28 replies to this topic

[manitouguy]

Hi all,

These are some scans of an old pamphlet from Simco Products, Inc. from 1966.

Some of you may find it interesting or helpful. I have never rewound a motor - seems like quite the technical task!!!









Regards,

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Then, most tracks gave the pamphlets away free to promote selling the wire.

I like the way they described their zapper though. Even then we knew it only worked on iron block Pittmans.

Last time I saw a Simco zapper in action was at Rad Trax; Jon Perricos had one. I have heard rumors that others still have theirs.

Fate

[wilbor56]

Wow, all that information for just 25 cents! Who says you can't find a bargain any more?

Nice post which answers some questions I had about five-pole comms.

[Cheater]

Bill,

Your questions about five-pole arms is one of main reasons I contacted Ron to ask him to post his scans here.

[One_Track_Mind]

WOW!

And to think I even paid money on eBay for this piece of paper and now I can get it for free on Slotblog!

(Not that I've ever done anything with it.)

[Marty Stanley]

Talk about a trip down Memory Lane - where's Joe Franklin?

That booklet, one of the armature winders that were sold in most slot shops, and some wire were all one needed to get involved in the craze of 'rewinding'.

There were so many facets to that segment of the hobby. Single winds, double winds, triple winds, silver wire, etc.

To be quite frank, I sure am glad that we don't do that anymore. A motor that is standard is just much better for the hobby. At least in my opinion.

Thanks for posting this.

[tonyp]

When I started racing the rewinding side of the hobby was big. All the over-the-counter chassis were pretty much all pretty close in the handling department. Now if you could wind a fast motor you could really see the difference on the track. On those big Engleman tracks out here HP won more races than handling did.

It was very satisifying putting your homemade motor down and pulling everyone by 10' around the bank. Of course 20 laps later it was blown up. LOL.

[Keith Tanaka]

I still remember the excitement of the moment when you first try out your new rewound motor at the track. It's similar to the feeling of when you tried out your newly-built chassis for the first time. Fortunately, that same feeling occurs today when I try out a newly-built retro car at BPR.

I don't build/rewind motors anymore (and I don't want to), but I think BPR's upcoming Frankenmotor race will bring back a few memories from the '60s.

Keith

[havlicek]

When I started racing the rewinding side of the hobby was big. All the over-the-counter chassis were pretty much all pretty close in the handling department. Now if you could wind a fast motor you could really see the difference on the track.

Yeah, everything you needed was available right over the counter... even individual arm parts... comms, plates, complete blanks, wire... even epoxy, etc. My friends and I were crazed with the whole "mystery behind the motor", and it was GOOD for slots because the tracks sold a bunch of this stuff and people were winding/trying/burning/winding again. That of course was outside of the fact that people were not just running those motors but racing them, too. Back then, if your car cleared the track by 1/16", the body covered the chassis and it wasn't wider than allowed... anything was allowed as far as motors.

To be quite frank, I sure am glad that we don't do that anymore. A motor that is standard is just much better for the hobby. At least in my opinion.

Respectfully... not at all because of what I said above. Spec motors and homebrew both *could* easily have a place in current slots... it's the money that's the problem, not the motors, and there's no reason why those motors have to be part of a many hundreds of dollars car. Sure, some people won't be able to drive them or even be attracted to them... but the kick from spinning up a motor that you wound yourself (even if it's not the best thing around) is hard to beat.

It's no big deal anyway, as hackers like me can always be into this end of the hobby for themselves or for vintage-type cars, but this was a great part of the cool history of slots.

[wilbor56]

Well, I just finished my first wind in 20 or so years, talk about an ugly duckling and no, I'm not going to post any photos of it, would not want to scare any of you, although it did come in at 2.4 ohms, 45t #28. And yes, I did get them all on there.

Again thanks for contacting him and thank you for posting that online for all of us to see.

