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#26 Bill from NH

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 07:33 PM

Zip cord & 2-conductor lamp cord are terms often used interchangeably, but they're not the same thing. Zip cord has one side of its insulation molded with fine serations so polarities don't get mixed up when connecting speakers to receivers. With that said, I've never used either for leadwire, but have used the speaker wire with the clear insulation in the past. :)

Bill Fernald
 

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#27 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 08:53 PM

...not to put too fine a point on it Bill, but here's the definition of "lamp cord" from Google:

Also known as zip cord or SP wire, these small diameter stranded wires are covered with rubber insulation.

:)

Lamp cord, speaker cord and zip cord all need to have easily identifiable polarity markings, all are basicly and functionally the same...but the clear stuff is most often referred to as speaker cord even though many lamps are wired with the stuff. Truthfully, any stranded 2-conductor non-shielded cable can be used for speaker hookups.

-john
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#28 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 10:16 PM

I might have spoken too soon Doug. Here's a #27 I'm working on (it's in the "Easy Bake Oven") and it's 44 turns (.3 ohm) without much trouble on a vintage blank. Maybe you did have that much #26 wire on there!

Posted Image

-john
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#29 Pablo

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 10:29 PM

John, when you give a comm some heavy timing, how do you keep the comm tabs from interfering with the wires when you wind it ?
I think you may say "I advance the timing after the winding is done" but I'm not sure.

BTW, I'm having a senior moment, you DID get those BB's, right ?
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#30 Champion 507

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 12:28 AM

John,

You're correct in saying that the Champion insulators "take up real estate" in the winding areas of an armature, especially with their 36D's. And I didn't modify these after I installed them. I just put them on and wound the arm.

I used to read the race reports in Car Model and the other mags of the day. I particularly read the spec charts of the winning cars. I would see where motors were wound with 60 to 65 turns of #28 or 70 turns of #29. I used to wonder "how did they do that?" It was all I could do to get 50 turns of #28 on a 16D!! Maybe they ground off some of the web, I don't know.

The more I thought about it after I read your post, the more I realized it may have been in the low to mid 30's on the number of turns, not 40.
Doug Azary
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#31 havlicek

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:47 AM

John, when you give a comm some heavy timing, how do you keep the comm tabs from interfering with the wires when you wind it ?
I think you may say "I advance the timing after the winding is done" but I'm not sure.

BTW, I'm having a senior moment, you DID get those BB's, right ?


Hi Pablo,

Timing is approximately +22degrees on this one, which is about as high as I go anymore. At the angle in the picture, it foes look even more radical though. I get your point too about the com tabs interfering and that's MUCH more of a problem with the Kirkwoods that have that gigantic "fish hook" tab style hanging way down. I use a toothpick to finesse the wire past the tabs, then put a slight bit more pressure on the wire to get it to fall in place. It's way MORE difficult still on 26D arms because the overall length of the stack and com is so short for the room inside the motor, Not long ago, I did a 26D with a Kirkwood-type com and I threw out a LOT of wire before I could get a pattern that fit all that wire under and behind the tabs :blink:

Yes, I got the BB's and had sent you a PM. MUCH appreciated buddy! Odd thing is that I have several sets of vintage BB's from other generous bloggers as well as yourself and they all are slightly oversized for the 36D arm shaft and fit a 3/32" axle perfectly. The one Champion 36D I did for Tom Scott came with a really nice shielded bearing installed in the can that was a very snug fit for the arm shaft. I have no idea where that came from or if it was stock, but it's the only tight-fitting 36D bearing I've seen...and have searched the web for them as well.

I used to read the race reports in Car Model and the other mags of the day. I particularly read the spec charts of the winning cars. I would see where motors were wound with 60 to 65 turns of #28 or 70 turns of #29. I used to wonder "how did they do that?" It was all I could do to get 50 turns of #28 on a 16D!! Maybe they ground off some of the web, I don't know.


