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#101 don.siegel

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 11:42 AM

Actually, Scott, what would be really useful would be a spread'sheet with dates for all slot cars issued in the 60s, not just the RTRs in this one year... but I assume you and Philippe are already on the case, at least indirectly.

With the couple indexes I've done, I generally have the first print mention of all cars - but that would have to be cross-referenced against catalogs and any other sources.

Don




#102 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 11:47 AM

Because they did not offer a "car" with a body, just a rolling chassis. Decals and a few cosmetic details are one thing, an entire body is quite different. Otherwise, a body kit according to your rule, could be a RTR, just add a chassis. I hope that you can see your illogical reasoning.

My comment was made to show how ridiculous it is to say a car is "READY TO RUN" when even the manufacturer would not state this in their advertising and catalogues!

The car was meant to have a driver (which also needed to be assembled), driver seat, exhaust pipe, grille, headlight covers, windscreen, dash, steering wheel, and decals applied. Then you would paint the driver details, seat, steering wheel, exhaust, and paint in the taillights!

This would be a minimum of the work that would be required to run this car as it was designed to look when finished!

Both Don and Philippe are minimizing the work that would be required for this car to be realistically ready to run

No reasonable person would buy this car and run it as is right out of the box! It would be downright embarrassing to do so!

These details are crucial components to depict the car as pictured in the box that the car came in.

I would love to see Philippe drive his Mercedes without all of these so called "details"!
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#103 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 11:56 AM

Actually, Scott, what would be really useful would be a spreadsheet with dates for all slot cars issued in the 60s, not just the RTRs in this one year... but I assume you and Philippe are already on the case, at least indirectly.

With the couple indexes I've done, I generally have the first print mention of all cars - but that would have to be cross-referenced against catalogs and any other sources.

We have compiled a full listing but it is too much information for this topic.

My proposal would include only a handful of cars on point.
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#104 TSR

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 01:34 PM

Don,

The new book has a section with each manufacturer, describing the origin of the company and how they were involved in our faved hobby, and how they got out or got booted out. In between is a description year per year, month per month of their product, concentrating on what is important and trying to be right to the point. Lots of text accompanied by lots of pictures.

At the end of the book is a multi-page listing of every kit and RTR ever issued by American companies, as well as Euro, South American, and Japanese companies that copied or got inspiration from the American slot cars. It also means that European companies such as Scalextric, Jouef, Polistil, etc., will be utterly ignored, because they were in the toy business and most of their product was re-hash of Scalextric toys. Some will be shown and mentioned only if relevant to the main subject, what happened in the boom years in the USA.

It is quite a pile of work, and expands so much more than the original book, constricted by its publisher, was able to do.

The pro-racing history in itself will be a riot with all the great anecdotes, and for the first time ever, color pictures of the actual cars, people, and motors. A dozen of interviews with surviving pro racers, their own story told by themselves, is included. Period artwork, prototype drawings, it will have it all.

Including, as we can see here, controversies, arguments, questions left with no answers and deep mysteries of secret slot car societies using monk robes and candles.

Be ready for quite a ride. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#105 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 02:23 PM

Just in case you have all not heard yet, the new book will include a link with unique password so that any purchaser will have secret society access to a hidden feature at the LASCM site!

This feature will have corrections and updates as more information is uncovered in the history of this great hobby and Keynsian economic meltdown model. :laugh2:
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#106 TSR

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 02:31 PM

We will have white robes and pointed hats with eye ports in the rental section. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#107 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 03:36 PM

P,

Wrong society, wrong blog... :shok:
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#108 TSR

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 03:58 PM

OK, purple then. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#109 Quickcars

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 07:37 AM

We will have white robes and pointed hats with eye ports in the rental section. :)

Nice image there, PdL... NOT. :angry:
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#110 sportblazer350

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 11:42 AM

As with the others out there, this makes for great historical reading! :)

So where do the Monogram 1/24 scale RTR cars fall into the exact order of RTR cars in this argument? :unsure:

Glenn Orban
vintage slot car enthusiast
NJ SCALE Racing

Hardbody Racing at The Race Place


#111 TSR

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 10:59 PM

Glenn,

Monogram began issuing RTR cars in 1966 for their first racing sets. The 1/24 scale cars with vac-formed bodies began being issued also in 1966, and the last ones were made in 1967.

Scott and I have come to an agreement to disagree, but the example of the Cox Chaparral 2E "RTR" version with the soft body is perfect to prove my point. Indeed this ready to race model had to have many cosmetic parts assembled after purchase: air scoops, headrest, and all the chrome bits were packed in a clear plastic bag stapled to the corrugated spacer in the box.

However and exactly as the Unique Jaguar, the car can be driven without all this stuff on it and many are still being found today in used condition without any of these parts on them, so Scott is talking now about an ARTR ("almost ready to race") separate class. I applied a firm "no" to the idea and we are still good friends of course.

:)

So officially and without any further do, I, Moi Lui-Meme (well search it if your French is defective), proclaims that the Unique Jaguar D-Type, stock #2411, is the world's first 1/24 scale RTR slot-car model ever produced.

