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#1 TSR

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 11:01 PM

Let see if some of you paid attention.

What was the very first American-made 1/24-scale ready to race slot car, and when was it issued? :)
PM your answer to me please.

The first correct answer with the most details gets one of my (old) books for free.

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#2 68Caddy

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 11:19 PM

I would just guess because I don't know :laugh2: but I guess it would be Revell or Monogram?

Philippe, can I just buy a copy of your book. It's out of print for God sake? :blush:
I think that's a compliment to have your book out of print? I been trying to get a copy of it but no luck. :unsure:

NestaPosted Image
- Gabriel
Nesta Szabo

In this bright future you can't forget your past.
BMW (Bob Marley and the Wailers)

United we stand and divided we fall, the Legends are complete.
I'm racing the best here at BP but Father time is much better then all of us united.
Not a snob in this hobby, after all it will be gone, if we keep on going like we do, and I have nothing to prove so I keep on posting because I have nothing to gain.
It's our duty to remember the past so we can have a future.

Pistol Pete you will always be in my memory.

#3 TSR

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 11:56 PM

Nesta,

Electric Dreams has them and for a lot less than ePay.

And no, it's neither Revell nor Monogram. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#4 68Caddy

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:48 AM

Would you sign it? :rolleyes:

So who is the manufacture of this little wonder?

Nesta
- Gabriel
Nesta Szabo

In this bright future you can't forget your past.
BMW (Bob Marley and the Wailers)

United we stand and divided we fall, the Legends are complete.
I'm racing the best here at BP but Father time is much better then all of us united.
Not a snob in this hobby, after all it will be gone, if we keep on going like we do, and I have nothing to prove so I keep on posting because I have nothing to gain.
It's our duty to remember the past so we can have a future.

Pistol Pete you will always be in my memory.

#5 Rick

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:56 AM

I am wondering what part of PM Nesta is having a problem with. LMAO...
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#6 Horsepower

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 02:54 AM

Can I ask, are we talking commercial track car or home racing car?
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#7 JimR

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 08:34 AM

1963. Unique. Hard plastic Jaguar body from Lindberg.
Or did I dream that?
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#8 TSR

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 09:18 AM

Can I ask, are we talking commercial track car or home racing car?

It does not matter. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#9 TSR

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:25 PM

We have a winner. So before I reveal who he is, can anyone else out there figure it out?

:blink:

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#10 Quickcars

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:48 PM

Just a guess. The MPC Jaguar lister, clam shell type blue car or, how about AMT with one of those big sedans?

I dunno... :blush:

QC
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#11 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 02:41 PM

I thought it was Strombecker, about 1962 ish... didn't they offer something like a Ferrari of some sort in both kit for and ready to run???

Or should I just go shut up and smoke another cigar?

Michael Rigsby
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#12 TSR

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 07:32 PM

The MPC Jaguar lister, clam shell type blue car

That would be a new one on anybody. :)
Are you thinking of something else?

or, how about AMT with one of those big sedans?

You mean, the Turnpike? They are not slot cars. :)

I thought it was Strombecker, about 1962 ish... didn't they offer something like a Ferrari of some sort in both kit for and ready to run???

Motorized static kits, never sold assembled. :)

The winning entry will be announced as soon as there will be a winner in another forum (the contest was run on three forums, one in France (FOLM), the other in Europe, with our friends at Slot Forum).

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#13 TSR

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 08:25 PM

There you go, boyz n girls...

Posted Image

The car was sold in both RTR and kit form, the kit being the more commonly found today. Issued in January 1964, it precedes the Classic Manta Ray by a full eight months. The body was molded by Paul Lindberg in special colors for Unique, but the same decals were used as in the Lindberg motorized kit. The body was then drilled on a jig to receive the brass chassis bolted under it, the long sprung drop arm being bolted with the Pittman motor. Machined aluminum wheels over 3/32" axles were shod with natural rubber tires. The guide was specific to this car and I have not seen it on any other model so far.

