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#51 havlicek

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 06:38 AM

That's sorta what I figured Doug. :)

Philippe,

Thanks as always for the exhaustive explanation with pictures! Now just send that ugly motor in the plastic case that someone has done grafitti on to me :laugh2:

-john
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#52 Champion 507

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 12:49 AM

PdL,

Would you post a clearer (maybe a 3/4) view of the back end of a Cozine motor, please?
Doug Azary
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#53 Russell Sheldon

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 04:06 AM

Here's an advertisement for the Cozine Signature from an old Model Cars magazine:-


Posted Image


Kind regards,

Russell

Russell Sheldon
Cape Town, South Africa

--------------------------------------
 


#54 Champion 507

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 09:47 PM

Let's have some more "phun"!

This is a Champion 617 26D size motor that I have had since new (1968). It's original shunted brushes are long gone. Both the solder tabs on the endbell have broken off as well as one of the brush spring retainer hooks. Several years ago I was able to obtain an NOS endbell and a pair of shunted brushes, so that is what I am replacing today. Here is our starting place:

DSCF3331.JPG


In this close up of the endbell, you can see both of the solder tabs are broken off and one of the spring retainer hooks is also broken. I bent the top of the right brush spring and secured it with the brush hood screw. Forty years ago as a teenager it was the cheapest fix I could come up with.

DSCF3334.JPG


New for 1968, Champion was color coding their armature insulators on both the 517 and 617. Thru much research and examples finally showing up, it has been determined which insulators were available. The color of the insulator represented the size wire the armature was wound with. Red was #26 gauge, green was #27 gauge, purple was #28 gauge, and blue was #29 gauge. Here is a copy of the ad from the March, 1968 Car Model Magazine showing all the new developments for the two motors.

Color_Coded_Insulators.jpg


Here is the armature complete with Champion's bench grinder balancing marks. This one has purple insulators so it was wound with #28 wire.

DSCF3348.JPG


Basically it was "off with the old" and "on with the new" endbell. Here is everything all assembled.

DSCF3349.JPG DSCF3351.JPG DSCF3352.JPG


Except for the faded motor label this ol' gal almost looks new again. It originally came with the cheap Jap ball bearing in the can but I replaced it with a bronze bushing years ago. It still runs good and draws less than one amp. I will probably make a scratchbuilt brass rod inline stock car chassis for this and, more than likely, will use one of those re-pop Lexan Ford Torino or Mercury Cyclone bodies on it.

Next time we re-convene we are going to literally bring back a Champion 601 from the dead and update it in the process.

See you next time - same bat time, same bat channel.
Doug Azary
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#55 havlicek

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 05:57 AM

Hi Doug,

Another beautiful motor :wub: , for me easily the nicest of all the 26Ds. Again, it's fabulous that you kept it all these years...and even more so that it will see track time in a new chassis!

-john
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#56 Champion 507

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 10:12 PM

And it keeps on gettin' "phunner"!

Most people probably would have thrown this motor away! As a matter of fact, a former track owner gave this to me several years ago because he did not think it was worth anything. To me it looked like a diamond in the rough and I thought I could save it. This is the early version of Champion's 601 because it has the foil motor sticker on the side and top and bottom vent holes instead of the one closed side we are accustomed to seeing. Here is the beast before it becomes a beauty.

DSCF3260.JPG DSCF3262.JPG DSCF3266.JPG DSCF3259.JPG DSCF3270.JPG


Both heat sinks had melted into the endbell and the brush hoods had moved too. Both springs were melted into the spring posts. The lead wires were nothing but cheap, old speaker wire and they were not even soldered. They were just twisted around the solder tabs. The whole inside was coated with oil and one pole on the armature appears totally burned up. The armature was also soaked in oil. This baby is going to have to be rewound. Here is what it all looked like after it was disassembled.

DSCF3271.JPG


Here is a close up of the bad armature.

DSCF3273.JPG


Armature being unwound... yuck!

DSCF3284.JPG


After all the wire was stripped off the rest of the parts came off.

DSCF3286.JPG


With the armature all stripped and disassembled, I next tackled the job of trying to save the endbell. I had some new Parma Deathstar brush hoods but because of their design I had to use the positive side out of two sets to give this endbell a more "traditional" look. I started the modification by cutting everything off of both sides of the endbell.

DSCF3275.JPG DSCF3274.JPG


Once everything was cut off, both sides were filled flat.

