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#51 Hworth08

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 06:19 PM

The question was what was the first American made 1/24 RTR slot car. The Manta Ray was neither. The motor was Japanese and the body couldn't be considered 1/24 the size of a real car since there isn't a real 1/1 car. The Pittman was made in the US and the Jag D was a real car.

Was the Manta Ray not patterned after a "show" car built by maybe George Barris?

Gary, using your standard, the 1:1 D Jag was a British car I believe. American motor, foreign body?
Don Hollingsworth




#52 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 06:39 PM

Was the Manta Ray not patterned after a "show" car built by maybe George Barris?

No, it was NOT patterned after a Barris car but his comment about it not being a "real car" is irrelevant, P did not specify that it had to replicate a 1:1 car.

Gary, using your standard, the 1:1 D Jag was a British car I believe. American motor, foreign body?

Ouch! That's a good one. Hey, it also had tires made of rubber from South America! How could it be an American car?? :laugh2:

The Manta Ray was made by Classic, an American company!

Nothing against Gary here because he was led into this trap that Philippe began creating many months ago, so technically Gary WAS paying attention and deserves a book, too!
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#53 TSR

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 07:17 PM

Here it is!
Grab your controllers kids!
It's READY TO RUN!

Scott,

What you are showing is the KIT version, stock #2411A. That is not playing fair.
The RTR version is #2411, and as clearly described on the ad published in March 1964, FULLY ASSEMBLED with FULLY ASSEMBLED body.
I see that you have made up your mind on this one. But sorry, that ugly mongrel of the Classic Manta Ray is neither the first nor anything but an ugly mongrel. There, I said it! :)

Don, the cardboard box shown is for the later version issued in 1965 when Unique dumped their clear-plastic boxes probably because they broke so easily. At that time, the motor changed to a 706. At that time, it is possible if not certain that the car was still sold as a RTR but one had to assemble the body details (seat, windshield, driver, and steering wheel, plus decals) when the first issue from January 1964 is clearly advertised as "fully assembled".

Regards,

#54 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 07:41 PM

Show me where it says "FULLY" assembled.

The 2411A says "assembled" and it clearly was only PARTIALLY assembled.
The 2411 says "assembled" and also was only PARTIALLY assembled, the only difference being that the motor was included and installed.

Now you ADMIT that the early 2411 came in the plastic box and I have shown the insert for that box which says simply, "motor installed", that's it!
Case closed!

Not ONE person has shown an example of a true factory fully assembled RTR that can be verified to be FACTORY assembled.

The examples you see on eBay are customer built up from a 2411A or the 2411 (which had motor installed by factory and was only partially assembled).

It has not been fair for YOU to show a customer-assembled 2411 or 2411A and insist that it was factory assembled!
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#55 Cheater

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 07:44 PM

LOL!!! Since you guys aren't married to each other (I think...), I figure you have to be brothers...

Don's right: this is fun to watch from afar.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#56 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 07:54 PM

I'm just getting warmed up! ;)
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#57 TSR

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 08:01 PM

Scott, in your dreams. :)

Posted Image

Which part of this ad do you have a tough time reading?

Kind regards,

P

#58 Foamy

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 08:19 PM

The Fred's car is a nice try BUT he conveniently leaves out the fact that THIS car was not a true RTR. Why, you say? Because the body was unpainted and simply thrown in the box! Probably not even TRIMMED! Obviously not ready to RUN. The proof is in the instructions: "brass body holders should be bent to fit contour of body and installed with screws furnished" THE BOX WILL NOT EVEN CLOSE WITH BODY MOUNTED. So THIS one is out and he should know better.

You could buy them all day long at Fred's Hobbies. A really early hangout, before I found Santa Ana Raceways.

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preferably one with a really awesome musical number for no apparent reason."

 


#59 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 08:20 PM

Does anyone see the word "fully"?
Does anyone see the words "ready to run"?

P, lets take this one step at a time.

Word for word, how is the 2411A described and wouldn't you consider the 2411A as being only PARTIALLY ASSEMBLED based on the 2411A shown in this thread?
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#60 TSR

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 09:00 PM

I think that the ad, the surviving models, and the evidence are clear enough. :)

#61 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:13 PM

I think that the ad, the surviving models, and the evidence are clear enough. :)

I agree...