Hi Doug,

Funny you should mention that as I remember thinking the exact same thing...often! :) Some of the winds seemed odd without even trying them, but the setup they're going in (as well as the stack length) can make a big difference. I think that some motor builders did grind the inside of the stack/web area for some more room, but I think that was later on. The vintage experts here probably know the exact details...or if that even happened. Two things DO come back to me though and I still do them. If I'm using a vintage blank with fiber insulators, I epoxy them to the stack and use clamps to keep them straight and flat while curing. Afterwards I trim them dead flush to the stack and this gets you a neater wind as well as opening up a lot of room. The insulators are always a little proud of the stack ends to better prevent shorts and this leaves air space under the coils. That's really unnecessary as I coat the stack with insulator before winding. I also just don't use the Champion insulators at all...the ones that cover the entire stack and stack ends. They really work great at preventing shorts, but are space-gobblers.

-john
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#32 Prof. Fate

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 02:03 PM

Hi

I thought we had already discussed some of this stuff. Perhaps I am having a senior moment!

Phil, I always used length. I would pull out the book and check the chart to decide where I wanted to be, mark that length of wire and start winding. "Turns" was a backup to make sure I was getting things even.

I didn't grind the webs, though I KNOW we did discuss somewhere builing up arms using different manufactured lams based on quality of metal and the web thickness.

And I am pretty sure we discussed "feel". Belden wire, Simco wire, modern wider is a given gauge within a limited range. And one can develop a touch to feel when the wire is thicker and thinner. This is why hand winds beat factory winds with a decent winder. One FEELS the changing thickness and slightly adjust the tension while streaching the wire by hand as you wind.

This makes it a touch (grin) thinner and explains some of the winds(disinformation the rest! grin).

Fate
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#33 havlicek

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 06:29 PM

Hi Doug,

I finished off the arm above. It balanced really easily and sang nicely drawing around 2+ amps until the com blew apart at 4 volts. How many times did you have that happen back then :-) Good news is the #27 wind was a great starting point...AND...I know not to use that type com again :laugh2: It looked sorta of like a Tradeship but was shorter and had a different "skirt" under the tabs. The material it was made from looked different also. I have some here that are labelled as "Classic" products...avoid them :) The way I see it, it all goes towards experience.

-john
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#34 Pablo

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 08:33 PM

Show us a photo of the exploded one :crazy:
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#35 Champion 507

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 11:28 PM

Let's have some more "phun"!

This is a Champion 517 made with parts from several motors and an original armature I wound years ago. This one, however, features a couple of design changes as you will see. The opening in the endbell for the armature shaft is larger and the small aluminum housing for the can bushing has been replaced with a large one-piece bushing. Here are all the parts before assembly begins. Everything is genuine Champion except for the motor label and the brush springs. The brush springs are Certus but they are similar in shape to the Champions. I shined the springs up with a wire brush in a Dremel to make them appear more original.

DSCF3207.JPG


The can for this motor came just as you see it here and was purchased at a slot car swap meet a couple of years ago.

DSCF1976.JPG


Upon removal of the motor from the chassis and motor disassembly, I observed a little bit of excessive slop in the can bushing. Not having one to replace it, I had to make do with what was there. You will notice six little indentions around the hole. I used a small hammer and gently tapped a center punch to "swell" the bushing material around the hole. Figuring this motor probably will not ever be raced again, this was good enough to get it going.

DSCF3211.JPG


A nice little thing discovered about this motor was a beautifully preserved pair of Arco DZ magnets safely ensconced inside. Arco DZs are identified by a pair of red dots on one magnet and a pair of yellow dots on the other magnet as you see here. This also shows the use of Champion's newer 2 piece magnet shims, replacing the one piece that had been in use since the later 507's were developed.

DSCF3209.JPG


With the can prepped and ready, it was time to move on to the endbell. As you can see, the brush hood extends above the top of the endbell. This brush hood is actually for the 36D motor but we are going to make it work. It will appear very close to the original when completed.

DSCF3220.JPG DSCF3221.JPG


First step is to reconfigure the top of the brush hood by re-bending it 1/16th of an inch down from the solder tab as you see here.

DSCF3222.JPG


Because this brush hood is taller the hole for the screw needs to be elongated for proper attachment to the end bell. A rat tail file was used to do this as you see here.

DSCF3223.JPG


With both hoods reconfigured and mounted in place, the end bell looks very much like an original.