DSCF3281.JPG



Next I had to modify the brush hoods so that they would fit on the endbell properly. I had to cut and slightly narrow the brush hood base for a correct fit. The top part of the brush hood fit perfectly with no modifications. The original Mabuchi screw was reused to hold the upper part of the brush hood under the solder tab and a two millimeter screw with a turned down head and two millimeter eyelet were used for each spring post.

DSCF3277.JPG DSCF3283.JPG


And here is what it looks like when it is all together. Also here is the armature all cleaned up and ready to be wound. I have installed nylon insulators that resemble Champion's and a recycled Parma Deathstar comm. The endbell turned out pretty good, don't you think?!

DSCF3305.JPG


The next step is to make this bad boy armature run again. I am going to use a 42 year old roll of 99 #28 gauge red wire and my old but trusty La Ganke motor winder. How long has it been since we have been able to buy a roll of 99 magnet wire?

DSCF3358.JPG DSCF3362.JPG


I have gone to wind...

See you next time. Same bat time, same bat channel.
Doug Azary
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#57 Horsepower

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 11:18 PM

Doug, this is so cool I think I wet my self! :blush: :laugh2:
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#58 munter

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 03:55 AM

The endbell turned out pretty good, don't you think?!

I do think!

Doug, I have a few 26D's ranging from mint in box through to wrecks so I have picked up some tips here,thanks.
What other wind specs can you recommend?

regards
John

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#59 havlicek

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 06:14 AM

Great stuff Doug! I've used both Deathstar and older Mura endbell hardware on various Mabuchis also and you get the benefit of the larger brushes PLUS just flat-out better hardware. Good call! The Deathstar com is also particularly well suited to this application because of it's profile being so slim around the base. Space gets pretty tight up top on 26Ds because of the short endbell and stack and this com (besides being the right diameter for the new sized brushes) will allow as much space for wire as possible. This Champ will live again!

-john
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#60 Champion 507

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 03:55 AM

Gary, I think this motor is going to turn out good. I hope you like the finished product.

************************
JOHN WARREN QUOTE:

"What other wind specs can you recommend?"

************************
J.W., Since I had to rewind the arm, I counted the turns as I unwound it. From Mabuchi, these came with 75 turns of #30 wire. This motor is retaining it's stock magnets, so I can't get too crazy with the wind. I think 55 to 60 turns of #29 would be a nice first step. I'm putting 50 turns of #28 on this one. For #27 or #26 wire I would have to put a set of higher performance magnets in it such as Arcos or Mura's Magnums.

************************

JOHN HAVLICEK QUOTE:

"The Deathstar com is also particularly well suited to this application because of it's profile being so slim around the base".

************************

J.H., I thought of you when I chose this comm. I remember some of your 26D builds that you were commenting about limited winding space at the top of the arm due comm size. When I slid this Parma comm on I thought "lotsa room for wire up here". Besides, I wasn't building this thing to race again. It didn't need to turn 100,000 rpms. A Parma comm will do just fine for what I'm doing here. I guess we could call it a "Parmbuchi" or "Mabuchima" :wacko: :blink: Maybe not.

Thank you all for your nice comments.
Doug Azary
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#61 havlicek

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 06:12 AM

Hi Doug,

When I first started rewinding again, I got a bunch of similar coms (and arms) from Ron Hershman to experiment with. While they're skinny and don't look like much, I torture-tested them :) pretty well and never had one fail. Even these are a far cry from the original Mabuchi stuff it seems, but you could also fashion a com cap if you had the right material (some phenolic stock would be a good start)...but that would be a LOT of work unless you had a mini-lathe. You could also simply wrap the very tippy top of the com (after cleaning with super fine Scotchbrite) with kevlar thread, wrap masking tape around the com and epoxy the thread...a little fiddly, but a lot quicker. Still, I doubt you'd have any problems with those coms for Mabuchi builds. They seem just fine. As for the name...Chambupar :laugh2:

-john
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#62 Prof. Fate

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 05:24 PM

Hi

You are having fun....good!

Anyway, check that line and dark spot on the bearing housing. It if is what it looks like in the photos, this is where the endbell with fail. It works to pull the bearing, using a fine tip scribe or #11, and clean out whatever has gotten in, then flow a little epoxy into the thing from both sides. THEN remount the bearing.

Fate
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#63 havlicek

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 06:15 AM

OK Doug...I'm waiting for the results (which I bet are gonna be great!) of your 26D rewind on the edge of my seat! over here. This is freakin' cool!

-john
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#64 Champion 507

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 05:06 PM

Here we go with more "phun"!