In the LASCM vault I have the original pencil sketch of the Classic Manta Ray concept drawn by John Powers himself dated Nov '64 which was used for the box art. The car was most likely put into full production in early '65 as you suggest Don.

I spoke with John personally and he was very proud of the fact that he introduced the very first TRUE packaged ready to run car suitable to run on a commercial track!

Why else would this car have sold nearly one million examples? It certainly was not for its looks and there were certainly plenty of cars that could outperform it within a few weeks of its introduction.

John Powers' idea was brilliant! He conceived of a car that could be easily produced in large numbers in nice packaging that ran well right out of the box and you did absolutely NOTHING to the car, just hook up your controller and GO!

That’s not all though, he knew that the purists might want the car to look like a real 1:1 racer so he included a Lotus 30 body for anyone that did not like the blob concept.

Now look at how many Classic Manta Rays you see with the Lotus body compared to the Manta Ray body, my opinion maybe 1-100.

Obviously his concept drew a whole new demographic of kids and adults that wanted a car they could buy off the shelf without waiting for any finishing or detailing and simply run it!

There is no dispute here that the Strombecker car would NOT be in the mix and so far no other major manufacturer would qualify as the first commercial raceway RTR. I assumed that any car designed for home tracks would not be considered in this so called contest.

There MAY have been some cases where a distributor would promote a partially-assembled car and call it ready to run or a manufacturer or raceway would assemble a car for you but none of them could be considered the first real factory packaged RTR like the Manta Ray.

There is absolutely no evidence yet that the Unique Jag was ready to run! Every known example of the 2411 has been altered in some way by its owner and clearly there is not a single advertisement with a claim that this car is ready to run or fully assembled!

Based on evidence here at the LASCM I believe that the body/chassis assembly was bare with a big hole where the grille would go and two holes where the headlight lenses go, no seat, driver, or windscreen installed, not to mention braids, wiring, and rear wheels/tires BUT the car WAS PARTIALLY assembled with motor installed. Not even Philippe could get THAT car around the track fresh out of the box!

Please note that Philippe now clarifies his position on all other contenders offered between the Jag and the Manta Ray; he now says that they are ready to run simply by virtue of being able to get around a track?

According to Philippe the car need only to make it around the track, no matter how it looks and even if the body is unattached that it should be considered ready to run. At Revell Raceway in North Hollywood you could not run a car without a body and you could not run it if the body was not attached in some way! All of these other cars require that the body be trimmed, painted, and mounted and require SOME kind of assembly and detailing to be a car that would be acceptable to run at a commercial raceway

Philippe does not have the perspective of that kid or adult that has no mechanical or painting ability but wants to race a slot car on the BIG tracks. He thinks EVERYONE should be able to glue, paint and trim, fit and screw things together, but this just wasn't the case for a vast demographic that was being totally missed by every other slot car manufacturer until the first REAL ready to run slot car was introduced, the Classic Manta Ray.

Could you autograph my book and make it out to "winner" please, Philippe?
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#62 Bruce Neasmith

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:17 PM

In the red corner of the ring is Classic Manta Ray Man
In the blue corner of the ring is Unique Jag D Type Man
I don't know who is who but it reminds me of Cassius Clay -V- Sonny Liston in 1964 and 1965 .
One guy knocked down the other guy against all expectations . One guy had a short life and died of a
drug overdose in 1970 . The other guy lived on but under another name and he was never the same .
Neither of these career options are things which should be aspired to .
Classic Manta Ray :- 1964 Quick out of the blocks , came as a RTR , the kids loved it , the
purists hated it . They sold a million of them - ergo - they must have done something right . Never
was sold as a KIT but you could buy all the bits individually . Packaging and marketing was revolutionary .
Unique Jaguar D Type :- 1964 trickled out of a cottage industry , was no doubt sold as a RTR
at some specialty outlets but was mostly sold as an easily finished off kit at other places . They sold
to people who liked the idea of driving a replica of the real car . Packaging and marketing minimalistic .
Either way it does not matter who was first , both were a means to an end and accepted with
all flaws by a public hungry to become involved . The main thing is that if you consider the times then
and now you can avoid the outcomes of the protagonists in the 1964 and 1965 boxing matches .

