Motor shop
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Champion 507
, Sep 15 2009 10:22 PM
242 replies to this topic
#101
Bill from NH
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Posted 15 October 2009 - 07:52 PM
Doug, if you still got 10' of that Rat Shack 22, send it to PDL. It's easier for him to wind.
Bill Fernald
I intend to live forever! So far, so good.
I intend to live forever! So far, so good.
#102
Champion 507
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Posted 15 October 2009 - 10:02 PM
Thanks Barney and John. It's a little easier working with these newer motors because if you mess something up, it's no big deal. At times some people around the local track usually have a motor or two that they no longer want and sometimes they'll just give them to you or sell them cheap. If you mess up a vintage part sometimes it can be costly to repair or replace.
In the automotive hobby they call it a restomod where someone takes a car (usually made in the 1960's) and updates it with a more modern engine, transmission and chassis components but the body still retains most of the outside stock appearance. We can do that with our vintage motors where we grab some newer parts such as brush hoods, magnets, etc. from current motors and update old Mabuchi stuff. You get the outside appearance of an old vintage motor but now it has all the performance and endurance of a modern mill. I always liked that word "mill".
In the automotive hobby they call it a restomod where someone takes a car (usually made in the 1960's) and updates it with a more modern engine, transmission and chassis components but the body still retains most of the outside stock appearance. We can do that with our vintage motors where we grab some newer parts such as brush hoods, magnets, etc. from current motors and update old Mabuchi stuff. You get the outside appearance of an old vintage motor but now it has all the performance and endurance of a modern mill. I always liked that word "mill".
Doug Azary
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
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"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
#103
Hworth08
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Posted 16 October 2009 - 10:40 AM
Reading Doug's post about his wire choices I started wondering if there was ever a pattern or reason why a winder would change wire gage and number of turns.
At what point would 60 turns of 29 perform better than 50 t. of 30 and so forth. Of course a lot of factors are in play but I wonder if anyone remembers their theories?
At what point would 60 turns of 29 perform better than 50 t. of 30 and so forth. Of course a lot of factors are in play but I wonder if anyone remembers their theories?
Don Hollingsworth
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#104
Champion 507
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Posted 16 October 2009 - 11:39 AM
Don,
While I know a little tiny bit about motor theory I will attempt to convey my thought process on why I chose a particular wind. Again, I wish I had the electromechanical expertise that some people have like Ron Hershman, Dan from ProSlot, Rudy from Slick 7 and MANY others but I don't. I always try to do the best with what I have until I learn something new or I obtain better tools or supplies.
Don, you're prophetic.
My next motor will have 60 turns of #29 on it. Without giving that one away yet I will explain why I chose the wind in that post. As far as 50 turns of #30, here goes: Modern stock 16D's come from the factory with 70 turns of #30. Since I was going to make a drag motor out of this, I wanted a lighter weight armature that would spin up faster. I figured 20 less turns per pole would be less weight and less electrical resistance which should mean higher rpm. In addition, passes on a drag strip last about a second. Heat shouldn't be a factor because it's not being run lap after lap as it would be on a road course. On the short stack arm where I put 60 turns of #30 here was my thought: Without doing any calculating or measuring, I figured putting 60 turns of #30 on a shorter stack might almost be the same amount of wire as 50 turns would be on a long stack. Plus I did it for old times' sake. In 1965 Mura, Lenz and French put 60 turns of #30 on their early rewind versions of the Russkit 23 and that's why I put that wind on this arm.
While I know a little tiny bit about motor theory I will attempt to convey my thought process on why I chose a particular wind. Again, I wish I had the electromechanical expertise that some people have like Ron Hershman, Dan from ProSlot, Rudy from Slick 7 and MANY others but I don't. I always try to do the best with what I have until I learn something new or I obtain better tools or supplies.
Don, you're prophetic.
My next motor will have 60 turns of #29 on it. Without giving that one away yet I will explain why I chose the wind in that post. As far as 50 turns of #30, here goes: Modern stock 16D's come from the factory with 70 turns of #30. Since I was going to make a drag motor out of this, I wanted a lighter weight armature that would spin up faster. I figured 20 less turns per pole would be less weight and less electrical resistance which should mean higher rpm. In addition, passes on a drag strip last about a second. Heat shouldn't be a factor because it's not being run lap after lap as it would be on a road course. On the short stack arm where I put 60 turns of #30 here was my thought: Without doing any calculating or measuring, I figured putting 60 turns of #30 on a shorter stack might almost be the same amount of wire as 50 turns would be on a long stack. Plus I did it for old times' sake. In 1965 Mura, Lenz and French put 60 turns of #30 on their early rewind versions of the Russkit 23 and that's why I put that wind on this arm.
