2 battling it out, 40+ yrs later,and it was even better the second time around,,,,
i guess out here at BPR,we are very fortunate to have great racers such as those 2 and many more to watch and participate with every month,plus many more of the PAST GREATS,, Tore, Warmack,Hines,Bob Stork Crane,Zimmerman,Mr Tanaka,,and a host of others.,and besides being still great drivers / racers,these are GREAT GUYS to hang out with too

[dc-65x]

Cool stuff Bob, I'm like'n it too

Sounds like a great time Oscar. I hope I can make it down for the fun. I'd love to watch the greats battle

Here's the end bell kit with some extra goodies like the machine screws, comm cooler and buss bars:



For some reason Associated spaced their brush hoods way father apart than the contemporary Mura B-motor . I decided to use some thick copper B-motor super proofer brush plates and modify them. I elongated the original holes to fit the Associated end bell and better support the brushes:



The brush hoods were notched out to move them in closer as well and soldered to the brush plates. Here a before and after:



I used a period MRJ B-motor "hop up" article to further modify the motor. The end bell got notched for half rail clearance and holes for comm inspection:





The can was soldered together and cut for axle clearance and narrowed at the bearing support. I also soldered that little brass plate included with the Associated kit onto the end bell to help hold the thing together. I'm not sure if that's what it's for but it seemed like a good idea at the time .



The Blue Dot magnets needed some .010" shims to center them in the can and .004" shims to tighten up the air gap:



They slide nicely into the can and I installed the magnet springs and………..the can split apart at the solder joint . I guess that's why Associated later offered the spot welded can . I took the thing apart and applied a big honk'n mound of solder to the joints. I gooped up the top, bottom and back side of the magnets with JB Weld metal filled epoxy and installed them. When the epoxy cured I filed off the excess solder and now the epoxied in magnets are reinforcing the can.

Here is the finished motor all painted up in a textured green finish in honor of the great Steube motors:



Neato old school buss bars, shunt wires and comm cooler:



Yummy, blue dots and ball bearings:



Next up a Billy Steube inspired chassis.

Onward

[Horsepower]

Just once I'd like to be able to run a few laps with that motor. Heck, I'd just like to SEE it in the flesh! This just feeds into my motor jones, by the way.

[Steve Deiters]

This is one great blog entry. Thanks for sharing this build-up. Can't tell if I'm in a time machine looking at the past or looking to the future. I always wondered if anyone built those Associated cans and end bells up. I don't think very many of them were sold. Now I know at least one was! Thanks for sharing this.

[TSR]

Bill Steube Sr. was still using the cut-down D-size cans when I began racing for Team Checkpoint. He actually made smaller cans than the Green "C-can", using thinner magnets. Those were made from cut-down C cans and smaller diameter armatures. We experimented with them for a while and they of course made the cars handle better, but were too complex and expensive to build, so Bill reverted to the standard C can and stuck with it to the end.
The cut-down D-size cans as well the smaller motors he built were silver soldered, them machined inside and out. They were simply gorgeous. I am not sure if any examples have survived besides the one we got from the Bruce Paschal kind donation a few years ago.
Of course Bob Green was first to use a cut-down D-size can for his famous "Green" motors built in 1970.
Bill also was first to use brass strip buss bars, beautifully fashioned to provide the best current transmission from lead wires.

As far as the "Mini Max", indeed not many were sold and even fewer used by the pros. The closest thing to it was the Certus can that looks suspiciously like from the same tooling.

[dc-65x]

...........Can't tell if I'm in a time machine looking at the past or looking to the future.............

Thank you Steve . When I saw that picture of Billy's car with the cut down motor and the ad for the Mini Max can a switch flipped in my head . I was back in time to 1970 looking at that issue of MRJ and decided to build my own car with the new Associated setup.

Rather than cloning this is my favorite kind of scratch building. In my head I'm the person I am today, not the 20 year old I was in 1970, but I'm back in the period building my own version of that race winner for my local raceway. What... WHO'S CRAZY Well we've all got to be a little crazy to build vintage slot cars .