DSCF3224.JPG


This is another one of those wind-it-yourself armature kits from Champion that I have had since new. I think I wound this with #27 wire but do not remember how many turns. This was done over 40 years ago. Besides, it doesn't look any worse than Champion's factory winds of the time. A few years back I had it balanced and trued. An original Champion would have been balanced with a bench grinder. Obviously this is drill-balanced and does not represent authentic balancing procedures by the company at that time, but it runs smoothly.

DSCF3229.JPG


Here is what everything looks like all assembled:

DSCF3231.JPG DSCF3232.JPG DSCF3233.JPG


As stated above, the armature is the only part of this motor that I have had since new. I showed you where the can came from and a number of NOS parts were used in the build.

Thanks for looking! The next installment will feature the restoration of a Champion 617 that I have had since new.
Doug Azary
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#36 Champion 507

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 11:44 PM

John,

I forget who said it or where I read it but someone recommended that Tradeship type comms probably shouldn't be used on arms wound with anything larger than #29. I'm sorry that happened to you. :cray: To quote a worn out saying: "been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, wore it out".

Can you recycle the arm and put a different comm on it and try it again?

As Pablo requested do you have a photo of the carnage?
Doug Azary
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#37 havlicek

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 07:16 AM

Hi Doug,

Another really nice 517! What's really different about these motors (aside from the cool chrome exterior) is how feakin' thick the can material is ...even more so to be formed from a single piece of steel instead of seamed and welded at the sides. The other thing I find cool and unique about them is the heavy tooling marks evident on the cans (no doubt the result of forming that thick steel)...they almost have a "handmade" appearance and have a solid/impressive feel to them.

On the can bushing, peening the sides of the bushing to tighten it up is a good fix if the motor won't be run much. Another not too difficult fix is to just leave the bushing in place and drill it out for either a replacement bushing or ball bearing. If you use a bushing and sand it flush on the outside afterwards, the replacement will be all but invisible unless you really look closely. The good news is that future replacements would be much easier to source as that can bushing is an oddball.

These are great motors that have a solid/expensive feel and a really attractive look. Nice work!

I forget who said it or where I read it but someone recommended that Tradeship type comms probably shouldn't be used on arms wound with anything larger than #29. I'm sorry that happened to you. To quote a worn out saying: "been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, wore it out".


I've grown to trust real Tradeship coms much more and have "torture tested" more than a few of them. As I said, this wasn't a Tradeship, but resembled one ...sorta. Truthfully, the only com failures I've had before this were with the Kirkwoods that seem so bombproof. The thing is, all of these things will degrade somewhat after 40 or 50 years depending on how they've been stored. Even under the best of conditions, plastic gets brittle. Because I'm careful about how I tie the coms, the top of the com is always the part that goes. I don't have a good way to cap the coms. although I have sometimes just epoxied a fiber washer to the end before cutting the com for what it's worth. On the saying about not using a Tradeship with a wind heavier than #29, we often used the stock Mabuchi coms on #30 and #31 arms when we were kids (who had money for luxuries!?) and the Tradeship is a BIG step up from those.

Can you recycle the arm and put a different comm on it and try it again?


No...for obvious reasons, I don't spin the arms up until after they've been epoxied and balanced. It's toast! It really doesn't bother me much (after the original first reaction of...aw crud), this is all part of "learning by doing" and maybe more than any other aspect of slots, winding motors has LOTS of these failures.

As Pablo requested do you have a photo of the carnage?


I'd have to go digging through the garbage...ain't gonna happen :) In any case, It's not like a picture of a blown com is that unique or interesting. #27 wire is a good intermediate size though and I can see lots of use for it...both in vintage and newer-model motors. It's not as difficult to work with as the really big wire gauges and the motors will probably be dead center between scarey and mild...nice! Back to the Motor Shop!

-john
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#38 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 08:02 AM

Another nice motor build Doug! Not to get off track, but why do you suppose Champion went to the cans with only one vent hole? Was it done to influence the magnetic field? I would have thought having two holes would have provided more air movement through the motor. One other dumb question, if I may ask. Was the vent hole supposed to face up or face down? I might have put the solid side of the can down so as not to suck up pins & other artifacts off the track. I do recall Champion returning to the vent holes top & bottom on their c-cans. :)

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#39 havlicek

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 08:17 AM

Bill...THANKS for asking that :) I would have done the same as you and put the vent on the top...but then again there's way more air flowing across the can on the bottom because it's not covered by the body so I don't think either is preferable from a mechanical standpoint.(???) I'd like to know what the Pros did...or even if they also did it either way??? I would also guess (as you did) that the single hole was to maybe have a stronger field, but these motors must have gotten pretty warm when run hard. I have several each of the thinner Mabuchi Champion cans in black with one hole/one side only and chrome with one hole/one side only so I guess this was a "Champion thing" from the get go???

