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Out of respect - early Indy Cars


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#1 Marty Stanley

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 03:04 PM

Well, out of respect for the fine car of PdL that appears in the Eagle Flying Soon thread, I have started this thread as there appears to be so much interest in early Indy 500 cars here.

When you look at some of the photos posted on the Harvey Aluminum Special like this:

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Then you realize that Parnelli Jones qualified a roadster at 150 mph plus on tires just like those above.

Sure was different back then, no downforce, just drivers going as fast as they can. No computer engine management either. Just taking it all out and not leaving anything on the table.

Heck, 1962 was a very interesting year. Even the pace car that year was a very special one. Most folks would never think of what it was. All I will say is that it is no longer being built!
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#2 BackAgain

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 03:10 PM

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I think this was it...
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#3 Cheater

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 03:13 PM

Correct!

The pace car in 1962 was supposed to be a Studebaker Avanti, but they couldn't get it in production in time, so they substituted a 1962 Studebaker Lark Daytona. The driver was Sam Hanks, who won Indy in 1957.

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#4 Marty Stanley

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 03:25 PM

Cheater,

1957? Wow, A.J. Foyt had not even raced at Indy that early!

That's going way back!

I have to tell you, I'm enjoying this!
Marty Stanley
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#5 TSR

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 03:57 PM

Well, Marty, this is a subject dear to my heart as I am an absolute fanatic about the earlier days of the Indy 500.

Besides the two Eagles we have restored (one for me, the other for Dan Gurney), I also picked this little nugget in the form of thrash-ready remains, brought to life at great expense, research and respect for the old bits. In this case, repairing took over replacing in 99% of the cases, including that of... bolts and nuts.

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From this intense mess, this is what came out:

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I am sure that you know what this car is, was, right?

cat_t54_indy_61.jpg

Philippe de Lespinay


#6 Bob Campbell

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 04:25 PM

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Hey Dokk,

I'm guessing this is at Goodwood? Almost went last year with a hillclimb car. Sponsor/driver backed out of the deal after plans were already made. Oh well. :angry:

Bob Campbell
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#7 BackAgain

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:21 PM

That car is very similar to Brabham's BT26A:

back1.jpg
Paul Tisdale
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#8 slotbaker

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:35 PM

Cool thread... Early Indy cars... Studebaker and Brabham.

More please..

:)

Steve King


#9 MG Brown

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 06:31 PM

Certainly one of the more entertaining Indy cars of the 1960s...

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yunick.jpg
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#10 TSR

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 06:58 PM

Actually it was not as bad as it looked and could have been made to work... :)

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#11 Marty Stanley

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:18 PM

Indy roadsters...

We need pictures of those fabulous Indy roadsters...

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Let's see more of this part of our motorsport racing... innovation, creativity, excellence... it was a time of true racing!
Marty Stanley
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#12 BackAgain

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:40 PM

Hey Marty,

I know this thread is about Indy cars, but I have a couple of pics of some early open-wheelers, a couple of old MGs, and some sports cars if you would like me to post them.. .didn't want to hijack your thread...
Paul Tisdale
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#13 Marty Stanley

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 08:08 PM

Post away Mon Friere!

We'll make it a post on older 1:1 cars!

I'm open for it.
Marty Stanley
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#14 chaparrAL

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 08:20 PM

Smokey Yunick first appeared at the speedway in 1958 with the Black and gold #81 roadster with my childhood hero Paul Goldsmith at the wheel. They had just won the last stock car beach race at Daytona a few months earlier. They were taken out in the first lap accident that took the life of Pat O Conner. Paul Goldsmith now owns and runs the airport in Griffith IN.
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#15 BackAgain

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 08:47 PM

Good deal Marty, I will fire-up the scanner when I hit the office tomorrow.....
Some will and some won't recognise some of the names, but the cars are cool....many of them are from my boyhood trips to the tracks in and around Sydney
Paul Tisdale
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#16 MG Brown

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 09:51 PM

Here's a double purpose pic- beautiful roadster Sporting Halibrand kidney bean wheels.

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1956 Indy "500" winner with George Francis 'Pat' Flaherty, Jr. at the keyboard.

In the Spring of 1956, Flaherty did not have a ride for the 1956 Indianapolis 500. Legend has it that while tending bar at the tavern he owned on Chicago's north side, Flaherty overheard from two racing insiders, that car owner John Zink did not have a driver yet for his race car. Flaherty quickly called him and the two agreed over the phone to a one race deal.

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I believe that Richard "Jim" Rathmann drove this nice roadster- can anyone confirm it?

Jim and his older brother James (now known as Dick Rathmann) switched names so that he could enter a race while underage. This was only supposed to be for a short time, however, he adopted the name "Jim" and his brother adopted the name "Dick" and because of this he has been known as Jim ever since.

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Here's a roadster that most racing fans recognize- 'Ol Calhoun piloted by one Rufus Parnell Jones to a controversial victory at the 1963 Indy "500".

Jones was nicknamed Parnelli by his boyhood friend Billy Calder, who hoped that the Jones family would not discover their son was racing cars as a 17 year old minor at Gardenia (CA) Speedway.

Question: what's an interesting commonality about the photos of the bottom two roadsters?
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#17 Tex

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 10:10 PM

They're both purple?
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#18 MG Brown

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 10:15 PM

I should have said what is out of place / not correct on the two cars but takes a little bit of looking to notice.