[Michael Rigsby]

I can remember doing all my own rewinding and dewinding. Purchasing comms, wire, epoxy and such. I had one whole half of my hobby workbench at my folks place devoted to nothing but making motor and boxes of blanks, comms, wire... sheesh.

Then I started figuring up the time I had into it and realized at the time I could buy an already-made Mura arm that was somewhat balanced for $6.99 or so and save myself some headaches and went that route. Maybe for a special race I would dig out the LaGanke and wind up a pretty one and epoxy and bake it, then try to put a makeshift balance job on it. But, for weekend racing in general, I went with the pre-made stuff. It seemed to do OK unless you got one with a bad comm that exploded.

But it's nice seeing that old Simco flier. Pretty much everything I learned about rewinding came from tearing things apart to see what made them work and having my dad teach me how to use an ohmmeter correctly.

At that age you took notes and learned what would let the smoke out real quick and what would keep the smoke contained.

Michael Rigsby

[wilbor56]

Well put, John. Something to be said for putting something out there that you have put that much time and effort into, even if you only get 20 or so laps out of it before it goes up in a glorious puff of smoke and flames.

It's just knowing that you can tear it apart and do it all over again. Once the scars and wounds on your hands have healed from the first wind. LOL! And they say there is no blood and guts to this sport. Just let them wind an arm and see how fast they change their tune.

[havlicek]

Well, I just finished my first wind in 20 or so years, talk about an ugly duckling and no, I'm not going to post any photos of it, would not want to scare any of you, although it did come in at 2.4 ohms, 45t #28. And yes, I did get them all on there.

That sounds about right, Bill (the 2.4 ohms part and the ugly duckling part as I've sure done my share!). I had a heckuva time getting started again myself. After all those years, I could remember the basics, but the all-important feel was gone.

Also, getting to the point where you sort of know how a wind will go is something I'm still working on. Still, when I try a new wind (it could be because it's a different blank or just a different gauge on a blank I'm familiar with), I will often do the first pole or two... dewind it and toss the wire to start again until I get a pattern and a "rhythm" (for lack of a better word) that I know will work. I'm truly stoked that you went for it. That arm would be a hot one for sure, but probably not at all unmanageable.

-john

PS: Those old arms got here and I'll figure out something to do with them for sure, so thanks for that, too.

[manitouguy]

Hi all -

Neat to see your comments on the pamphlet and glad it was of some use to a few of you, or brought back some good memories at least.

I was born just after the mid '60s slot car craze and never got the chance to partake in all its glory. -Started at home with the AFX stuff in early '70s, and as you may have seen from my blog? over at SlotForum, found my way into 1/32.

I am getting more and more interested in scratchbuilding - carving my own bodies and have started a bit of soldering - lots to learn on the chassis building front yet. (I am hoping one of the locals 'in the know' here in Vancouver area will school me a bit - Bob 'endbelldrive'.)

Just picked up my first two 1/24 slot cars... and maybe hooked! But this motor rewinding really seems to be a 'dark science' to me!! Very daunting...

At any rate - I routinely go to a friend's place where he has piles of old and odd slot stuff - if any more old 'tech' paperwork turns up i will post it too for others to enjoy!

i will likely be picking up a few dozen vintage 1/24 bodies next to donate for repops - sadly I don't know enough about the motors and chassis yet to pick neat stuff out of his boxes of 'junk'... but I am learning!

Cheers,

[Bill from NH]

Sadly I don't know enough about the motors and chassis yet to pick neat stuff out of his boxes of 'junk'... but I am learning!

Ron, when you go, take plenty of photos to post here. We'll help.

[Champion 507]

Yeah, I rewound every 16D I could get my hands on. I've picked many a shattered Mabuchi comm out of the endbell after I "zinged" the newly-rewound arm in a motor set up to see if it was fast. If it made it past that, it got epoxied and balanced. All I had back then was a handcrank drill and I wasn't very skilled at using it... gouged too many windings when it slipped off the arm stack as I started to drill balance it. I balanced most of my arms with a hand file.