Anyway, thanks Philippe for the insider’s info on the great motors of Bill Steube Sr.

Time to build a chassis . I bought this old pile off of Ebay for the Steube drop arm and pans:





It took about a foot of "solder blob sucker upper" braid to get to this point:



Then I realized the drop arm was a different version with the holes shifted well forward and the pans were cut way to short . Time to make my own Steube style pans and drop arm. Mr. 3/4" end mill can work wonders:



I believe I should have started with an Associated drop arm but we do the best we can with what we have. I think this looks the part:



My 1959 Clausing mill takes car of modifying some Parma pans too:



I have one pair of original Steube pans that I'm keeping for reference. They are WAY long for a 3 13/16" wheelbase chassis. Here are my modified Parma's next to the originals:



Time to heat up the Ungar..............

[Dooner]

Beautiful motor Rick.
I like the green paint. It kinda looks like the Mura crinkle can they used to keep the motors cool.

[Steve Deiters]

I think by the time these Associated cans came out in 1970 Certus was pretty much gone from the scene after the "B" motors came and went of which they had their own private label version. I have seen the Certus cans with the oval style holes, but always assumed they were Mura cans with the two hole design where the webbing had been milled or cut out to produce a "unique" hole pattern. The tell tale detail for the can that may have Certus origins in the museum would be the Associated cans, as I remember, had very whimpy (small O.D.) can bearings (the build up on the blog shows a ball bearing) and did use a bearing plate while the Certus used the standard Mura can oilites either the long or short style which ever was prevailing at the time with no bearing plate.
I can see where a lot of the retro guys today we hear from on the blog with good memories, lots of imagination, and a great workshop could have a blast with a couple dozen of these old Associated set ups. The sky would be the limit. What fun!

[dc-65x]

.......Bill also was first to use brass strip buss bars, beautifully fashioned to provide the best current transmission from lead wires......

Here is what Philippe is talking about. An original Steube motor, Photo courtesy of Philippe de Lespinay:



Very nice

Beautiful motor Rick.
I like the green paint. It kind of looks like the Mura crinkle can they used to keep the motors cool.

Thanks Tom. I like the way the paint on the can turned out too. I tried to find Krylon Wrinkle Finish paint but the green has been discontinued. I ended up using Rust-Oleum Textured Finish paint.

Back to the chassis. Here the hardest part for me is done. The axle tube-spur gear unit is centered in the jig. The jig motor is temporarily attached to the axle tube at the shallowest angle possible. Spacers were used in front of the motor to locate the cross brace.



I like to monkey around with everything until I get the bends for the end bell side main and half rails exactly lined up with the cross brace. I also get both outside rails ending in the same place on that pencil line. The plumber rails and pans will also be lined up on that line:



The main rails are left long and the center section is ready for the front axle:



Speaking of long, if you eyeball your uprights to look straight when they are this long they will look dead nuts when you cut them off:



That extra length on the main rails is where I drag the soldering iron tip to finish the joint. It pulls any extra solder to the end of the rails where it will be cut off.

Here's the center section spiffed up a bit:



The front axle with forward facing rear upright:





I've notched the half rail so I can get the lower screw into the low profile motor:



The end bell side axle brace:



A bottom view:



Time for a drop arm...............

[TSR]

There are only two masters in this, a true art. One is Rick and the other is Steve Okeefe. All of us the others, we are but mere amateurs.
Then, there are the body painters...

[Noose]

Hey..not to divert from this great thread..but did anyone see the ad for the $19.95 Gorski Chassis? lready told John.

Build on Rick. Looks awesome already!

[TSR]

The real question is, who is Robert Gupkin?

[Tex]

Rick,

At the risk of straying off-topic, I'd sure like to see the rest of the report of Sullivan winning the Mini Arco in Dallas. I wonder if I was there? I didn't pay a lot of attention back then.

[dc-65x]

Sure Tex. I'll try to do it tonight. How you feeling???

Rick

[dc-65x]

Here you go Tex and Brian:

[dc-65x]

what are you holding down the drop arm and pans with when milling? Is it just double faced tape??

