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#26 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:44 AM

:laugh2:

In fact what he forgot were brakes. But the thing survives at the museum of arts and professions in Paris...




#27 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:57 AM

I seem to know an awful lot about this thing but Mr. Cognuts did sell some some to the French to haul artillery. Knowing the French would not fight or ever even use the things, he thought he would just pocket the cost of the brakes. He was a pretty fart smeller, ugh I mean smart fellow.
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#28 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:09 PM

Well, maybe but you better read THIS... :)

Also there is this, the oldest surviving powered aircraft in the world, and the third to have been flown by Clement Ader. But the Wright bros will come a bit later with a better, more practical idea.

Posted Image

#29 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:20 PM

I read the article but I already knew most of it. Mr. Cugnot lived in Barren Plains a while after the French withheld his pension. The old-timers here did say he moved away again though so the story seems right to me. But it's good that you've learned all this, I guess. :laugh2:

It's good you've sort of changed the discussion to airplanes. I don't know much about them, so I can stop thinking, except to sit in the back as an airplane never backs into anything and it's safer to sit there.
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#30 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:51 PM

The French would never have used that for anything related to artillery. Being used for artillery would mean it had to be an offensive weapon, and we all know that you can't retreat and surrender and be offensive at the same time... oh wait... I guess if you're French you can. :laugh2:

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#31 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 01:49 PM

It's good you've sort of changed the discussion to airplanes.

Why? What is wrong with what Cugnot tried even if at the end of the day he failed? All they had were horses. What Cugnot tried was like a moon landing in significance in a very ignorant world... :)

The French would never have used that for anything related to artillery.

Michael, why not? If indeed the French have not been known to win too many battles or wars in the 20th century, always remember that they were the most powerful nation on earth for four centuries... and they still were under King Louis XV...

#32 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 02:15 PM

Why? What is wrong with what Cugnot tried even if at the end of the day he failed? All they had were horses. What Cugnot tried was like a moon landing in significance in a very ignorant world... :)


I can't comment on this. I've never been to the moon (I have seen it though) and don't know if Mr. Cugnot sold any cannon haulers on the moon. I'll ask if anyone around here has heard. It does look like there's been some shootin' on the moon, appears to be a bunch of big holes up there so you might be right.
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#33 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 03:57 PM

How about commenting on the design and performance of that Unique Jaguar D-Type, the world's first 1/24 scale RTR slot car ever? :)

#34 Jairus

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 04:19 PM

Well, I didn't know the answer when Dokk first posted his question. But I have been collecting parts to build myself a replica... ;)

Posted Image

Thanks for the neat detailed pictures, Philippe! ;)

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#35 Horsepower

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 05:57 PM

That's close enough for government work, Jairus! Believe it or not, that's the first model I ever bought about 1961 or 1962, I think. It was 50 cents and had gray plastic with plastic wheels that wouldn't turn. I wish I would have saved it, but we blew it up with firecrackers. :laugh2:

Hey Dokk! I had Lionel HO cars around 1964 and they were SLOT cars. Faster than the Thunderjets too, although certainly not the first commercial slot car. I assume you are leaving HO out of this.

I thought I saw one of those Uniques for sale on eBay still in the box, about four months ago. I don't remember what the closing price was, though. That was an interesting pickup setup!
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#36 Hworth08

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 06:34 PM

How about commenting on the design and performance of that Unique Jaguar D-Type, the world's first 1/24 scale RTR slot car ever? :)

Now that's a good idea! :laugh2:

The frame looks pretty well made and the fit of the body seems impressive. The springy more or less drop arm might have worked pretty well also. The Pittman 704 motor was probably the best at the time.

I'd say the car was a pretty good one that was a pretty fair handler in the right hands. A better car than several that followed!
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#37 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 07:04 PM

That's also my opinion. The rear tires were the "diamond" type, so these probably need upgrading. These cars are really cheap when they go on eBay, so I am going to buy one just to test it and see how good it was. The basic design is actually quite smart and so much better than the later models Unique made, some of them truly awful. Plus it is a D-type and I LOVE D-types...