First, the RTR version in the scarce blue color:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Now, the kit in its clear plastic box:

Posted Image

And the contents:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Note that there were two decal styles.

So the winner is...

Gary Bluestone was the first to figure it out, and wins the book that will include the signatures of many 1960s pro racing heroes. :)

"Arno" wins the book in France, and no one won the one on SlotForum...

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#14 Maximo

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 09:00 PM

Dok,

This was a cool little thread/contest! This kind of stuff makes this whole forum better, more lively with cool historical accounts!

Keep up the great effort!

-Max
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#15 TSR

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 09:32 PM

Thanks, David.

We will do some more. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#16 endbelldrive

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 10:23 PM

Congratulations, Gary! Anyone who has met Gary knows that he is a dedicated enthusiast and has a keen mind for slot car history. :good:
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#17 Kim Lander

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 11:00 PM

Dokk...

Good little idea... don't think I would have gotten that answer... made me think...

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#18 TSR

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:36 PM

Actually, some French upstart on the FOLM forum in Froggistanland contested my contention and presented the Strombecker Lotus 29 as "the first", giving the 1964 edition of the Auto World catalog as proof.

Problem is, Strombecker presented the Lotus model (kit & RTR) as "new" in their fall 1964 edition of their "Table Top Topics", and their previous edition had not a word about it. Meaning to me that Oscar was late at printing his catalog, what else was new.
Hence... :)

Gary, get hold of me by PM so that I can organize for your book.

No one at SlotForum gave a correct answer, and Arnaud Vallet of Reims, France, won the other book. Congrats to Gary Bluestone and Arnaud Vallet for their perspicacity and knowledge of "how it was".

:)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#19 Horsepower

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 06:33 AM

I had that ad pictured in my head but could not remember the name to save my soul. :wacko2: I even went to see if it was in the Dokk's first slot car book and couldn't find the book. Truth! :unknw:

Congrats to Gary Bluestone!
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#20 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 09:04 AM

Not to argue a point but I PMed Philippe this bit. Scroll down to History and Lionel. Someone was thinking about slot cars a long time ago! :)

Slot Car at Wikipedia
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#21 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 09:39 AM

Don,

Lionel cars were NOT slot cars. And they were far from being the first to begin with, you will be very surprised when you read my new book... :)
I make a very clear distinction between rail-racing cars and slot cars. Not the same animal.

It is a bit of the same argument as naming this the first automobile in the world...

Posted Image

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#22 Neckcheese

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 09:48 AM

It looks like a rolling beer brewery. :lol: Don't brew and drive...
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#23 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 10:25 AM

Hi Plilippe, :)

I lead by stating I wasn't arguing a point. You kindly explained in response to my PM that the Lionel cars were rail cars. It is interesting that any toy car was powered with electricity in 1912.

The "car" you posted above... Anyone that lives in Barren Plains, a very small farming community where I actually reside, will know it is a portable still. A person would move the still to different tobacco barns. In the fall the Dark Fired tobacco that we raise here is cured with wood slabs and saw dust. Smoke rolls out of these barns during the process and a little extra smoke to make moonshine isn't noticed by the Feds.

Some of the tobacco barns do burn down so you try to just fire one barn at a time, thus needing a "still on wheels" for ease of transporting it to the barn being fired.
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#24 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 10:46 AM

Don,

I don't think that Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot, who invented this steam powered artillery tractor in the 1760s, was thinking about booze... :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#25 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:42 AM

Well, Dokk, it's a long and pretty boring story so I'll just sum it up. Mr. Cugnot wasn't sure if it was legal to build portable stills or not so he just called them steam-powered artillery tractors. And I've known that a long time so it's got to be true and right! :unsure:
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#26 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:44 AM

:laugh2:

In fact what he forgot were brakes. But the thing survives at the museum of arts and professions in Paris...