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#40 Jairus

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 08:59 AM

Air is a fluid and the dynamic laws conducted in the flow of air are the same as those that govern the flow of water. Except for the fact that water is of course much denser. Run a two hole motor and a one hole motor under water and watch the water movement. The effects are startling as the spinning arm becomes an impeller forcing water out the vent hole. With a two hole motor the arm will force the water/air out both sides. Since a vacuum cannot exist in any open state.... the water/air flows in through the ends replacing that which is forced out the vents and the cycle continues. The result is a constant flow of air, much like a hair dryer, which is very effective at keeping the motor cool.

In my opinion one whole or two doesn't matter one iota because the opening is still large enough to accommodate the airflow. Restricted openings however are a different matter altogether. Example: a Mura one-holer just might be too restricting for good cooling.

Mounting the Champion motors with the vent hole on the bottom makes sense because many time the body lays so close to the top of the motor as it would most-likely cover the hole and restrict flow. On the bottom however that air has lots of room to exhaust.
Oh... and it blows OUT the vent hole - it dosn't suck. The magnets however are where loose pins get attracted to so I can see the confusion... :laugh2:

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#41 Hworth08

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 09:49 AM

Bad comm...I don't remember which but one of the replacement comms was notorious for blowing up and usually on it's first trip to the track.

One hole cans... We used to discuss this 40 years ago! :) A thick can is generally a more magnetic can so that might have been the reason. A 1-hole can would have had to suck more air through the endbell so it could have been to aid in cooling the comm, the area where all the heat begins. We always installed the can solid side down to lower the COG and keep out track trash.
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#42 havlicek

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 10:17 AM

Bad comm...I don't remember which but one of the replacement comms was notorious for blowing up and usually on it's first trip to the track.


...sounds like this one :)

We always installed the can solid side down to lower the COG and keep out track trash.


I never thought about the COG thing, there's another point.

Hi Jairus,

All true! However:

The magnets however are where loose pins get attracted to so I can see the confusion...


Which is behind reasoning for putting the vent hole on the top! :) I'd still like to know if there was a consensus back then as to how to mount the things???

-john
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#43 don.siegel

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 10:42 AM

Actually John, now that I think of it, we have a random sampling courtesy of ebay: and the consensus is that the solid side was against the track and the hole up on top. I just received an old 517 powered chassis yesterday and that's the way it was, reminding me that most of the others I've seen were too. Of course, that's ordinary drivers and not necessarily the pros, but it's still a trend!

Now, if you want to get really, uh, persnickety, think about how many guys mounted their cars with the label on top, and how many with the label on the bottom (for Russkit or other motors with the label on a flat side of the can). There it's more like 50/50 I believe...

Don

#44 Jairus

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 10:45 AM

Well... in 1968 Mike Steube mounted his with the vent hole down!
Posted Image
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#45 havlicek

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 12:15 PM

Thanks Don and Jairus. I guess it was done either way!? Here's another one while we're on this kind of minute detail. On one side of the Mabuchi and similar endbells the bushing tower has a notch molded lengthwise into it...the other side is a straight rectangle with no notch. What is the notch for? I've wondered about that since...well...the 60's :blink: :unsure: :blush: :)

-john
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#46 Prof. Fate

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 01:09 PM

Hi

Before the 517, we shimmed the magnets with either a "can in can" or with thin homade shims behind the magnets. In the latter case we often used old #11 xacto blades top and bottom to finish the spacing. SOME of us felt that the stiffer 11s helped the can.

and this was a real point. Remember what a racetrack looked like then. Virtually all the time, there would be kids running 12 buck rtrs on the tracks. A lot of these cars had fiddly little nuts and bolts on them and as none of the kids had heard of "locktite", the track commonly had junk on the track. thus, sucking up set screws was a common way to lose an arm. AND, therefor, blank side down! Grin.