Doug Azary
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
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"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
#105
Prof. Fate
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Posted 16 October 2009 - 01:10 PM
Hi
The one can with the "X" strap is the trinity/slotworks that came out in the early 90s. When it came out, on saturday, on the local track, some of us were renting time on saturday and having "retro" races. Anyway, as our surviving period motors were maintanence nightmares, we looked for a solution. What my equipment told me was that the Trinity super 16d with its 28 wind was within a tiny percent the SAME as the 68/69 surviving pro motors we had in our cars. a little milder on the wind but that would reduce keeping them running.
But the weight, magnets and so on were right there. So, we agreed to use THOSE trinity and parma supers as our motor for our races which were getting more and more agressive.
Later, my first time at BP for a convention, I was playing with one of the cars and Mike Steube was watching and started talking about "the day". I handed him the car, my F1, and he pulled the trigger.....stopped and said "I had forgotten how much power we used to run in them!"...grinning and started cracking off hot laps with it!
Faster than my "hot" laps, of course.
When we were first talking about retro, I said I favored those D can super 16ds because, mechanically, they were "work alikes" for the motors of the day.
Anyway, both came with several different arms. There were actually two arms with 30s winds, one was the long stack you had, and "parma rules" legal, and a shorter arm much like your re-build. The long was usually72/30, the short usually 65/30. THEN, if it had green coating on the stack and balencing, the wind was 55/28(I think!).
The magnets measured the same as my arcos. But the thing is that the bushings wear out in 3 or 4 hours of track time, but are still replaceable!
Fate
The one can with the "X" strap is the trinity/slotworks that came out in the early 90s. When it came out, on saturday, on the local track, some of us were renting time on saturday and having "retro" races. Anyway, as our surviving period motors were maintanence nightmares, we looked for a solution. What my equipment told me was that the Trinity super 16d with its 28 wind was within a tiny percent the SAME as the 68/69 surviving pro motors we had in our cars. a little milder on the wind but that would reduce keeping them running.
But the weight, magnets and so on were right there. So, we agreed to use THOSE trinity and parma supers as our motor for our races which were getting more and more agressive.
Later, my first time at BP for a convention, I was playing with one of the cars and Mike Steube was watching and started talking about "the day". I handed him the car, my F1, and he pulled the trigger.....stopped and said "I had forgotten how much power we used to run in them!"...grinning and started cracking off hot laps with it!
Faster than my "hot" laps, of course.
When we were first talking about retro, I said I favored those D can super 16ds because, mechanically, they were "work alikes" for the motors of the day.
Anyway, both came with several different arms. There were actually two arms with 30s winds, one was the long stack you had, and "parma rules" legal, and a shorter arm much like your re-build. The long was usually72/30, the short usually 65/30. THEN, if it had green coating on the stack and balencing, the wind was 55/28(I think!).
The magnets measured the same as my arcos. But the thing is that the bushings wear out in 3 or 4 hours of track time, but are still replaceable!
Fate
Rocky Russo
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Requiescat in Pace
3/6/48-1/1/12
Requiescat in Pace
#106
Champion 507
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Posted 17 October 2009 - 04:00 PM
Ok, we're really gonna have some "phun" now!
I've been planning to do this motor for some time now. So it was time to "git 'er done". A duplicate or reproduction means basically a carbon copy of something. A replica means you get the looks and "flavor" of something but it is not a carbon copy. Today we're going to make a replica of a Champion 507 endbell drive. Here's what we're starting with: A Revell SP80 can, NOS brushes and springs, an almost NOS Mabuchi endbell, and a reproduction 507 label. During the build the NOS French magnets weren't working out so I replaced them with a set of 1968 Mabuchi 16D magnets. They worked out great and are nice and strong. The armature started out in this world inside a Parma Deathstar. After it ran it's life out, I stripped all the wire off, cleaned it up with a wire brush chucked in a Dremel, punched the shaft thru to made an endbell drive out of it, glued on red Mabuchi fiber insulators and added an NOS 22ยบ CCW Tradeship comm. There were three reasons I chose the Revell can; (1) the can was in great shape, (2) it had only been disassembled once so the endbell retaining tabs should be good enough to hold it all together when it gets finished and (3) the silver paint is easy to strip and repainting it should be a breeze.