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#27 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:57 AM

I seem to know an awful lot about this thing but Mr. Cognuts did sell some some to the French to haul artillery. Knowing the French would not fight or ever even use the things, he thought he would just pocket the cost of the brakes. He was a pretty fart smeller, ugh I mean smart fellow.
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#28 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:09 PM

Well, maybe but you better read THIS... :)

Also there is this, the oldest surviving powered aircraft in the world, and the third to have been flown by Clement Ader. But the Wright bros will come a bit later with a better, more practical idea.

Posted Image

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#29 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:20 PM

I read the article but I already knew most of it. Mr. Cugnot lived in Barren Plains a while after the French withheld his pension. The old-timers here did say he moved away again though so the story seems right to me. But it's good that you've learned all this, I guess. :laugh2:

It's good you've sort of changed the discussion to airplanes. I don't know much about them, so I can stop thinking, except to sit in the back as an airplane never backs into anything and it's safer to sit there.
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#30 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:51 PM

The French would never have used that for anything related to artillery. Being used for artillery would mean it had to be an offensive weapon, and we all know that you can't retreat and surrender and be offensive at the same time... oh wait... I guess if you're French you can. :laugh2:

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#31 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 01:49 PM

It's good you've sort of changed the discussion to airplanes.

Why? What is wrong with what Cugnot tried even if at the end of the day he failed? All they had were horses. What Cugnot tried was like a moon landing in significance in a very ignorant world... :)

The French would never have used that for anything related to artillery.

Michael, why not? If indeed the French have not been known to win too many battles or wars in the 20th century, always remember that they were the most powerful nation on earth for four centuries... and they still were under King Louis XV...

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#32 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 02:15 PM

Why? What is wrong with what Cugnot tried even if at the end of the day he failed? All they had were horses. What Cugnot tried was like a moon landing in significance in a very ignorant world... :)


I can't comment on this. I've never been to the moon (I have seen it though) and don't know if Mr. Cugnot sold any cannon haulers on the moon. I'll ask if anyone around here has heard. It does look like there's been some shootin' on the moon, appears to be a bunch of big holes up there so you might be right.
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#33 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 03:57 PM

How about commenting on the design and performance of that Unique Jaguar D-Type, the world's first 1/24 scale RTR slot car ever? :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#34 Jairus

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 04:19 PM

Well, I didn't know the answer when Dokk first posted his question. But I have been collecting parts to build myself a replica... ;)

Posted Image

Thanks for the neat detailed pictures, Philippe! ;)

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#35 Horsepower

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 05:57 PM

That's close enough for government work, Jairus! Believe it or not, that's the first model I ever bought about 1961 or 1962, I think. It was 50 cents and had gray plastic with plastic wheels that wouldn't turn. I wish I would have saved it, but we blew it up with firecrackers. :laugh2:

Hey Dokk! I had Lionel HO cars around 1964 and they were SLOT cars. Faster than the Thunderjets too, although certainly not the first commercial slot car. I assume you are leaving HO out of this.

I thought I saw one of those Uniques for sale on eBay still in the box, about four months ago. I don't remember what the closing price was, though. That was an interesting pickup setup!
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#36 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 06:34 PM

How about commenting on the design and performance of that Unique Jaguar D-Type, the world's first 1/24 scale RTR slot car ever? :)

Now that's a good idea! :laugh2:

The frame looks pretty well made and the fit of the body seems impressive. The springy more or less drop arm might have worked pretty well also. The Pittman 704 motor was probably the best at the time.

I'd say the car was a pretty good one that was a pretty fair handler in the right hands. A better car than several that followed!
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#37 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 07:04 PM

That's also my opinion. The rear tires were the "diamond" type, so these probably need upgrading. These cars are really cheap when they go on eBay, so I am going to buy one just to test it and see how good it was. The basic design is actually quite smart and so much better than the later models Unique made, some of them truly awful. Plus it is a D-type and I LOVE D-types...

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#38 Jairus

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 07:43 PM

Philippe, hate to bug you about this but... is there a chance of getting a picture of the top of the chassis?

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#39 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 08:31 PM

I think I have one somewhere. I'll find it for you. And that does not bug me. :)

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#40 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 08:45 PM

I disagree with P on this one and would like some help to get to the bottom of it.