So there, end of the discussion.

:)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#112 don.siegel

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 03:07 PM

I couldn't quite get this topic out of my head - thanks for the stimulating debate, Philippe and Scott! - so I took some time today to look through the literature and see what was actually available in the 1964-65 timeframe. And the answer is: not a heck of a lot, at least until the end of 1965, when the whole RTR trend seems to have exploded.

First, all the way through 1964, there's just not very much except what we've discussed above: the Unique D-Jag, the Strombecker Lotus-Ford, and a couple custom-assembled complete 1/24 cars.

The next mention is in March 1965 in Model Car Science (remember, about three months lead time for a monthly magazine at the time, but manufacturers often announced in advance, so that could take a month or two off, depending on the case...). And guess who's first? Our old friends...

Posted Image

Yes, it's a clear body that had to be painted, but otherwise ready to run and win! (Hmm, they all seem to have claimed that...). This is right in the midst of the kit boom by the way, with all the major manufacturers joining Revell and Monogram, the two pioneers: Cox, Russkit, AMT, etc. And Unique must have been doing some good publicity because they got a rave review in the following issue and then my all-time favorite cover in May 1965. The magazine came in a clear plastic cover and featured a "naked" car - almost as good as Playboy for 1965!

Posted Image

There were also a few rather ambiguous cases, starting with MPC... from April 1965 issues of MCS and Car Model:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

We're still not sure if the Ramcharger was ever released, and I don't know if the original MPC Dyn-O-Charger, the Scarab, was released as a RTR at the time; the ad says it was, and in the following issue it says that it was being sold built-up at an introductory price of $12.95, that would rise to $14.95 afterwards - but this is also given as the kit price in other references...

Have you noticed that there is no mention of the Classic Manta Ray anywhere in here? They didn't do any mainstream advertising until 1966, when the Manta had already did it big I assume...

The next one I'm not sure of either: Dynamic RTRs with AMT bodies... MCS June 1965, in a profile of Dynamic.

Posted Image

And then in August 1965 we get an undisputable RTR in the box, from K&B:

Posted Image

Skip a few months ahead to October and now Russkit is getting in the game... This is also one of the first issues in which we see an ad for the Adam & Sons Quad Mk 1, probably an RTR also, although the ad only shows the chassis. And guess who pops up again: Unique, this time with the LeMans line - not to mention Grand Prix's King F/D range.

Posted Image

Posted Image

And then things really start to accelerate in November, with the return of our friend Fred Rannalli. But he's not alone, since we have a few more contenders.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

End of the year, on a high note, and we see the Manta Ray copycat before the real thing. Plus, there's the usual Xmas shopping pages, and you can see why this was probably the high point of the whole fad...

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Which brings us up to the January 1966 issue of Rod & Custom, and the consecration of the whole RTR phenomenon.

Posted Image

Cheers,

Don

#113 TSR

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 04:07 PM

Don,

Thanks for the help that once more and in many levels, proves my point and my assertions by illustrating what really happened with documents not accessible to all.

:)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#114 don.siegel

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 04:59 PM

You're welcome, Philippe - it's actually a lot more fun proving you're wrong, but in this case I agree with you...

Did Dynamic ever release those two RTR cars with AMT bodies? I know there are bodies around, but don't think I've ever seen the cars...

The other cars in the R&C RTR roundup that didn't have any advertising prior to this were the Dugan and American Line - all the others were somewhere in the mags.

Don

#115 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 06:30 PM

Every RTR you pictured after the K&B Lotus was fully assembled and "ready to run" but the Classic Manta Ray was released BEFORE the K&B Lotus.

Philippe would NEVER run one of those partially-assembled cars (that you call RTRs) as they were out of the box, hence NOT ready to run! They all required a good deal of work to finish!

The Cox 2e "RTR" was NOT ready to run either and NOT fully assembled and should be considered a partially-assembled car.
As I stated in a previous reply, deceptive advertising doesn't make it true!

You guys can think what you want but the first true finished, nothing to add, fully-assembled as pictured on the box, ready to run slot car designed for commercial raceways was the Classic Manta Ray, and you will never convince me it's not, and so it will be written for future generations for all time.

THE END!
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#116 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 06:35 PM

BTW,

I would pay a $100 reward to anyone that could lead me to the purchase of a MIB Stinger Manta Ray!
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#117 TSR

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 06:41 PM

You guys can think what you want but the first true finished, nothing to add, fully assembled as pictured on the box, ready to run slot car designed for commercial raceways was the Classic Manta Ray, and you will never convince me it's not, and so it will be written for future generations for all time.

Not in that new book of mine... we will stick to the simple truth. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#118 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:57 PM

You can't find one un-true statement in my last post.

The book I am financing is going to show the REAL truth. You just don't LIKE the Manta Ray so your personal feelings are clouding your judgment.

If you want to write about what Philippe likes and doesn't like then you've got the wrong investor. This new book is not going to be fiction, it is going to be based on hard facts and impirical evidence which I have shown here in this thread.