#63 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:50 PM

Thanks for the interesting perspective, Bruce.

The situation Philippe and I deal with on a regular basis is in the interest of writing a book about the history of slot cars. As you can see, we are both passionate about depicting the most accurate yet entertaining view possible. Yes, we do get a bit bloodied up but ultimately we have the same goal. Honestly, if we could find just one untouched example and verify that the 2411 was offered as a car you could take out of the box and race on a commercial track without looking like an idiot I would graciously give up the fight and move on to the next challenge.

In the interest of accuracy I could not say that the 2411 was the first RTR and that is why Philippe started this contest. He was testing the water to see if he could get support from the slot car community and maybe some more hard evidence. Because he is Philippe some people will argue just for the sake of arguing and some will follow blindly with no actual evidence to support their position other than what Philippe has told them or shown them pictures of. That's why I am taking this stand, it is purely to be able to publish the most accurate book possible.
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#64 gascarnut

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 12:12 AM

I did not enter this "contest" mainly 'cos I did not know the answer :blush: , but what has come out loud and clear to me now are two things:

1. How difficult it is to come by the facts of anything related to those early days

2. How dedicated both of these gentlemen are to getting it as right as possible.

Thank you both.

Dennis Samson
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Life is scratchbuilt

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#65 Bruce Neasmith

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 12:25 AM

I walked into a big hobby shop in Sydney, Australia, back in the time. The glass counter display was full of kits from the various manufacturers. Behind the counter was the salesman and behind him onthe wall were a myriad of packages of the faster-moving spare parts and at each end of the wall was some shelves which displayed the specialty (read that as fast moving or expensive) cars and I have a distinct recognition of seeing the Classic Manta Ray car displayed on top of its open box.

It was one of the latest things in and to say it stood out from the rest was an understatement. The rest were there, Monogram, Cox, Revell, etc., etc., etc., but that Manta Ray looked wild to me as a kid. The rest of course were kits and I just don't remember seeing anything else as a RTR on that trip. But on the day that car was like a space ship, something from the future and I desperately wanted one.

Of course I could not afford it and I remember buying some of those Revell parts packages and a Mabuchi FT16 motor which came out of a wooden drawer below waist level at that back of counter wall. It was January 1965 and I was spending some of my Xmas money at school vacation time. I spent the next week creating an inline running chassis to put under a gutted out AMT plastic car kit I'd previously built.

#66 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 12:31 AM

I did not enter this "contest" mainly 'cos I did not know the answer :blush: , but what has come out loud and clear to me now are two things:

1. How difficult it is to come by the facts of anything related to those early days

2. How dedicated both of these gentlemen are to getting it as right as possible.

Thank you both.

Your kind words are VERY much appreciated, Dennis.

Sometimes I wonder why I do this but when the book is finished I know it will be well worth the effort. P does all of the work, I just have to keep him on his toes and make sure he can make his trailer payment. :laugh2:
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#67 Gary Bluestone

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 01:33 AM

I think the fact that the Manta Ray came with a Japanese made Mabuchi motor would disqualify it as being American made. That was a huge part of the car and many or the contemporary slot car boxes had printed on the box "motor made in Japan". That should rest the case right there.

I just added my point about the term 1/24 scale but that seems to have been misunderstood so I will try again to explain. One twenty-fourth scale literally means that a model is one twenty-fourth the size of a full size example.On an Imperial ruler, the scale was 1/2 inch to 1 foot. The real car would be twenty-four times the size of the model. If there is no full size car then there can be no half size car or 1/24 scale model. The Manta Ray was a fanciful creation or as it was pointed out, a blob, or a thingie but not a scale model of anything.

In the day there were many people who thought these blobs were ruining slot racing and many clubs began requiring scale replicas of real cars to be eligible to race. This meant accurate team colors, racing numbers, and even scale drivers. I personally didn't like the blobs ,and didn't know a Sonic Needle from an Astronaut, but now I have grown to like them for what they were, fanciful artistic creations that sparked the imagination, and milestones on the road of history.