Sorry I have been away for a few days. It is time to put the wraps on this old 601. When we left off previously the armature was ready to be rewound. I dug out some forty year old 28 gauge wire to wind this with. Amazingly the insulation coating is still very flexible. Having to take the old original blue wire off the armature enabled me to be able to count the number of turns Mabuchi put on this arm. These came from Japan with 75 turns of #30 wire. Not wanting to get too crazy with the rewind, considering this motor still has the stock magnets, I chose what I thought to be a conservative wind of 50 turns of #28. Here is what it looks like after it has been rewound, epoxied, the comm tied and trued.

DSCF3375.JPG


In preparation to balance this, with a felt tip pen I had labeled the poles A, B and C the way Champion used to; however, the armature would not stop in the same place twice on the razor blades so it did not need to be balanced!! I am sure if you were to put this on a dynamic balancing machine it would probably find a couple of issues but they would be small.

DSCF3376.JPG


Here is what everything looks like before we go back together with it.

DSCF3374.JPG


Here is what it looks like all assembled. I had one slightly used set of shunted 36D brushes and installed them on this motor. I thought it looked pretty cool! In running it after it was built, you can see it only draws 1.2 amps at five volts. This baby is fast and smooth and just barely gets warm. :) :D

DSCF3387.JPG DSCF3383.JPG DSCF3379.JPG


Compare the difference in the before and the after shots.

DSCF3259.JPG DSCF3383.JPG


Yea, the outside of the can is still rough but it sort of adds character to the motor. It is about the only thing that has not changed from the pile of junk that it was. The endbell and aramature have been made like new again. I am pleased with the results. I have another 26D in the on deck circle. I will have it up soon.

See you next time... same bat time... same bat channel
Doug Azary
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#65 TSR

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 05:11 PM

Doug, nice job! :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#66 havlicek

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 10:19 PM

Doug...VERY nice job! :wub: I'm looking at all the details as well as the wind which in itself looks like a really fine job. The epoxy, tieing and com truing look great too. Looks like you stayed fairly conservative on the advance as well and good call. It's GREAT to see someone else rewinding here and from the look of it, you haven't forgotten anything (which is more than I can say for myself!).

-john
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#67 Champion 507

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 11:08 PM

John,

I've wound a bunch of arms in the past year. They've all been for modern Parma and Slotworks 16D's but I've never posted any here on the blog. When I wind some more I'll post them.

Thank you both for your comments.
Doug Azary
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#68 havlicek

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 05:26 AM

Hi Doug,

Please do! I'm going to be sending you a little something extra with "the package" that I'm sure you'll be able to use ;)

In preparation to balance this, with a felt tip pen I had labeled the poles A, B and C the way Champion used to; however, the armature would not stop in the same place twice on the razor blades so it did not need to be balanced!!


You know, there are soooo many little details about tackling these motors that I'm shocked from time to time at how much the great winders of the past must have learned and known. Here's one that has come up a couple of times for me. Sometimes when an arm is balanced and seems to run a little rougher than you would expect...look at the tail spacer. Because the tail spacer rides against the can bearing/bushing, it can cause the arm to "micro oscillate" (for lack of a better term) or move back and forth really rapidly as it spins. Sometimes, just truing the tail spacer will noticeably help smooth out a motor that seems to run a bit rougher than it seems it should.

-john
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#69 Champion 507

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 07:18 AM

John,

I've sure had a number of arms over the years that had untrue tail spacers causing unwanted vibrations (boy, that could be taken several different ways :wacko: :blink: :crazy: :sarcastic_hand: ). Someone makes a truing gizmo that fixes that but I don't have one. Sometimes just changing washers between the back (or front of the motor) for that matter, will help smooth one out. I've had that happen too.

I was amazed this arm turned out so smoothly. After I had cleaned it up, I spun it by hand inside the can and endbell and it spun smoothly. I did the same after I wound it. Then I thought to myself, "self, if you get the epoxy on just right, this baby may not have to be balanced". I guess after you have done several hundred of these things over a span of 40 years, you're bound to do one smooth one and I guess this is the one.

One or both of the cheap factory ball bearings is a little noisy. I may replace them later.

Two big plusses for this crusty old girl are that it screams and the current draw is low. I gotta build a 4 1/2" inline brass rod chassis for this and put a 1969 Ford Torino or Mercury Cyclone body on it and run it on the Hillclimb track that's only 110 REAL miles away.