#38 Jairus

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 07:43 PM

Philippe, hate to bug you about this but... is there a chance of getting a picture of the top of the chassis?

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#39 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 08:31 PM

I think I have one somewhere. I'll find it for you. And that does not bug me. :)

#40 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 08:45 PM

I disagree with P on this one and would like some help to get to the bottom of it.

If you look carefully at the ad slick posted in this thread you will see that the 2411A claims to be assembled without motor but you can clearly see in the kit in this thread that the kit is only partially assembled. We have five more in the museum and I have seen countless others that prove this to be the case.

The 2411 also claims to be assembled but with the Pittman motor "installed".

Now, my contention is that this 2411, which BTW makes NO claims to be "ready to run", was in fact simply a PARTIALLY assembled kit with motor installed!

Can ANYONE here find even ONE other mint unused 2411 (in original box) that is prepared EXACTLY like the blue one shown here?
I doubt it!

Look at the paint detailing (too much effort) then look at the untrimmed axles (too little effort for a factory RTR). I also contend that the body sections were not even GLUED together so the car could not possibly run right out of the box!

The Classic Manta Ray was first!

I'll take an extra book, P, thank you.
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#41 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 09:34 PM

Sorry to disagree, but there is too much evidence of the contrary in your own museum... :)

I know that you love the Classic Manta Ray but it is not even in second place here, it is in fifth place. It was not only preceded by the Unique Jaguar (kit partly assembled without motor for $6.95, and assembled model with Pittman DC704, with "chassis and body assembled, motor installed" as it clearly says in the ad, for $11.95), issued in January, but by the Polk's Hobbies ready to race car offered since March 1964:

Posted Image

And by Fred Rannalli's own version of this model issued in California as an assembled chassis with mounted body. (Scott has one in its original box...)

Posted Image

Last, by the Strombecker Lotus 29 in kit and assembled form, released in September 1964. The Manta Ray was issued in mid-October and in no case is the "first one".

Posted Image

The Unique Jaguar RTR box is this one:

unique_jaguar_rtr_box.jpg

It is also likely that it was issued later in a clear plastic box. It is also likely that Unique issued the car with painted details at first, then without the decals on the car, then with the details to be assembled by the customer to save money as production costs may have exceeded expectations.

#42 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 10:51 PM

This is gonna be fun!

First of all, P and I do this all the time (usually in the privacy of the museum vault) and admittedly he wins 80% of the time. Sometimes he just gets a bit too over-confident so here we go.

As I stated previously, what Unique claims to be assembled is CLEARLY NOT assembled as can be seen in the pics of the "assembled KIT" and there is no statement of the 2411 claiming to be READY TO RUN! So we will see if anyone on this planet can come up with other boxed mint examples of the 2411.

P, I hope you realize that the blue car that you pictured came in that cardboard box in your last post and it may have come from Andy Douglas!

Now I will get to the smoke and mirrors that have been thrown out which shows that the master is clearly on the ropes!

The Polks car is distributor assembled! So that's out and he knows it!

The Fred's car is a nice try BUT he conveniently leaves out the fact that THIS car was not a true RTR. Why, you say? Because the body was unpainted and simply thrown in the box! Probably not even TRIMMED! Obviously not ready to RUN. The proof is in the instructions: "brass body holders should be bent to fit contour of body and installed with screws furnished" THE BOX WILL NOT EVEN CLOSE WITH BODY MOUNTED. So THIS one is out and he should know better.

The strombecker car is a joke! That car was made for the Strombecker home track and could be used on others like Monogram and Revell but it was CLEARLY not designed and built for commercial raceways like the Classic Manta Ray.

Where's my book??
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#43 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:10 PM

Semantics. I personally think that if one takes a car out of a box, place it on a track and it goes around, it is a RTR. That you have to finish detailing it is common in at least 50% of models considered to be RTR and that are either packaged with their body not fitted to the frame (MPC RTR Scarab, Lancia-Ferrari...) or with a loose sheet of decals to complete the model.