My biggest issue with the can was the bushing. Still is. It is common for me to find that I had punched out the mabuchi floating bushing and replace it with a regular bushing or bearing. My racing MO then was to tear down and rebuild the motor every race. Others probably did not.

Coms. Starting with the leaf coms of the 15r back with my strombeckers, I had gotten into the habit of taking a thin thread, running it through a bit of epoxy and wrapping the leaves front and rear. This means that I used a lot of ordinary mabuchi coms with some success. All hot motors are a "race" to stress the system to see what is going to blow first!

Fate
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#47 havlicek

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 04:00 PM

all interesting Rocky but:

My biggest issue with the can was the bushing. Still is. It is common for me to find that I had punched out the mabuchi floating bushing and replace it with a regular bushing or bearing.


Yeah, those caged bushings just didn't seem like a good idea, but did this type Champion even come with those?

-john
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#48 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 05:36 PM

Here's another one while we're on this kind of minute detail. On one side of the Mabuchi and similar endbells the bushing tower has a notch molded lengthwise into it...the other side is a straight rectangle with no notch. What is the notch for? I've wondered about that since...well...the 60's :blink: :unsure: :blush: :)


In the late 60s & early 70s, we used that notch to clear the right hand half rail in can mounted anglewinders.

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#49 TSR

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 06:49 PM

The Champion cans with the large bushing were the last ones made. From what I have gathered, it was a cost-reduction design done by Ed Lewis when he became general manager of the place under the presidency of Bob Rule. But on these motors, the can is also different from the original 517 because the original tooling broke.

The company that made the cans for Champion (they sub-contracted the cans to a stamping company in Atlanta) began making those new cans that have a much rougher appearance due to the new tooling not being exactly as good as the original, and requiring hand grinding on the blind side to remove high spots. The new can was used on the US and British issues of the "Orange Picker", as well as a few other UK-only issues such as the Big Louie etc. as well as new Champion production motors (Group 12, Group 20, Group 22, Group 7) were assembled from 1969 on and sold separately, but mostly in Champion RTR cars.

At the end of the day, hundreds (thousands?) of "chrome" 517 cans were left from the chrome plating but without bearings, and Rule had the stamping company assemble the new bearings in the old cans. But they were left unused as Champion had moved on to the black cans, so they just sat, that is until Carl Ford sold them all to REH in the late 1980's.

Picture on the left: from left to right: "new" 1969 Champion can (chrome plated or black), "old" Champion can as used in all the 517 (chrome) and some 525 (black) and the short lived "517" that briefly used the 1968-style Mabuchi can.

Now there is one more bearing, and that was used on the later "525" black motors, as well as on the "Cozine Signature" motor. That bearing has a similar aluminum housing for the bronze bushing as in the 517, but shortened for can-side drive use. You can see it on the picture at right.

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As far as lead wire, Champion only used the clear-insulation "lamp cord" on the 700 series motor PARTS, but never on the motors themselves that kept their Mabuchi green and red lead wires.
But as early as the "507-R" series (modified Mabuchi can, nickel plated and using the new bronze bearing on the can), new Champion-specific, multi-strand white lead wires appear (see at left):

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by the time the "517" appears, all the production motors receive the white lead wires that will be used also on all the RTR cars until the very end:

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The good news for the enthusiast, is that they can get that very lead wire to restore their motors, because when Electric Dreams bought the Champion vintage assets, they got a box full of NOS wire in perfect condition.

CLICK HERE

I have been using that very wire for my D3 cars to good effect... :)

Oh, also, there is a whole lot of black cans, now trimmed for axle clearance for angle-winder use, on which the bearing has been assembled in reverse! Nothing really wrong with that as long as your armature stack is not too long... :laugh2:

#50 Champion 507

Champion 507

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 08:13 PM

Back when I raced the one hole Champion motors or motors that had the one piece shim that covered one of the holes in a Mabuchi can, we always put the closed side down, so as to not pick up loose parts from the track.

I know a few guys who race wing cars today and I have seen some of the carnage from their open or cobalt motors that have picked up a stray body pin during a race. OUCH! You're talking in the neighborhood of an instant $300 loss! Can, magnets and arm all destroyed by a 5 cent body pin. That's too rich for me.
Doug Azary
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