The good news is that a couple guys are going to open a new track in town, maybe by Thanksgiving. It will have an Ogilvie Blue King. That will double the number of tracks we have in this state to...2. Sweet!
Doug Azary
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#70 havlicek

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 07:27 AM

Hi Doug,

I know the gizmo you're talking about, they have a diamond face and slide over the shaft and you just turn the thing...I don't have one either :laugh2: I do have a way of doing it VERY crudely, but it's a little dangerous so I'll keep it to myself :) Once again, great job and I look forward to seeing more of your motor builds/rewinding posted here.

-john
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#71 Pablo

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 10:47 AM

"it's a little dangerous so I'll keep it to myself"

Whaddaya mean, "dangerous" ?
Everything you DO here is dangerous :P :ph34r: :crazy: :friends:
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#72 havlicek

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 12:03 PM

...not at all Pablo. I do all my work using robotic arms from behind a blast shield. :)

-john
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#73 Hworth08

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 12:58 PM

This is from Cheater's motor building article in the tech section where there is also a picture:

Using the Magnehone armature tool, face both the commutator end and the spacer end of the armature. Again, this reduces vibration by giving the arm spacers true surfaces to contact.
Don Hollingsworth

#74 Bill from NH

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 03:38 PM

The Magnehone brush hood alignment tool can be used for trueing the comm & tail spacer faces too. :)

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#75 Champion 507

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 10:08 PM

Yes sir, yes sir, we are having "phun" now!

Of all the Mabuchi motors K&B imported from Japan only the 26D did not have a yellow painted can and white endbell. Their 26Ds came with a nickel plated can and yellow endbell. The motor we are doing this time around, to me, looks more in line with the rest of their motors. I stripped the can and painted it bright yellow and this has one of those 26D endbell kits from REH that I purchased a number of years ago. It has the Champion brush holders and bushing but it has Mura brush hoods and generic Phillips screws. The armature I am putting in this is an NOS French #25 silver wire.

DSCF3415.JPG


After I painted the can, since the endbell tabs were broken off, I had to drill holes and counter sink them for the flathead screws used to hold on the endbell.

DSCF3414.JPG


Here is everything ready to go prior to assembly.

DSCF3419.JPG


The motor runs great and only pulls one amp at 5 volts.

DSCF3420.JPG


The lead wires came from a Plafit Cheetah several years ago. They are similar to the red and blue wires that came on K&B motors years ago. Here is the motor all assembled and ready to go. The blue wire is actually darker than it appears in the pictures.

DSCF3421.JPG DSCF3432.JPG DSCF3433.JPG


To me this is how K&B's 26Ds should have looked years ago, but obviously I was not included in the decision making process. :laugh2: The spring post protectors are from Mura. The brushes are NOS Mabuchi and I think the springs are Champion. All in all I was pretty happy with the way this motor turned out. Basically it is a piece together job but I think it looks rather handsome.

Next time we are going to do something completely different.

Stay tuned... same bat time... same bat channel
Doug Azary
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"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
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#76 Jeff Easterly

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 12:52 AM

AWESOME !!!!! :shok:
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Power is coming on... NOW!!!

#77 havlicek

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 06:25 AM

To me this is how K&B's 26Ds should have looked years ago


I couldn't agree more Doug ...but they didn't ask me either :laugh2: I always was attracted to the K&B motors when I was a kid (just as Don Siegel), especially the Wildcat, so it's neat to see a 26D dressed-up in K&B Screaming Yellow. At a current draw of only around an amp, there's still wiggle room to do stronger springs and magnets and probably not go into auto-melt mode with the motor should you ever decide to. As it stands right now though, you should have a strong runner that stays pretty cool to boot! If you can ever get a hold of a K&B Sticker, that would be the bee's knees to top off such a lovely motor! Great job!

-john
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#78 havlicek

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 06:27 AM

...danged double post :blink:

-john
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#79 Champion 507

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 08:57 AM

Yeah John, I've kept my eye open for a K&B sticker for a few years now, but no luck. But as we all know "we offer prompt service no matter how long it takes". Heck, I gathered parts on and off for 20 years to build a Monogram 1958 Thunderbird over on another thread. Based on that, I still have another 15 years or so to find a sticker :laugh2:

I have some really exciting builds coming up in the next week. Please stay tuned...

Thank you guys for the compliments.
Doug Azary
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#80 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 09:01 PM

Doug, great thread man. I love the Bobcat 26D :wub: . Between you and John you bring back a lot of fond memories of all the time I spent building these motors. Carry on, gentlemen....carry on....