The Polk's car was not done by Polk's but by Rannalli and is the same as the one advertised on the Fred's ad, Polk's being simply a distributor. Rannalli had a shop in Santa Ana where ladies were assembling these cars in two versions, a complete chassis kit (supply your body) or a RTR with body. You still had to paint the body, the same as in the later Unique RTRs of the Maserati, Lotus, and Cheetah. Those are considered as RTR, why not the others?

Scott will lose this one, I guarantee you! :)

And he is wrong in thinking that the Classic Manta Ray was the first, because it was not. Even if in HIS judgment (and he will be lonely there... :) ) none of the Unique, Polk's, or Fred's products count (why not?), the Strombecker Lotus beats the Manta Ray by at least two months. :beach:
Now back to writing the book with facts, trying to get all the fiction out. :)

Gary, you get your book. :laugh2:

#44 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:30 PM

That's weak, P...

I expected more smoke and mirrors, bobbing and weaving. You're toast and you know it!

When a kid bought a Classic Manta Ray he did not have to do ANYTHING to the car! There was absolutely nothing else to do! The body was painted, mounted, and decaled, and right out of the box would embarrass any goofy kid that would bring a Strombecker set car to a commercial track!

Why don't we just say Eldon made the first RTR? :laugh2:

Give gary whatever you want but you still owe me a book... :angry:
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#45 don.siegel

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 06:07 AM

Ah, this is fun....

One small comment: the box that Philippe shows for the RTR Unique Jag specifies that it has a DC-706 motor, so it couldn't have come out before mid to late 1965... In fact, Unique was still advertising this car in the fall of 1965, this time with the updated Pittman DC-706 motor, giving this car a very long service life! The first article on this car I found is from February 1964, which would mean it was around in late 1963. Do you have a MIB version of the assembled D-Jag with a DC-704 motor?

For what it's worth, I've always considered the Unique D-Type as the first 1/24 RTR car...

Now, about the Manta Ray... I know we've had this discussion before, but where do you get the dates for its release? The earliest reference I find in the period magazines is something like May 1965, in a hobby show report in R&C, which would imply that it was released no earlier than the beginning of 1965. I know the mags are not always timely, but this seems like quite a gap! Was it that Classic started with just very local, unadvertised distribution?

By the way Scott, the fact the the Manta Ray could run circles around the Strommie Lotus-Ford is indisputable, but is neither here nor there: they're both still 1/24 RTR models...

Don

PS: the Cugnot steam wagon is generally considered the world's first self-propelled vehicle; the Ader "avion" is considered the world's first airplane - by the French and nobody else. It possibly made a few hops off the ground on its official test flight in front of army officials, but the evidence is very, very shaky, and it never made a self-propelled, controlled flight. An earlier Ader plane also made a few hops off the ground.

#46 Gary Bluestone

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 02:29 PM

The question was what was the first American made 1/24 RTR slot car. The Manta Ray was neither. The motor was Japanese and the body couldn't be considered 1/24 the size of a real car since there isn't a real 1/1 car. The Pittman was made in the US and the Jag D was a real car.

#47 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 03:39 PM

scott1.jpg

Here it is!
Grab your controllers kids!
It's READY TO RUN!
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Scott Bader

#48 endbelldrive

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 04:38 PM

:lol: :lol: :popcorm1:
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#49 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 04:43 PM

Posted Image

Here is the part of the sheet that Philippe did not show you.
Note the last bullet point, this same sheet was included in the 2411 and the afterthought later released 2411A kit.

The braids were not installed, hook-up wires were not stripped or installed, rear wheels/tires not installed, axle not trimmed, and two additional body screws needed to be screwed in.

This is just to get the car to RUN!

All the detailing would be even MORE work to make it a true RTR.
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#50 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 05:04 PM

It is also likely that it was issued later in a clear plastic box. It is also likely that Unique issued the car with painted details at first, then without the decals on the car, then with the details to be assembled by the customer to save money as production costs may have exceeded expectations.

What a bunch of crud this is!

As Don so kindly points out, the cardboard box was second issue with the later Pittman 706 so the clear plastic box was obviously first and there is no evidence whatsoever of any of the other fantasies!
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