The D-Jag was a British design, but the 1/24 plastic body was made in the US by Lindberg. As for the tires being made of rubber from South America, that's still American, but seriously I guess they were manufactured in the US. If you use sugar from Cuba in your apple pie, I think it is still American as apple pie.

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 10:46 AM

The scale is for reference only as there is no other way to inform participants that 1/32, HO, or any other scale should not be considered in the contest. We commonly refer to 1/24 scale for thingies too, even though they were not built to resemble any real full -size car.

As for the motor made in Japan, we would have to eliminate nearly every slot car ever made if non American parts were a disqualifier. Japanese motors are a huge part of the history of slot cars here in America and in the case of slot car motors the Americans had to play catch up.

The 2411 Jag was NOT a ready to run car! It was partially assembled.

Classic was an American company and also a huge part of American slot car history and obviously should not be disregarded.
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#69 Prof. Fate

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 11:38 AM

Hi,

By that criteria, why not the 1/25 scale K&B Ford GT? Only off a tick and was the first RTR I saw in North Carolina in the spring of '64.

Fate
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#70 TSR

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 11:39 AM

The 2411 Jag was NOT a ready to run car! It was partially assembled.

Scott,

This is YOUR opinion, contradicted by simple facts and printed evidence as well as artifacts. I am not going to argue this anymore, as I simply refute ALL your arguments here with the simple evidence of timeline and printed matter.

The Unique Jaguar WAS the first, factory-assembled, ready to race 1/24 scale slot car model made in America, and refusing the plain evidence as well as that Fred Rannalli produced the second model (in pretty good quantities according to the many that still surface at auctions) strictly based on semantics that you do not appear to apply to many other RTR models, and refusing to admit that the Strombecker Lotus 29, sold in LARGE quantities, and seen all over the magazines well before that mongrel of the Classic Manta Ray, that sold in huge numbers from early 1965 to children and early teens is denying evidence visible to all but the blind or the stubborn. The sales of the Manta Ray also prove the claim by Bill Cosby that "all children have brain damage".

This is my last word on this subject, I have better things to do at this time, like completing a very complex and difficult book to write with real fact and less speculation.

Regards,

#71 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 11:48 AM

I will show you more evidence in the vault! Bring your boxing gloves, we can take it private from here.

I have work to do, too.
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#72 don.siegel

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 01:34 PM

Model Car & Track, February 1964.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Don

#73 TSR

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 01:49 PM

Don,

I just found this in the archive and thanks for posting it.

As I said, semantics. When one grabs a model from a box and puts it on the track and it runs, for me, it is a RTR. After all, how many RTR models in the 1960s and 1970s needed extra finishing to be cosmetically ready? Like, 50%? They STILL ran when you put them on the track.

Hence, Gary, you get a free book from me. :)

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 01:52 PM

"Almost ready" as stated in the article. "90% complete" as stated.

Nice find, Don!
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#75 don.siegel

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 02:40 PM

90%, but it also has "ready-to-race" in the headline Scott. Kind of like what I tell my wife when I'm ready to race, but only feeling 90%....

Very interesting article in fact, since it's obvious that what Unique was trying to do was what Classic actually did a year later! i.e. break into, or even create, a mass market. The dream car design was obviously a big part of this, since it could appeal to teenagers who weren't car-conscious enough to know what a ten year old D-Jag was... and it was probably a lot more competitive, even relatively, than the Unique, although each was obviously designed for different kinds of racing: the Manta Ray for California speed bowls and the D-Jag for the hand-routed four-lane hobby shop and club tracks. What made the Manta a huge hit at $15 (outrageous for the time, remember...), and the D-Jag probably a failure at $11.95 for the RTR version (also kind of outrageous for the time)?

These cars also obviously trigger real basic memories in each of us: for Scott and others, the Manta was an eye-opener. For me it was more cars like the English club-racing cars, and ones like the following generation Lotus 30 by Unique, featured in the sexiest naked photo on the cover of Model Car and Track that I had ever seen, a year later or so... Back in Chicago, I had absolutely no awareness of the Manta Ray at local level, until all the Thingie controversy began to bubble up in '66 - just didn't know about it or see it anywhere that I realized.

So we're all defending our own bacon and version of reality in a sense.