Michael Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 10:14 PM

Thanks, Michael. :good:

As I say at the beginning of each build post, I'm having "phun". There are some awesome builders here on the blog. I joined less than a year ago and already I've learned stuff and want to learn more. If someone enjoys something I've done, then it makes it all worthwhile. :)

Stay tuned to this thread...I've got some neat goodies on the way. ;)
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#82 don.siegel

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 04:16 AM

Amen - a very enjoyable thread. And there's something about those K&B motors.... As John mentioned, I have a soft spot for the K&B, since the one winning motor I wound in the 60s was based on a Wildcat 16D...

You know, until you mentioned it I hadn't really thought of the fact that K&B changed their color scheme for the 26D, so I'm glad you've corrected that!

Excellent job on this motor, and I'm very impressed that you've got a 25 arm drawing only an amp...

Don

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 07:01 AM

Thanks Don. If memory serves me correctly almost all 26D motors had plated cans except for orange Classics and purple AMT/Dynamics. The K&B 26D had the only yellow Mabuchi endbell I ever saw.
Doug Azary
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#84 Prof. Fate

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:01 PM

Hi

I need to go prowl the boxes! I THOUGHT I had a 26d in yellow!

on the other hand, I don't remember seeing the AMT 26d!

Sigh.

Or perhaps..

I think I told you all about a local racer looking at one of my newly restored Dynamics. The short version is that in the day in home racing, the stock motor was too much and the commerical trcks weren't running hotter 1/32s! Anyway, so my dynamics all got older 16ds than stock for the milder arms. Using Russkit 22 and 23 cans but with the 32s winds. Anyway, So, running the cars, racing with a friend with one. Local track owner and serious racer (but not serious enough to allow anything but modern plastic stock) said "what is is FOR?" And had no idea what WE were talking about with "having fun.

Chasing down spares for these old things can get expensive and no race program, we must be idiots!

Fate
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Posted 12 October 2009 - 12:35 AM

Rocky or anybody,

It seems to me that most all the pros stayed away from the 26D sized motors. But yet, the 26D could have possibly been one of the best motors ever produced for local level racing, particularly among those of us who were teens at the time? I've read story after story (and written a few myself) about how great this little motor performed and all for only $3.00!
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#86 Prof. Fate

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 12:00 PM

Hi

doug, it was all about the rules!

In 65, I spent the summer with my folks driving around the country. They were visting friedns and such, and I was hitting tracks. Big motors ruled but the tracks usually had some sort of tire rule that looked like 1" rears and 7/8ths fronts. As "the pros' weren't really the customer, but the kids with RTRs and modified RTRs and the popularity of "thingies", the rules were changed to allow some of the Oring, mini wheels and so on thingies to be "legal".

For those of us running in the big races for MONEY, we abused those rules like crazy. For ME, the 26d was a few months one summer until the Hemi and Russkit 23 came out. In the big motor period, the problem with the Russkit 22/sp510 X was the magnets and endbell limited the winds. I built a few small cars for fun, Lotus 7s and the like, but the serious racers were big motors where I could get a lot of horsepower, more than enough.

The smaller 16ds could with a low roll center, not really have much an advantage because of the big scale tire rules. With "thingie" wheels suddenly smaller motors with the lower center had an advantage. With the 26s, 3 bucks, good buy for a kid. For a "pro", though, it was the endbell, (swap out the Pitcan). With the Hemi and better 16d size magnets, and the rules allows 7/8 rear, 3/4 fronts, suddenly the 26d was too tall!

With better magnets, little wheels better endbells and so on, suddenly you could get serious horsepower out of 16d size frankenmotors.

The beginning of the end? could be, "frankenmotors" that would put you in the A or B were expensive.

I remember being shocked by the price of the 36d "707" motor, yet a couple years later, people were paying a lot more for 16d frankemotors!

Fate
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Posted 13 October 2009 - 01:46 AM

Are we having "phun" or what?

As promised, here's something completely different. I got this motor in a trade with a bunch of stuff recently. There were no labels on it, no cooling holes in the can, it didn't hardly run, but it was hardly used.

DSCF3399.JPG


It's the same size as the Falcon 7 or Dokk's TSRF motors.

DSCF3401.JPG


Here's what it looks like all apart. I had already unwound the arm. It had a bizillion turns of "mosquito hair" wire on it. No wonder it didn't perform very well. Probably made for 3 to 6 volt operation.

DSCF3402.JPG


Here is the arm ready to be wound. I liked the comm on this...certainly appears to be superior to some other similar motors of this size.

DSCF3405.JPG


65 turns of #30 is on a Falcon 7 and 95 turns of #31 in on another motor in this size, so I wanted to do something in between. I chose 70 turns of #31. Here it is all wound and balanced. None of these motors appear to be epoxied, so I didn't epoxy mine either.