BINGO! GTPJoe wins the prize . I've been waiting of someone to comment on my setup. Steve Okeefe caught it right away when I emailed him pictures of this project.

So, I started with the pans:



I milled down .030" deep in a block of aluminum all except for a little ledge on the far side. This ledge located and aligned the part with the machine. I got lazy and decided not to drill and tap for a coupe of "toe clamps" to ensure a solid setup. The super strong double sided tape is all that held the pans down. KIDS, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! But this worked great on the pans as I "nibbled" away with the end mill and never engaged the entire cutter diameter with the part.

The drop arm was another story. There was LOTS of tool pressure engaging the full diameter of the cutter into the drop arm. I drilled pilot holes and used progressively larger end mills to get the job done. I will drill and tap for a couple of "toe clamps" next time or I'll just order some Steube pans and a drop arm..........Oh, if I only could

[Jairus]

I do that too... thought everyone saw it. Got to be careful pulling the part up as you can bend it...
Nice project Rick, love the motor...

[dc-65x]

Thanks Jairus....You live on the edge too . Holding the block of aluminum with the part under hot water really helps "unlock" it.

[GTPJoe]

Hi Rick!

Sure I'm old but the "eyes" still have it!

Anyways above you said you like to "monkey around with everything until I get the bends for the end bell side main and half rails exactly lined up with the cross brace." Yet to my eyes those rails appear straight. Are you refering to the 90 bend that joins to the axle tube?

On the few anglewinders I've built I've copied that same endbell side rail being straight technique. I know it was not correct for the style I was building but it made it much easier to do.

Thanks!

[dc-65x]

Hi Joe,

Sorry, I should have said gear side not end bell side . I like the straight rails on the end bell side too.

Rick

[dc-65x]

Here are the pieces for the drop arm. Two 1/2" long 3/32" tubes an extra long piece of 1/16" piano wire which will be trimmed later and a piece of .047" piano wire. This is straight out of Lee Gilbert's Car Model Magazine Pro Car build "how-to" article (my personal Bible for building an angle winder chassis):



Everything is soldered up here:



After I put the buff to it:





The drop arm needs an upward stop. A 1/32" piano wire cross piece does the trick.



Well, it does until 1972 or so when Phillipe introduced what we call the "rock 'n roll" front end. An L-shaped piece of wire attached to the center of the front axle tube. It allows more flex and helps keep the guide planted.



Anyway, the drop arm is thinner than the 1/16" axle uprights the upward stop is sitting on. So a slot was Dremeled for the upward stop to fit in and sit down flush with the drop arm:



Here are the drop arm 3/32" pivot tubes, L-shaped 1/16" piano wire uprights and 1/32" piano wire plumber rail upward stop:



I forgot to take a picture as I made this. I do it differently than Lee did in his article. I find it easier to solder on a single long piece of 3/32" tube and then cut the center out rather than try to solder 3 separate tubes. Do whatever works for you:



I have the upright in front of the hinge on this build. Most often it's behind the hinge I've seen it both ways and I needed the room behind the hinge on this build. Billy had his 1/4" brass strip cross brace on his center section well in front of the motor. He had to trim his and I didn't want to do that to mine. Anyway, here's a bottom view:



The finished center section with drop arm waiting for the "plumber" to show up:



Onward.......

[GTPJoe]

Rick,

(More Dumb Questions)

Sir, did you use the same one long piece technique as the drop arm pivot tube for the 1/32" piano wire plumber rail upward stop? I find it hard to get those short pieces straight or at a perfect 90 when they are so tiny...

When you do the front facing axle tube supports do you do the front one first and then fit the rear one to it?

Is the inside main rail the .055?

Could you repost the Lee Gilbert's Car Model Magazine Pro Car build "how-to" article (my personal Bible for building an angle winder chassis): also if you have it, Dona's phone number??

Thanks again!!

[GTPJoe]

Rick

I think I found the build article under "History", posted in PDF format by MG Brown.

Thanks guys!!