If you look carefully at the ad slick posted in this thread you will see that the 2411A claims to be assembled without motor but you can clearly see in the kit in this thread that the kit is only partially assembled. We have five more in the museum and I have seen countless others that prove this to be the case.

The 2411 also claims to be assembled but with the Pittman motor "installed".

Now, my contention is that this 2411, which BTW makes NO claims to be "ready to run", was in fact simply a PARTIALLY assembled kit with motor installed!

Can ANYONE here find even ONE other mint unused 2411 (in original box) that is prepared EXACTLY like the blue one shown here?
I doubt it!

Look at the paint detailing (too much effort) then look at the untrimmed axles (too little effort for a factory RTR). I also contend that the body sections were not even GLUED together so the car could not possibly run right out of the box!

The Classic Manta Ray was first!

I'll take an extra book, P, thank you.
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Scott Bader

#41 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 09:34 PM

Sorry to disagree, but there is too much evidence of the contrary in your own museum... :)

I know that you love the Classic Manta Ray but it is not even in second place here, it is in fifth place. It was not only preceded by the Unique Jaguar (kit partly assembled without motor for $6.95, and assembled model with Pittman DC704, with "chassis and body assembled, motor installed" as it clearly says in the ad, for $11.95), issued in January, but by the Polk's Hobbies ready to race car offered since March 1964:

Posted Image

And by Fred Rannalli's own version of this model issued in California as an assembled chassis with mounted body. (Scott has one in its original box...)

Posted Image

Last, by the Strombecker Lotus 29 in kit and assembled form, released in September 1964. The Manta Ray was issued in mid-October and in no case is the "first one".

Posted Image

The Unique Jaguar RTR box is this one:

unique_jaguar_rtr_box.jpg

It is also likely that it was issued later in a clear plastic box. It is also likely that Unique issued the car with painted details at first, then without the decals on the car, then with the details to be assembled by the customer to save money as production costs may have exceeded expectations.

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"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


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Posted 27 November 2009 - 10:51 PM

This is gonna be fun!

First of all, P and I do this all the time (usually in the privacy of the museum vault) and admittedly he wins 80% of the time. Sometimes he just gets a bit too over-confident so here we go.

As I stated previously, what Unique claims to be assembled is CLEARLY NOT assembled as can be seen in the pics of the "assembled KIT" and there is no statement of the 2411 claiming to be READY TO RUN! So we will see if anyone on this planet can come up with other boxed mint examples of the 2411.

P, I hope you realize that the blue car that you pictured came in that cardboard box in your last post and it may have come from Andy Douglas!

Now I will get to the smoke and mirrors that have been thrown out which shows that the master is clearly on the ropes!

The Polks car is distributor assembled! So that's out and he knows it!

The Fred's car is a nice try BUT he conveniently leaves out the fact that THIS car was not a true RTR. Why, you say? Because the body was unpainted and simply thrown in the box! Probably not even TRIMMED! Obviously not ready to RUN. The proof is in the instructions: "brass body holders should be bent to fit contour of body and installed with screws furnished" THE BOX WILL NOT EVEN CLOSE WITH BODY MOUNTED. So THIS one is out and he should know better.

The strombecker car is a joke! That car was made for the Strombecker home track and could be used on others like Monogram and Revell but it was CLEARLY not designed and built for commercial raceways like the Classic Manta Ray.

Where's my book??
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Scott Bader

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:10 PM

Semantics. I personally think that if one takes a car out of a box, place it on a track and it goes around, it is a RTR. That you have to finish detailing it is common in at least 50% of models considered to be RTR and that are either packaged with their body not fitted to the frame (MPC RTR Scarab, Lancia-Ferrari...) or with a loose sheet of decals to complete the model.