DSCF3407.JPG


Next, I had to make some air holes for this thing to breathe. HELPFUL HINT: As you grind down a Dremel abrasive cutting disc, before you break it, and it's at least 50% or more worn down, replace it with a new one. Keep the small one so the next time you have to cut a small hole or work in a small area, you'll have a small disc to get in there.

DSCF3410.JPG


Here it is all assembled and the new cooling holes cut. As much as I liked the comm in this motor, I disliked the brushes. I had to "dink" with them for about 20 minuted to get them where the motor would run properly.

DSCF3412.JPG


As you can see it draws just a little over 1/2 amp at 7 volts and runs very cool and smooth.

DSCF3411.JPG


I couldn't just call the motor done even though it was finished. I was just sitting at my desk when i looked off to the side and saw the TSRF motor sitting there with the "TSRF made in China" label on it. Then I thought, TSRF backwards is FRST which almost spells first. Then I thought, I didn't make the motor but I made it better and I live in Oklahoma...and what you see here is my new motor label. NOW the motor is finished or done or half baked or... :sarcastic_hand: :wacko2: :shok:

DSCF3500.JPG


Dokk, the label on the side of your motor gave me the inspiration to "finish" it. :laugh2:

Next time we gather around the camp fire I'll show you a couple modern 16D's that have been "kicked up a notch".

See you next time...same bat time...same bat channel.
Doug Azary
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#88 havlicek

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 05:53 AM

Ha! "Great minds think alike"...or..."a mind is a terrible thing to waste" :D Doug, this kind of thing is exactly in the spirit of the 60's and the motor madmen that were rewinding every motor they could get their hands on, even those anemic DOA 13UO 'Buchis. :laugh2: It's also a great example of how, once you tear these things apart and figure out what's going on, they all work pretty much the same. If you can get one, the SCX motors (42, 42B, and the other variants) are PRIME candidates for rewinding Doug. They have very good magnets, an honest-to-gosh endbell that actually makes sense, and a nice arm in there with a good com. A #29 wind...even a #28 is no problem at all in those motors and will perform surprisingly well. I had done some for a blogger who gave them both "shakeouts" of several hundred laps on his track to see how well they would hold up. I think they're around $12 new and there are certainly used ones around that are often discarded. Anyway, cool build Doug!

-john
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#89 wilbor56

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 09:52 AM

jonh in one of the photos i see that you have a jig for holding the arm while you wind it any idea where i can find one of these would sure save my fingers.

bill from nj
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#90 havlicek

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 11:44 AM

Hi Bill,

I made most of that winder, but the beautiful brass clamping fixture is one of two that were given to me by a blogger (thanks Dave!). I also have another similar one that Rick (RGEO) made that's the whole thing...clamping fixture, crank and stand ready to put in a vise or mount on a base. That one alternates between 26D and 36D arms because I have clamping fixtures for those sizes as well. Ask Rick for one of his brand spankin' new ones in 16D size and you'll be very happy! If he doesn't make them anymore, look for an old LaGanke winder as these are all based on those.

-john
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#91 Prof. Fate

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 12:35 PM

Hi

The "stock" wind on the FKs can start at ........ghasp, 300 turns of 36! In the FC and FA and FK cans, for a couple decades now, the standard industrial motors start there and for various applicatons get less wire to make spec. Anyway, I have seen 300 down to 160 turns of 36 before they switch to a bigger wire!

The 13uo franken motors, in the day, we usually turned down the early C can endbells to fit in the early 70s with cobalts. In the mid 70s, the brits started casting to size aftermarket endbells for these motors. Impossible to find these days, sadly. But in 73 with cobalts running locally, I had a 13uo with a 25s. I would have gone hotter, but the two local tracks were a black and an orange, and more horsepower was "overkill"..in fact, my fastest cars only used 27s. But with cobalts and good endbells, the size of the motor was an advantage.

Fate
Rocky Russo
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Posted 13 October 2009 - 12:41 PM

HAVLICEK QUOTE:

"...the motor madmen that were rewinding every motor they could motor they could get their hands on..."