There, now don't we all feel warm and fuzzy, and ready to go have a smashing slot car race with the chaps down the street?

Cheerio,

Don

PS: don't forget the graphics: Classic 10 - Unique 1!

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 03:12 PM

Nice way of summing it up, Don.

The first for me is just different than the first for P. :laugh2:

I'm sure the story will be written with the perspective from both sides and thus be 100% accurate! The reader can decide.
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#77 Horsepower

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 03:15 PM

Notice it says minus only, driver, windscreen, etc., on the D-Jag. These were probably not installed to avoid shipping damage and having half of them sent back as defective. The Manta didn't even HAVE a driver!

Don does it again with the "paper work". I must really be getting old. :to_become_senile: I thought I had all those Model Car and Track mags memorized! Nice going, Don! :give_rose:
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Posted 29 November 2009 - 03:21 PM

BTW Don,

Do you think the car in the article was molded in white so it would show up better in the pics or did they sell them in white as well as green and blue?
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#79 don.siegel

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 04:28 PM

You know, I wondered about that myself, Scott... I even wondered if it wasn't a sort of test shot or prototype, because of the white color, even though the article doesn't say that, and seems to be announcing that it's already available. We'll probably never know, unless somebody comes up with a white one.

Thanks for the nice comments, too...

But you know Gary, I always think I had these all "memorized" and then something always comes up that makes me realize I don't know as much as I think I do! But I also have a secret weapon: an index I did many years ago, originally on Dbase 4... it's far from perfect, but helps me find stuff like this pretty easily.

Don

#80 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 05:54 PM

The search is on for the elusive white D-Jag. :unsure:
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#81 TSR

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 05:56 PM

I think that as the driver in it, it was simply painted over either a blue or green body.

#82 Jairus

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:17 PM

I don't think it was molded in white. I think it was molded in YELLOW and due to the black and white photo.... looks white. Lindberg molded all their Jag D-type's in yellow and called it an "International Sports Racer" to avoid legal complications. I think Unique, in an effort to avoid the expense of creating new molds... simply ordered a number of kits in green. The article is simply the first prototype.

Posted Image

The body as shown in Dokk's pictures from the same exact molds as the Lindberg kit complete with the little electric switch indents under the back "bumper" area.

The first version used a sourced electric motor and required the electric switch. The kit I have used a motor that the builder needed to assemble (and wind strangely enough) with only two poles. This allowed the motor to set at idle until spun up to speed by rotating the wheels. To stop the motor one need only stop the wheels and the poles center on the magnets.

At any rate, the bodies were probably sourced from Lindberg and glued together, then modified by cutting the plastic out between the wheels for chassis clearance. Two additional holes drilled in the underside of the nose and it's done. The whole process wouldn't have taken more than five steps and a jig for drilling. Still cheaper to do than paying for a new mold!

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#83 Jairus

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 07:18 PM

Here is the switch indent cast into the back of the lower body I was talking about.

Posted Image

Since that portion of this kit is not described and no switch assembly in the instructions logic dictates that this kit is a second version.

Here are the instructions describing the winding of the two pole motor.

Posted Image

As one can see I have glued the top and bottom half's together and removed the plastic between the wheels front and rear in preparation for receiving a finished chassis (yet to be constructed). The Pittman 704 motor has been taken apart and the plates flipped over to place the axle between the arm and the magnet as it was with the Unique slot car. Have a nice set of rear wheels that are threaded and work perfect as far as clearance. But now I need some fronts... and a guide shoe.

Posted Image

You don't have any extra chassis parts you can donate, Philippe... huh? ;)

Time for some sanding and a korrect coat of BRG.

Posted Image

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#84 TSR

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 07:46 PM

Lindberg molded all their Jag D-type's in yellow and called it an "International Sports Racer" to avoid legal complications.

Jairus,

Lindberg had a static kit molded in light green and the box said "Jaguar D-Type". I sold on on ePay about six months ago. The kit was available motorized or non-motorized. The motorized version as you have may not have had the name on the box, but the static display kit did.

The Unique bodies we have seen so far were a darker green than the static kit and a medium to dark blue. It is possible that the pictured RTR in the magazine used a yellow body, but it could also be a green or blue body painted in... something light anyway.