Since we're not using the stock Mabuchi magnets the 2 little retainers in the bottom of the can needed to be flattened out. Not wanting to leave marks in the can from the flattening process, I've modified a set of cheap pliers and ground off the grooves at the end of the jaws.
After a couple of good hard squeezes the tabs are flattened out with no tooling marks even in the paint!
Now it was time to strip the paint. A scotchbrite type wheel in a Dremel made pretty quick work of this.
Since I was only making a replica I thought my can of Krylon Ford engine blue would work just fine...but nooooo. I couldn't find it. I gave up looking for it and went to a Wal Mart less than 2 miles away. Upon arrival in the paint section I saw this can of Krylon navy blue and thought "wow, this is awfully close to Hawk/Champion blue...and it was"!!! Two worlds apart and over 40 years later these two blues are virtually identical. An original 507 is in front while the newly repainted one is next to the can. You can't get much closer than that.
Here's everything ready to go back together. Yes, Don Hollingsworth, I chose 60 turns of #29 wire for this one and here's why: This wire is very similar in color to what Champion used on some of their 507's. Since this armature has a thin web there is room for more wire to be wound. 50 turns of #29 would make a great arm but I was wanting to play it a little conservative because the motor was going to have a nice minty original endbell and I didn't want to mess it up with a hotter wind, so I chose 60 turns. I don't have a bench grinder so I used a sanding drum chucked in a Dremel to remove the unwanted material necessary to balance the arm and it didn't take much at all.
It only pulls .8 of an amp at 7 volts and sounds healthy and smooth.
The labels for these early Champions were all made out of foil as evidenced by this 503.
Since I don't have any foil labels I had to use a paper label instead. But I'm only making a replica not a duplicate. "She's real heaven my 507"
Thanks for viewing.
See you next time...same bat time...same bat channel.
I've been planning to do this motor for some time now. So it was time to "git 'er done". A duplicate or reproduction means basically a carbon copy of something. A replica means you get the looks and "flavor" of something but it is not a carbon copy. Today we're going to make a replica of a Champion 507 endbell drive. Here's what we're starting with: A Revell SP80 can, NOS brushes and springs, an almost NOS Mabuchi endbell, and a reproduction 507 label. During the build the NOS French magnets weren't working out so I replaced them with a set of 1968 Mabuchi 16D magnets. They worked out great and are nice and strong. The armature started out in this world inside a Parma Deathstar. After it ran it's life out, I stripped all the wire off, cleaned it up with a wire brush chucked in a Dremel, punched the shaft thru to made an endbell drive out of it, glued on red Mabuchi fiber insulators and added an NOS 22ยบ CCW Tradeship comm. There were three reasons I chose the Revell can; (1) the can was in great shape, (2) it had only been disassembled once so the endbell retaining tabs should be good enough to hold it all together when it gets finished and (3) the silver paint is easy to strip and repainting it should be a breeze.
Since we're not using the stock Mabuchi magnets the 2 little retainers in the bottom of the can needed to be flattened out. Not wanting to leave marks in the can from the flattening process, I've modified a set of cheap pliers and ground off the grooves at the end of the jaws.
After a couple of good hard squeezes the tabs are flattened out with no tooling marks even in the paint!
Now it was time to strip the paint. A scotchbrite type wheel in a Dremel made pretty quick work of this.
Since I was only making a replica I thought my can of Krylon Ford engine blue would work just fine...but nooooo. I couldn't find it. I gave up looking for it and went to a Wal Mart less than 2 miles away. Upon arrival in the paint section I saw this can of Krylon navy blue and thought "wow, this is awfully close to Hawk/Champion blue...and it was"!!! Two worlds apart and over 40 years later these two blues are virtually identical. An original 507 is in front while the newly repainted one is next to the can. You can't get much closer than that.