________________________________________________________________________________

John,

You're describing me to a "T". Back in the day, I would have rewound a horse shoe if I thought it would get closer to the stake. :laugh2:
Doug Azary
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#93 Phil Irvin

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 05:57 PM

Hi Bill,

I made most of that winder, but the beautiful brass clamping fixture is one of two that were given to me by a blogger (thanks Dave!). I also have another similar one that Rick (RGEO) made that's the whole thing...clamping fixture, crank and stand ready to put in a vise or mount on a base. That one alternates between 26D and 36D arms because I have clamping fixtures for those sizes as well. Ask Rick for one of his brand spankin' new ones in 16D size and you'll be very happy! If he doesn't make them anymore, look for an old LaGanke winder as these are all based on those.

-john


I am the original owner of my LaGanke and will not part with it...Thank You.. :wub: Your gonna have to twist Ricks arm but his are nice. I usta use my Dremel with the smaller collet till I went hi $$ (back in the 60s) for the LaGanke and never looked back!

PHIL I.

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 12:50 AM

Phil,

My LaGanke and I go back to 1965 too.
Doug Azary
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#95 HarV Wallbanger III

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 12:36 PM

Hey Doug looks like one of them thar proverbial toothbrush motors as Pete Zimmerman calls'em!
Now made better in OK! These FK cans come in many ways longer and shorter. I have a longer one that did come out of a toothbrush! Good job Doug, you should enter our Frank'enMotor race in Feb with one.

Little_puke_1.jpg

Barney Poynor
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Hello my name is Barney and I was... I am addicted to glue, magnets, and wings... I have been clean and sober years now... NOW I'm hooked on 1/32 club track racing! Dang!
 

"Even if you're on the Right Track, you'll get run over if you just sit there!"

If you remember
screw-on braid, motors that look like padlocks, that dang fuse wire in Cox controllers, "hand" painted bodies, the very first can motors from Mabuchi, and the smell of wintergreen then you are OLD!... like me!

Enjoy life! Race Slot Cars and read SlotBlog!


#96 HarV Wallbanger III

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 03:36 PM

Somewhere in this post somebody said something about the comm getting in the way... we wound without the comm and just pigtailed the wires, then installed the comm. We would nick the shaft before winding with a dremel and then slide the comm down with a little epoxy on it and just like Johns spring post cuts it keyed the comm to the shaft. Set timing then wrap the comm to further lock it.

Back when I helped Mura years ago design their then new motor Woody would spark the shaft with the welder before setting the comms and lock it that way as wrapping and epoxy would lock it on finish.

I have been trying to find one of my old G-Plus HO drag arms to show you guys that they looked like. They looked as if they were wound with coat hanger! :o I used 29 ga. wire and we would only get 1-2 passes before either blowing the comm. or wearing it out (with the key tumbler springs we had to use) The strongest BSRT springs in the 70's would just act like a fuse so we took apart auto lock tumblers and found springs that would fit the brush tubes and cut them down to fit.

We would show up at a Drag Day monthly race with a couple of handfuls of arms to try to make the last runs! Pancake motors would spark and arc all the way down the track and really put on a show! :laugh2: We never could get enough spring tension on them...

Barney Poynor
"BRONCO" BARNEY
Team CORT!

Hello my name is Barney and I was... I am addicted to glue, magnets, and wings... I have been clean and sober years now... NOW I'm hooked on 1/32 club track racing! Dang!
 

"Even if you're on the Right Track, you'll get run over if you just sit there!"

If you remember
screw-on braid, motors that look like padlocks, that dang fuse wire in Cox controllers, "hand" painted bodies, the very first can motors from Mabuchi, and the smell of wintergreen then you are OLD!... like me!

Enjoy life! Race Slot Cars and read SlotBlog!


#97 Prof. Fate

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 12:56 PM

Hi

And wasn't it FUN!

Fate
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Posted 15 October 2009 - 02:39 PM

And we'll have "phun" "phun" "phun"...

Last time, I promised a couple modern 16D's that have been "kicked up a notch". Due to racing rules and regs nowadays, you pretty much have to run sealed, tagged or otherwise specific motors for specific classes...that is except bracket drag racing. There the field is WIDE open and a place that a rewinder/motor builder can aggressively persue the goal of getting to the finish line first. These two motors are not the fastest I've ever built but they look cool, run great and are definitely a HUGE step up from stock as you'll see. Here's the first motor:

DSCF3472.JPG


This motor was in pieces as part of a large trade I did about a year ago. I think it was a FastOnes or Slotworks at one time. Any way, the endbell only had a bushing in it...the brush hoods, springs and everything else had been removed. I emailed Ron Hershman and he said he did not sell endbell hardware separately. But Parma does. With just a little bit of fiddling the Parma hardware fits right on. You have to narrow the nose of the endbell slightly where Parma's brush hood base makes the "L" bend and you have to remove the inner halves of plastic shoulders that center the brush hood base to the endbell because Parma's screw spacing is just a cat whisker farther apart than the Slotworks. Screws and springs drop right on. Here's what a Slotworks arm looks like after it has been stripped of it's wire and has been cleaned up.