Here is the picture you requested for your build:

unique_jaguar_rtr.jpg

I hope that you can see enough of the construction. This is a 1965 issue with the later Pittman motor.

#85 Jairus

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 08:07 PM

Teach me to use a declarative statement again...

Thank you for the picture, P. I had a set of those front wheels a little while ago. Put them on a nice Maserati F1 build for Chris Clark... damn. Now I need something narrow like that again!

Also had a front pickup shoe JUST LIKE THAT and used it on another car for Chris. I gotta stop using all my vintage stuff!!! :blush:

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#86 Horsepower

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 08:15 PM

Mine was gray. Non-motorized.
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#87 TSR

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 08:46 PM

:)

And for the Grande Patrone della LASCM:

unique_jag_ad_3.jpg

#88 Hworth08

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 09:25 PM

The "D" Jag calculates to $82.10 in today's money! Not as many MPH per dollar as a $120 Pro Slot Box-12 Wing car of today! :laugh2: Not as reliable either, except the motor.

Style and grace? To each their own I suppose...
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#89 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 10:01 PM

Almost!

Deceptive advertising doesn't make it true, Philippe, and it doesn't say "fully" assembled (as you claimed in a previous post).

If they had just gone that extra 10 or 20% and made a true RTR they may have sold a million like the Manta Ray, the first REAL ready to run!

This car was "semi" ready to run or "partially" assembled!

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#90 TSR

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 10:45 PM

There is no war, just submitted overwhelming evidence versus your denial. :)

The simple reason why the Unique D-Type was not as successful as it could have been is explained in one simple word: poor marketing and poor ads. The packaging was not too encouraging either and the choice of body was a bit off in early 1964, when the D-Type was a totally obsolete racer. Had they used a King Cobra body instead, I bet that the thing would have flown off the shelves. One has to remember that just about every product marketed by Unique had mediocre sales for various reasons, and by early 1968 they were history. Their first car was by far their best.

Today, I find this car really nice and attractive, lots of potential to make a splendid and efficient model, and if I had to race a vintage car from that period, I would chose it instantly over many heavy lumps built with what was then available such as Kal-Kar frames fitted with those enormous and heavy Kemtron Wasp or Bronco motors. I am absolutely certain of its performance potential over most of what was on the shelves in January 1964 in kit form since no other car was sold assembled until months later. The car was fairly light with the wight in the right place, with plenty of inner space to fit more weight as required. A good set of tires and that thing should rock.

The price was also pretty high due to the hand labor necessary to drill the Jaguar base plates by hand over a fixture, then assemble the parts with rivets and bolts, then glue the main body parts.

#91 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 11:27 PM

No argument there.

It's just unfinished and shouldn't be called ready to run which is why they didn't advertise as ready to run and also why the magazine article that Don showed us (writer was being extremely generous btw) called it "almost ready" and "90% assembled".

Are we done now?
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#92 stevefzr

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 05:59 AM

I think that as the driver in it, it was simply painted over either a blue or green body.

Did the article actually say it was white? Shoot a yellow body through a yellow filter using B&W film and it looks white. Ditto for blue body and blue filter. Even without filters, you just pump up the exposure and it'll still look white. You just have to make sure your background is dark enough not to burn out. Don't spend a lot of time looking for a white body if it was just an overexposed pic of a yellow one!

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#93 stevefzr

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 06:04 AM

So is the Cox 2E RTR a genuine RTR? They came with a bag of parts, like side pods, radiators, etc., that had to be added on. I guess a lot of kids were in too much of a hurry to test them as these cars often turn up missing all the bagged parts.

Personally, if I bought a car advertised as RTR I wouldn't expect to have to do anything, not even stick decals on. In that respect, I'd have been happier with the Classic than any of the others.

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#94 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 06:28 AM

I still say the Strombecker was the first sold as ready to run, no assembly required. A bag o' parts doesn't qualify as a ready to run. Regardless of whether it was designed to run on a home track, it could have been run on a commercial raceway out of the box, and I haven't seen a complete Manta Ray or an example of this Unique kit fully assembled yet.

Carry on with your argument; you both are wrong.