Here's everything ready to go back together. Yes, Don Hollingsworth, I chose 60 turns of #29 wire for this one and here's why: This wire is very similar in color to what Champion used on some of their 507's. Since this armature has a thin web there is room for more wire to be wound. 50 turns of #29 would make a great arm but I was wanting to play it a little conservative because the motor was going to have a nice minty original endbell and I didn't want to mess it up with a hotter wind, so I chose 60 turns. I don't have a bench grinder so I used a sanding drum chucked in a Dremel to remove the unwanted material necessary to balance the arm and it didn't take much at all.
It only pulls .8 of an amp at 7 volts and sounds healthy and smooth.
The labels for these early Champions were all made out of foil as evidenced by this 503.
Since I don't have any foil labels I had to use a paper label instead. But I'm only making a replica not a duplicate. "She's real heaven my 507"
Thanks for viewing.
See you next time...same bat time...same bat channel.
Doug Azary
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
#107
havlicek
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Posted 17 October 2009 - 06:36 PM
Hi Doug,
Another handsome motor! I think you're gonna need a signature for these things...maybe a "Motorshop" sticker or something. The Parma arms are a great choice for these motors and I really like the paint. It looks sharp with the white endbell
-john
Another handsome motor! I think you're gonna need a signature for these things...maybe a "Motorshop" sticker or something. The Parma arms are a great choice for these motors and I really like the paint. It looks sharp with the white endbell
-john
John Havlicek
#108
Slotgeezer
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Posted 17 October 2009 - 06:58 PM
Doug...
VERY sano-looking motor....
I'm partial to the 65T of #30... plenty of "pep", but real looow on heat, for vintage endbells...
Great job... I agree w/ John, you need a "rebuilt by" sticker...
Take care...
Jeff Easterly
VERY sano-looking motor....
I'm partial to the 65T of #30... plenty of "pep", but real looow on heat, for vintage endbells...
Great job... I agree w/ John, you need a "rebuilt by" sticker...
Take care...
Jeff Easterly
Jeff Easterly - Capt., Team Wheezer...
Asst. Mechanic, Team Zombie...
Power is coming on... NOW!!!
#109
Hworth08
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Posted 18 October 2009 - 09:58 AM
Krylon should rename their paint to Hawk Blue. That shade is near exact for the 507 motors that Champion made from the left-over Hawk motors!
Those stack ground arms are pretty in a way. Wonder how many times Champion nicked the wire while grinding them?
I checked the Auto World catalogue again and 60 turns of 30 is what they show as a 3 volt arm so 60 of 29 is right in the ball park.
Those stack ground arms are pretty in a way. Wonder how many times Champion nicked the wire while grinding them?
I checked the Auto World catalogue again and 60 turns of 30 is what they show as a 3 volt arm so 60 of 29 is right in the ball park.
Don Hollingsworth
11/6/54-2/13/18
Requiescat in Pace
11/6/54-2/13/18
Requiescat in Pace
#110
Horsepower
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Posted 18 October 2009 - 01:57 PM
Doug, that is a motor I can LOVE! That's really in the spirit of vintage when you can basically duplicate a motor of the 60's with all replacement parts and paint. Nice job! 
Gary Stelter
My life fades, the vison dims. All that remains are memories... from The Road Warrior
My life fades, the vison dims. All that remains are memories... from The Road Warrior
#111
Champion 507
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Posted 18 October 2009 - 02:16 PM
John, Jeff, Don and Gary,
Thank you all for your comments. Don, I've also wondered if the balancing guys at Champion got a little too close to the windings with the bench grinder. Years ago when all I had was a flat file, I nicked a few myself. I also had a hand crank drill and a few times I tried to drill balance one, my bit went sliding off into the windings. For me, filing was the lesser of 2 evils.
Thank you all for your comments. Don, I've also wondered if the balancing guys at Champion got a little too close to the windings with the bench grinder. Years ago when all I had was a flat file, I nicked a few myself. I also had a hand crank drill and a few times I tried to drill balance one, my bit went sliding off into the windings. For me, filing was the lesser of 2 evils.
Doug Azary
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
#112
Champion 507
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Posted 23 October 2009 - 08:03 AM
After weighing and considering many things I have decided to close Motorshop.
To all of you who posted comments and questions I say a big "THANK YOU".
I hope all your building/racing goals meet with much success.
As for now, Motorshop is officially closed.
To all of you who posted comments and questions I say a big "THANK YOU".
I hope all your building/racing goals meet with much success.
As for now, Motorshop is officially closed.
Doug Azary
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
#113
don.siegel
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Posted 23 October 2009 - 08:30 AM
Very sorry to hear that Doug - I was really enjoying this thread!