(Purple?)
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#19 chaparrAL

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 10:35 PM

LOOK AT THOSE TIRES!!! Those are DOT street tires.
Al Thurman
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#20 TSR

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 10:49 PM

Gentlemen,

So that you know, every front-engine car pictured above (including the 1962 "Indy 500 winning car" as shown on the sign) except for the gold and black # 31 Kurtis 500 belonging to Chuck McConnell and the blue # 2 Watson is a replica of the original. Both AJ Watson and others have been manufacturing these replicars for enthusiasts to play with. The reason: most original cars got modified into sprint cars and seriously altered once they were no longer competitive on the big ovals, tthen went into decay and eventually, the bin.

The blue car belongs to Larry Pfitzenmaier and suffered a similar fate but there was enough left of the original bits to being it back to life.

That replicas are being built is not all bad as this is in many ways the only way that such cars can be shown being driven a speed on front of spectators, such as the wonderful Milwaukee event.

The Cooper I restored was also a sprint car with a Chevy V8 and huge wings when found, the bits having been used to build it, but the owner kept the discarded parts, and that saved the day.

No rear-engine cars have been invited to the Milwaukee event so far.

Philippe de Lespinay


#21 idare2bdul

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 12:27 AM

The tires aren't the only thing skinny on the roadsters, check out the roll bars.
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#22 MG Brown

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 12:36 AM

It is true that vintage racing car collecting and "racing" is a fairly recent way for enthusiasts to convert their greenbacks into rolling artwork.

In the late 1950's and 1960's, racing cars were only of value when they were winning, and then they were sold (usually for scrap value) and sometimes cobbled by lesser mechanics working for teams with drivers still learning the trade, or sometimes stripped of any usable parts, or sometimes crushed into cubes like it was said Henry "Smokey" Yunick did with several of his more recalcitrant race cars. Supposedly "Smokey" enjoyed giving the crushed race cars a good swift kick as he walked by them in his shop.

The net effect of this is that few "original" race cars of this era remain, and even fewer in original condition. I have personally witnessed many hot discussions about the provenance of a specific racing car... and in reality, if a particular race car was a "special" being one of only one made like it, (no serial number, registry or build plate) who is to say where "original" ends and "reproduction" begins?

There is a term in the art world "trompe l’oeil" which means when translated literally to "trick the eye". I would like to think that the roadsters shown above are more tribute than "trick of the eye" to the originals.

Side question to MrP:

I was under the impression that this is Larry Pfitzenmaier's Watson-Offy (#15 - the 1960 Indy "500" winner)

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Does he own the other car (#2 ) also?

Bonus extra credit question for the peanut gallery:

Name the 4 drivers seated behind the Watson-Offy (l to r).
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#23 Marty Stanley

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 07:13 AM

Besides all of this newly acquired knowledge, I love looking at these cars in great detail.

As you look at all the little details - and there are just so many of them - you see so much history.

It would look like Mobil Oil was the favorite source for the fuel used in these cars.

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I guess I have something about horses and red on race cars!

Look at the true "Knock Off" hubs on these cars. Back in the day before the high torque air tools presently in use. All 100% man power was what made these cars what they are, not technology.

When you look at the photos of the roadsters, you can see the motor being offset to the inside. They were trul oval racing cars - even back then.

Speaking of red cars and horse emblems, does anyone remember what year Ferrari gave a try to Indy?

Posted Image



I'm loving this thread! Lots of cool stuff, lots of memories and I think we're all learning a lot about history. Slotblog's own version of "The History Channel" is right here!
Marty Stanley
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#24 MG Brown

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 09:55 AM

Marty:

As a suggestion I would advise you try to pick up these books (listed in order of my preference):

  • Indy's Wildest Decade - Innovation and Revolution at the Brickyard (by Alex Gabbard)
  • Autocourse Official History of the Indianapolis 500 (by Donald Davidson and Rick Shaffer)
  • Offenhauser - The legendary racing engine and the men who built it (by Gordon Eliot White)
  • Indianapolis 500 Chronicle (by Rick Popely with L. Spencer Riggs)
Of cours,e there are others that focus on certain constructors, such as Novi, but I feel that these books will give you hours of entertainment and insight.

Although none of the books are wholly dedicated to roadsters, a good deal of the content focuses on the pre-composite era of Indy Car racing.
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#25 TSR

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 10:08 AM

Supposedly "Smokey" enjoyed giving the crushed race cars a good swift kick as he walked by them in his shop.

Yunick called me in 2001 as he was trying to trade some 1972 Eagle parts I had access to as he was trying to rebuild his own car that had been chopped in the late 1970's as so many were, with the remains of his 1969 "Spirit of Daytona" Eagle that was such a disappointing car. After the "500", Smokey had drilled every rivet of the monocoque chassis to make sure that it would never be used again. I KNEW that and had to politely decline since I did not see the idea of using 1/2" rivets to rebuild it as an attractive proposition... :laugh2:

Ferrari entered four cars at the 1952 Indy 500. Only one was fast enough to be competitive, but its Borrani wire wheels simply could not take the constant effort of the four long turns.

Two were sold to American entrants and one ran again in 1953 as the Grant Piston Ring Spl driven by Johnny Mauro but was not fast enough.

The JCB car is one of the four but no longer has the original engine as all those were re-fitted to 335 sports cars that later raced in the Mille Miglia. At least one of the cars was fitted with an Offy.

Restoring an old Watson roadster is actually a simple affair because they are very basic cars: a tube frame, a Goodyear fuel cell, a straight-panel aluminum body with two fiberglass ends, two rigid axles, no gearbox, a two-speed Halibrand read end, simple (and grossly inefficient) Airheart disc brakes, and four Halibrand wheels with 6.50-16 tires. Add a 270 Offy with the most basic Hilborn full-time injection and... voila. This explains why there are so many replicas.

Finding one with CONTINUOUS and PROVEN history is a whole different matter...

And Mick, my mistake, the #2 car is not Larry's car, sorry! :)

Philippe de Lespinay






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