DSCF3471.JPG


Today's stock 16D motors come with 70 turns of #30 wire. Radio Shack sells a 3 pack of magnet wire in different colors and sizes. In the package you'll find a roll of bright red #30, a roll of green #28 and Bill from NH's favorite #22. Just ask him about his 15 turns of #22 motors he's built over the years. :laugh2: Ok, I decided to go with the red #30 (since the endbell was red) and only put on 50 turns and here's what it looks like after winding, epoxying and comm truing. In keeping with the red theme I gave it a coating of Lucky Bob's red armature dye. This motor has actually been assembled and broken in for 30 minutes. I only took it apart when I decided to do this post. Now I get to break it in all over again. :blink: I wouldn't recommend this wind for road racing. Because most drag races only last a second or so, heat shouldn't be a factor here hence you can get away with "short winding" an arm.

DSCF3468.JPG


I also kicked the timing up a bunch too. Stock is around 20...this one is at least 35.

DSCF3469.JPG


Here are all the parts prior to reassembly

DSCF3466.JPG


...and the finished product

DSCF3472.JPG


It looks good and runs good. It might even give a stock Super 16D a good run in a heads up race.

Next, we'll move on to a Parma Deathstar that's had a little more done to it. The stack length of a modern stock 16D is .600". For this motor I wanted to build a short stack. I removed 10 laminations (steel plates) and added some spacers at the end of the arm and between the stack and comm to make up for the loss in length. A stock stripped Parma arm appears in front while the shortened, rewound, epoxied and balanced one appears in the back.

DSCF3489.JPG



This one got the same #30 red wire but because of the shorter stack length I put 60 turns on it. 60 turns of #30 has been around since 1965 and that's also why I chose it...for old times' sake.

DSCF3483.JPG


Here we are ready for re-assembly. Just as the motor above, I had disassembled this one for this post. The endbell was originally pink. I don't like pink endbells. This one and others got totally disassembled and dunked in a batch of Rit dye and simmered at very low heat in a pan on a stove for about 30 minutes. I like the way it and the others turned out. The can got a couple coats of Krylon wrinkle black spray paint from a rattle can. I removed the magnets, cleaned them and set them aside. Next, I cleaned the inside and outside of the can with an old toothbrush and solvent. One of those scotchbrite type wheels chucked in a Dremel was used to scuff up the outside of the can. I then masked off the oilite bushing, put the can in a holder and painted it. It then got put in my little toaster oven (used for hobbies only - NO FOOD) and baked for 30 minuted at 150. The magnets were then re-installed. If you look closely at the brushes you will see an L and an R on then. I do that so if I ever take the motor apart I can put the brushes back in the same way as they came out.

DSCF3475.JPG


All dressed up and ready to go...

DSCF3473.JPG


See, if this thing had a pink endbell and a plated can, you probably wouldn't have looked at it for more than 5 seconds. It has been transformed in both looks and performance. I hope you enjoyed these two mills. Good looking and good running motors don't have to be limited the old stuff. Thanks for viewing.

The next time we gather in the parking lot (looking for Dokk and his motors :laugh2: ), I'll show you something sweeeeeeeet.

See you then...same bat time... same bat channel
Doug Azary
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#99 HarV Wallbanger III

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 06:29 PM

Bat Bitchen Dude! Keep it up!

Barney Poynor
"BRONCO" BARNEY
Team CORT!

Hello my name is Barney and I was... I am addicted to glue, magnets, and wings... I have been clean and sober years now... NOW I'm hooked on 1/32 club track racing! Dang!
 

"Even if you're on the Right Track, you'll get run over if you just sit there!"

If you remember
screw-on braid, motors that look like padlocks, that dang fuse wire in Cox controllers, "hand" painted bodies, the very first can motors from Mabuchi, and the smell of wintergreen then you are OLD!... like me!

Enjoy life! Race Slot Cars and read SlotBlog!


#100 havlicek

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 07:20 PM

...another great job Doug. The D cans are really familiar lookin' when you crack 'em open. If you get a chance to mess with one, the SCX 42/42B and other similar motors are a real trip and also have really nice magnets. 50-55T/#29 and the darned things wake right up. A little fiddling and you can even stick a C-can endbell on there. Keep it up!

-john
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