Don
Don
#114
havlicek
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Posted 23 October 2009 - 09:25 AM
!? Me too.
-john
-john
John Havlicek
#115
dc-65x
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Posted 23 October 2009 - 02:25 PM
Doug,
I'm sorry to see the thread end too but I'm sure you have good reasons. You certainly ended on a high point as that's a beautiful motor
.
Rick
I'm sorry to see the thread end too but I'm sure you have good reasons. You certainly ended on a high point as that's a beautiful motor
.Rick
Rick Thigpen
Check out Steve Okeefe's great web site at its new home here at Slotblog:
The Independent Scratchbuilder
There's much more to come...
#116
slotbaker
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Posted 23 October 2009 - 02:27 PM
Bummer.As for now, Motorshop is officially closed.
Steve King
#117
Mark Johnson
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Posted 01 November 2009 - 09:02 PM
I will miss this
#118
munter
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Posted 02 November 2009 - 12:09 AM
I was waiting for Doug to work his magic on a C can motor.
Maybe this is an opening for others to show what they have done in the motor rebuild,blueprint,rewind or modifications department??
I have enjoyed reading the other threads by John H about motor work,who else is out here doing stuff?
regards
Maybe this is an opening for others to show what they have done in the motor rebuild,blueprint,rewind or modifications department??
I have enjoyed reading the other threads by John H about motor work,who else is out here doing stuff?
regards
John Warren
Slot cars are my preferred reality
#119
wilbor56
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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:09 AM
no now im not going to have anything to read in the morning.
Bill Harris
#120
havlicek
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Posted 02 November 2009 - 03:01 PM
I have enjoyed reading the other threads by John H about motor work,who else is out here doing stuff?
Thanks John, but if you're into motor work all you have to do is open any of Rock T's threads and enjoy! While he does favor the classic Mura motors (understandably since they're the pinnacle), he's probably done them all at this point. Rick doesn't just recondition motors, he'll often re-engineer them to ...or even beyond what the pros of the period were doing and using vintage arms to be sure that they run as they did back then. Pretty crazy-cool!
-john
John Havlicek
#121
Champion 507
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Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:46 PM
Hey guys,
I've had to back away from this due to time.
Maybe after the first of the year I can flip the sign over to "open".
I've read your comments and I appreciate every one of them!
I've had to back away from this due to time.
Maybe after the first of the year I can flip the sign over to "open".
I've read your comments and I appreciate every one of them!
Doug Azary
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
#122
slotbaker
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Posted 02 November 2009 - 08:50 PM
Ripper! Looking forward to some happy new year phun.
Steve King
#123
Phil Irvin
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Posted 03 November 2009 - 12:09 AM
Being from the 60s....I will miss this one
HOPE TO MSEE YA NEXT YEAR
PHIL I.
HOPE TO MSEE YA NEXT YEAR
PHIL I.
#124
Champion 507
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Posted 21 November 2009 - 03:07 AM
Guys,
In addition to graffiti on the wall, there is some handwriting there also...and for me, it's not good news for slot cars or Motorshop.
I just found out I am going to be involved with a project that may last a year and will consume most if not all of the time I wanted to devote to slot cars. I just found out about it this week. This is not what I had hoped for the new year but it has to be done.
I was really looking forward to flipping the sign over to "open" on Motorshop because of the nice comments some of you have posted here.
I'll still read and watch what the experts are doing here but I won't have anything to add.
I hope all of you have a wonderful and safe holiday season! I will be back as soon as I can.
In addition to graffiti on the wall, there is some handwriting there also...and for me, it's not good news for slot cars or Motorshop.
I just found out I am going to be involved with a project that may last a year and will consume most if not all of the time I wanted to devote to slot cars. I just found out about it this week. This is not what I had hoped for the new year but it has to be done.
I was really looking forward to flipping the sign over to "open" on Motorshop because of the nice comments some of you have posted here.
I'll still read and watch what the experts are doing here but I won't have anything to add.
I hope all of you have a wonderful and safe holiday season! I will be back as soon as I can.
Doug Azary
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
"We offer prompt service... no matter how long it takes!"
"We're not happy unless you're not happy"
"You want it when?"
#125
Pablo
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Posted 23 November 2009 - 05:07 PM
You can still keyboard race !
Paul Wolcott