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#95 MrWeiler

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 06:49 AM

Well, maybe but you better read THIS... :)

Also there is this, the oldest surviving powered aircraft in the world, and the third to have been flown by Clement Ader. But the Wright bros will come a bit later with a better, more practical idea.

Posted Image

Looks like it may have been a tad bit unstable in yaw....
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#96 don.siegel

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 07:17 AM

... and pitch and roll too, not to mention rock.

Since I'm always arguing about this with my French clients (who believe that Ader really made the first powered flight), I asked the Smithsonian and they recommended a book by an English aviation historian called Charles Gibbs-Smith, who examines Ader's claims in great detail. Among other things, he points out that the control system on the plane used cranks that would have taken about 30 seconds to effectuate any significant difference... and that there was only one axis of control, not the three needed (from memory, may have some details wrong).

To get back to our point, the D-Jag is "ready to run", the rest is just details...

Another interesting fact: in the follow-up track test in the following issue of MC&T, which was very complimentary (of course...), the author does point out the one drawback, that the frame was riveted to the bottom of the body, and the body fused together! I believe the latter point was changed, at least for the kit, but not only is the D-Jag assembled - it couldn't be disassembled - so there!

BTW: just thought of something: the original Scalextric GP models were sold RTR in 1957, and they were about 1/27 scale, so they kind of count, too...

Cheers,

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#97 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:28 AM

Glad to see some other opinions!

Why don't we consider the numerous ready to run rolling chassis that were offered in the early '60s!

They would run around the track and just needed a few DETAILS. :laugh2:
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#98 TSR

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:38 AM

I still say the Strombecker was the first sold as ready to run, no assembly required.

Michael, you are wrong. The Strombecker Lotus RTR did not have its decals applied, they were on a sheet inside the cardboard display tray. According to Scott's new rules, it does not qualify as a RTR. :)

Looks like it may have been a tad bit unstable in yaw....

It was. Both this, the "Eole", the first powered airplane to ever leave the ground, and the "Avion 3" now in the Arts & Metiers museum in Paris, crash landed. Unlike the Wright bros airplane, they had no directional control.
But... they were the first!

Why don't we count the numerous ready to run rolling chassis that were offered in the early '60s!

Because they did not offer a "car" with a body, just a rolling chassis. Decals and a few cosmetic details are one thing, an entire body is quite different. Otherwise, a body kit according to your rule, could be a RTR, just add a chassis. I hope that you can see your illogical reasoning.

The same applies to full-size cars in a way. When the famous Porsche Carrera RS was issued in 1973, one of its most important devices, the duck tail, could not be purchased on the car, because of German regulations. It had to be installed by the customer after the purchase and was sold separately. So the Porsche could not, according to Scott, be a true ready to drive car.

#99 Prof. Fate

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:58 AM

Hi

Jairus, THANKS. I did that Jag in the pre-fad days. I replaced the two pole with the standard surplus USAF three-pole motors I was using back then.

I actually started with the 1/24 Strombecker Mercedes GP with the cheapo three-pole motor and the rail car set in about '59. I don't remember these being RTR, so much as a kit with options. I till have the Merc around somewhere and have been meaning to restore it. Soon, after, I read about slots and was frustrated with tripping over the rail when I lost it. The conversion was a simple pin with wipers that held me in good stead until I got back to the US in '63

One of the first things I got was the seven buck Dynamic roller for DC60s which I crammed under the 1/32(?) Strombecker Jag.

Anyway, there were a lot of on base club tracks that I played on in the day. And the standard car for most of us was a 1/24 Merit with an early 703/4 in them. When the Lindberg Jag came out, I was unimpressed in that it was so "last year" in my circles! A real commercial track had opened, the 704 was not competitive and my 36Ds were already getting rewound to the max!

My Lindberg Jag conversion disappeared decades ago, and I haven't looked for another.

You may now resume your conflict!

Fate
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#100 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 11:18 AM

I propose that a spread sheet be compiled that would include all candidates for the first RTR with columns that show any realistic reasons why it would not qualify or what the shortcomings where for each one.

Having a foreign made part is not realistic IMHO as long as the majority of the car was manufactured in US by a US company.
Most other comments in this thread would be valid.

We could keep the spreadsheet on the LASCM site and update it as new info surfaces!
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