Fast was one thing... getting the car to stop was another. I remember being so glad when Champion came out with 6 tooth pinions. Now I could gear my car 6/35 and almost get it to stop.

I guess I could compare my early rewinding to today's lottery player. I was always winding another arm, just as the guy is always stopping by the convenience store to buy more tickets, always hoping I could wind and build a motor to win the next race... maybe this one will be better than a factory one. But, alas, never getting the winning ticket or building the fastest motor. I guess you could say I was a Steube wannabe.

Now that my racing days are pretty much over, I enjoy the building aspect of the hobby. I've got a few vintage motors to build/restore and some brass rod and motor brackets and I'll build some cars that very much resemble stuff from 40 years ago.

Like a friend of mine said years ago, "I may grow older but I refuse to grow up".

[havlicek]

Ron, when you go, take plenty of photos to post here. We'll help.

Don't listen to Bill, just send the whole lot to me and I'll find the good stuff and return the rest... that way you'll know for sure which is which.

Doug,

There are lots of folks here who wound/rewound motors years ago and some like you and I, who are doing it again for the first time in decades. Now you don't have to do it because stock motors aren't fast... but just for the enjoyment of doing something interesting.

[manitouguy]

guys - i had taken a whole bunch of pics of some of his stuff a while back

hope it is ok with mods here ...

on my blog on slotforum (same user name manitouguy) under a 4 pt post called treasure hunt treasures there are plenty of pics

and on my last trip i picked up my first 1/24 cars - that post is in the vintage and collectors section from a few days ago (i got some old clear bodies for repopping and a nice amt cyclone too)

i had asked dr p way back when and he kinfly took a look at the images saying there was nothing overly unique there ... except a pam chevy body in 1/24
(one of the ones i will pick up and donate or perhaps have repopped for others to enjoy)

anyhow if you get a kick out of looking at old slot 'junk piles' then go have a gander - i sure have fun rummaging through the stuff in person!

cheers, Ron

[Champion 507]

John - you're right we don't HAVE to do it now. As a matter of fact I was told several years ago that the slowest, cheapest slot car made today is FASTER than the 1968 world champion and I believe it. It's been my belief that if we had better magnets and better rear tires back in the day, we would have been a lot faster. I'm not even including wing cars. Okeefe proved with his popsicle stick car that almost anything will fly under a properly built wing body!

You read all the old magazines and you see where someone broke the track record somewhere at a blistering time of 6.32 sec on a king track. Personally, I've been 5.23 in a stock FCR with a NASCAR body and a SEALED, stock Deathstar motor and 4.59 in a 4.5" flexi chassis with an RJR American arm in a stock Deathstar setup and a NASCAR body on the local king track due, in part, to better motors and tires. Those American arms are just about as indestructible as you can get...and FAST! Their 70 turns of #30 is faster than my 35 turns of #26 was back in the day and the stacks on the American 16D arms are longer than the arm stacks of old, so that means there is even more #30 wire on those arms compared to the old days.

Yup, rewinding is now is done for fun, not because we "have" to. Although now I've been having fun making drag motors out of current Chinese 16D motor parts and winding some stupid winds you would never think about for a road course arm. They only have to go 55 feet at a tome so heat isn't much of a factor. My main limiting factor is today's Chinese comm. While they're better than Mabuchi's, they don't compare to Kirkwoods or today's hi-perf comms. I've built some motors that have run some very strong sub one second passes at a track in another town. My challenge now is to get one into the upper .8 second range. My ultimate goal is to get a Chinese 16D into the .7's using one of those Mura aftermarket comms that you use John.

Do I need help or what.