The Polk's car was not done by Polk's but by Rannalli and is the same as the one advertised on the Fred's ad, Polk's being simply a distributor. Rannalli had a shop in Santa Ana where ladies were assembling these cars in two versions, a complete chassis kit (supply your body) or a RTR with body. You still had to paint the body, the same as in the later Unique RTRs of the Maserati, Lotus, and Cheetah. Those are considered as RTR, why not the others?

Scott will lose this one, I guarantee you! :)

And he is wrong in thinking that the Classic Manta Ray was the first, because it was not. Even if in HIS judgment (and he will be lonely there... :) ) none of the Unique, Polk's, or Fred's products count (why not?), the Strombecker Lotus beats the Manta Ray by at least two months. :beach:
Now back to writing the book with facts, trying to get all the fiction out. :)

Gary, you get your book. :laugh2:

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:30 PM

That's weak, P...

I expected more smoke and mirrors, bobbing and weaving. You're toast and you know it!

When a kid bought a Classic Manta Ray he did not have to do ANYTHING to the car! There was absolutely nothing else to do! The body was painted, mounted, and decaled, and right out of the box would embarrass any goofy kid that would bring a Strombecker set car to a commercial track!

Why don't we just say Eldon made the first RTR? :laugh2:

Give gary whatever you want but you still owe me a book... :angry:
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#45 don.siegel

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 06:07 AM

Ah, this is fun....

One small comment: the box that Philippe shows for the RTR Unique Jag specifies that it has a DC-706 motor, so it couldn't have come out before mid to late 1965... In fact, Unique was still advertising this car in the fall of 1965, this time with the updated Pittman DC-706 motor, giving this car a very long service life! The first article on this car I found is from February 1964, which would mean it was around in late 1963. Do you have a MIB version of the assembled D-Jag with a DC-704 motor?

For what it's worth, I've always considered the Unique D-Type as the first 1/24 RTR car...

Now, about the Manta Ray... I know we've had this discussion before, but where do you get the dates for its release? The earliest reference I find in the period magazines is something like May 1965, in a hobby show report in R&C, which would imply that it was released no earlier than the beginning of 1965. I know the mags are not always timely, but this seems like quite a gap! Was it that Classic started with just very local, unadvertised distribution?

By the way Scott, the fact the the Manta Ray could run circles around the Strommie Lotus-Ford is indisputable, but is neither here nor there: they're both still 1/24 RTR models...

Don

PS: the Cugnot steam wagon is generally considered the world's first self-propelled vehicle; the Ader "avion" is considered the world's first airplane - by the French and nobody else. It possibly made a few hops off the ground on its official test flight in front of army officials, but the evidence is very, very shaky, and it never made a self-propelled, controlled flight. An earlier Ader plane also made a few hops off the ground.

#46 Gary Bluestone

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 02:29 PM

The question was what was the first American made 1/24 RTR slot car. The Manta Ray was neither. The motor was Japanese and the body couldn't be considered 1/24 the size of a real car since there isn't a real 1/1 car. The Pittman was made in the US and the Jag D was a real car.

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 03:39 PM

scott1.jpg

Here it is!
Grab your controllers kids!
It's READY TO RUN!
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Scott Bader

#48 endbelldrive

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 04:38 PM

:lol: :lol: :popcorm1:
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Posted 28 November 2009 - 04:43 PM

Posted Image

Here is the part of the sheet that Philippe did not show you.
Note the last bullet point, this same sheet was included in the 2411 and the afterthought later released 2411A kit.

The braids were not installed, hook-up wires were not stripped or installed, rear wheels/tires not installed, axle not trimmed, and two additional body screws needed to be screwed in.

This is just to get the car to RUN!

All the detailing would be even MORE work to make it a true RTR.
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Posted 28 November 2009 - 05:04 PM

It is also likely that it was issued later in a clear plastic box. It is also likely that Unique issued the car with painted details at first, then without the decals on the car, then with the details to be assembled by the customer to save money as production costs may have exceeded expectations.

What a bunch of crud this is!

As Don so kindly points out, the cardboard box was second issue with the later Pittman 706 so the clear plastic box was obviously first and there is no evidence whatsoever of any of the other fantasies!
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