[havlicek]

Doug,

I've been there with the 16D arms and they're a great way to get back into winding. Ron Hershman was nice enough to send me a bunch for very little $$$ and the darned things work well! The fact that the arm will pretty much "fit" so many vintage and current motors makes them a homerun. Truthfully, those coms aren't that bad either and are lightyears beyond the stock Mabuchi stuff. I always appreciate it when people send me old 16D arms they have no use for because with a bit of work you got a nice blank. The Mura stuff is very nice but pricey and really not at all necessary for a lot of applications...we are just having fun after all right? What's really cool about revisiting all this stuff is the different "personalities" all these motors have. The Mabuchi stuff is tons of fun because they generally are so weak stock that it's easy to improve them in so many ways. It's kind of cool that they stink so bad The Champion stuff (especially their own) is sort of somewhere between the old and the new and you can do a LOT with them. The Mura stuff to me is really the beginning of the modern era. Those motors just crank and even being heavy are capable of impressive horsepower. Besides...I think the two hole green can is deadly cool looking Funny thing is, I get just as much of a kick doing a Russkit 22/23 as a Champion as a Mura.

Here's the thing though, for like $20 you can get a brand new Mura C can (I like the Muras...but they're all nice) setup with Red Dots in there and have a wonderful platform for winding some of those 16D arms. The motors aren't "vintage", but they're small, light and can be really powerful...PLUS...you don't pay "vintage" prices.

So now here's the best part of all this, sending off one of your arms or motors to someone who's going to build a car around it. Now THAT is a trip! I know of a couple of other people here who have or are testing the rewinding waters a little. I sure hope more people try it...or try it again both because it's such fun and because I think we can all learn from each other. Keep winding!

-john

[Champion 507]

John, I know what you mean. You can hide some Parma EPX magnets in a Cox TTX100 can, install a black Tradeship endbell, rewind a Hershman arm converted to an endbell drive and have a screamer on your hands, while on the outside it appears pretty much stock. I think in racing, they refer to that as a sleeper.

Hershman ought to know my name and address by heart by now. I've bought many of his armatures over the past 3 or 4 years off epay, plus his motor brushes, cans, endbells and colored tire donuts.

On his armatures the web is a little thick but the green epoxy coating sure does its job of preventing shorts to the arm stack. I've unwound 'em, rewound 'em and de-wound 'em and had good results. I've done the same with Parma's but they're a lot more work. I even made an endbell drive arm out of one of them as an experiment. I haven't wound it yet but it looks like it will be good. I may make more.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Doug, the "slowest car today is faster than the 1968 world champion" is apples and oranges. Unilke most, I kept my cars. I was not a world champion. But I observe that tracks are so much faster today than in the period.

Imagine this: I HAVE my 1968 cars. Turned 6.5s then, turn 4.5s now!

It is the track, surface, smoothness and so on.

A story, when the local hillclimb opened about 15 years ago, their first class was "group 10". Parma rules. The rules, I guess to make it look like parma wasn't writing rules to favor parma said "Any group 10 or 12 chassis past or present. And "any 16d equivilent to the Parma 501 deathstar with ceramic magnets and a 30 single wind".

So, I showed up with a Dynamic Anglewinder with a Mura 8 can and a medium stack 30s wind...and was the lap record holder. The car was immediatly banned at the track with a new rule , Not currently avaialable. Now I DID have 30 years to dial it it, of course, but the point was that the car was as fast as the common Parma Flexi with a deathstar...despite the big front tires.

In the day, my 36ds turned some 11.5s on the king, and now run in the 8s. The track is smoother and faster.

Fate

[idare2bdul]

In addition to smoother and faster tracks due to surface banking and modern tires, todays power is much better. Tracks often have bigger wire, more taps and better grounding than vintage tracks. In the past tracks often hooked up simple battery chargers to supplement the batteries which led to unfiltered AC leaking into the track power to heat motors and fry controllers.

Making a comparison between eras is difficult at best.

[Horsepower]

Hi,

Then, most tracks gave the pamphlets away free to promote selling the wire.


Fate

I bought a box of Simco #28 and inside the factory sealed box was several sheets of this pamphlet. This is good info even today, that is if you are bold enough to rewind.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

What "bold"? This hobby was oriented to kids, and from day one, kids were rewinding. What is the worst that can happen?

Fate