There won't be any more "this car is ugly" or "that guy is a thief" just state the facts and let the reader decide what the truth is!

I thought you were done with this discussion.
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#119 Mark H

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 01:29 AM

:popcorm1:
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#120 Prof. Fate

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 12:13 PM

Hi,

Starting in '64, the track in Goldsboro, NC, was paying me five bucks a kit to build up kits for them as RTRs.

In '65 this included the MPC Scarab KIT. I didn't see an RTR and the track would have loved to sell RTRs.

I didn't consider, later, the Renallis as "RTRs" as the chassis was so flexi you had to bolt wire to the chassis to keep it from bending on the first lap.

Fate
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#121 Gary Bluestone

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 12:42 PM

There is a Scarab on ePay now, item# 390128341689. It says 1965 for what that's worth.

The chassis is fully assembled and attached to the body base, but you had to put the top on with two screws and it looks like you had to add the windshield and driver.

I bought one of the SC100 "Sears" future cars like this and you could run it out of the box, but the top took only a few seconds to install and the windshield and everything was already assembled. I imagine that the Lancia Ferrari came the same way. Considering also that these motors(Dyn-O-Charger, Dyna-Charger, seen it spelled both ways), were made in the USA.

#122 TSR

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 12:48 PM

Both the Lancia-Ferrari, Scarab, and SC100 were available in shops in 1965.

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#123 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 02:57 PM

Excellent observation Rocky!

Also, Philippe knows that the Manta Rays were offered before those MPC cars but the SC100 is a good call, as it was also a REAL RTR and a relatively early car!
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#124 TSR

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 04:10 PM

Scott,

With all due respect, both the SC100, Lancia-Ferrari, and Scarab came at the same time as proven by period literature. There is no evidence, none whatsoever, that the Classic Manta Ray was issued before these three models, that did require the body to be assembled with the two bolt and nuts supplied in their packaging. I still consider them as RTR versus "kits" that require chassis assembly.

Thing is, both Classic's Ilmars Kersels and Sam Bergman said clearly to me during my interview in 1997 that their model was issued in the middle of 1965, they could not quite remember (of course through magazine ads and copy analysis and accounting for printing delay, we can assert that the Manta Ray was POSSIBLY issued sometimes around May or June 1965). In any case it was officially presented for the first time to retailers and distributors at the February 1966 Chicago Hobby Fair.

They NEVER claimed that their model was "the first" RTR out there. John Power however, made that claim, but I do not believe that he knew much about what was out there already.

I believe that your intense desire to qualify the Manta Ray as "first" blinds you to the simple reality of the actual facts. :)

I think that the simple magazine analysis by Don proves these facts.

And now, back to trying to plug the holes in my trailer's roof. :angry:

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#125 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 04:30 PM

MY vision is just fine, thank you!

Based on the speed of development of slot cars during this period, I would say that a car could go from design to finished product within 60 to 90 days, especially a vacform body car with Mabuchi motor!

As I have said before, the design sketch we have is dated Nov '64, so that would put this car in production very early in 65! Maybe as early as January!

John Powers is the most knowledgeable source we have to say when this car was released. You still offer nothing but smoke, mirrors and guesses while I offer hard evidence.

I will post a pic of the sketch if anyone is interested.
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#126 TSR

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 04:55 PM

Scott,

With all due respect, and I am saying this with many years of experience in the toy industry, that is pure speculation without any evidence.

The opposing evidence to your baseless theory is, however, overwhelming.

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#127 don.siegel

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 05:18 PM

Yes, very interested in seeing the sketch, Scott.

I think you've both got your dates a bit mixed up. A design sketch dated November '64 does not mean anything specific, it's just a clue. Could have been ready two months later - or six months or a year. And there was a definite order to the MPC cars, not quite as Philippe says.

The absolutely first mention of the Manta Ray I can find is in the Hobby Show review in Rod & Custom, May 1965. The Hobby Show was in February, and the article says: "Classic Iidustries, new in the field, are offering the fantastic Manta-Ray built-up." There's a photo of it in a magazine later that year, in one of those loop-the-loops that Californians were so fond of... And it's certainly well enough known by then to be copied by the Stinger - this all seems to indicate a release towards April or probably May 1965. If any of you SoCalers have any specific memories of this would love to hear from you!

In the same article it says: "MPC's Dyn-O-Charger slot racer will sell as built-up or kit. It's really potent. "

The Lancia-Ferrari came some time afterwards, certainly during the year, and the SC-100, sold through Sears and not under the MPC label, is first mentioned in January 1966.

Despite MPC's claims, I don't remember seeing these as built-ups, or semi-built-ups - but remember that nobody saw everything.

What's curious is that Classic could have sold a million Manta Rays, basically without any advertising! Let's assume it came out in mid-'65, give or take a month, but they didn't start advertising until February 1966, with a full page ad for the Manta Ray and the Viper in Model Car Science; then one for the Asp the next month (Car Model), the Astro V in May '66, etc. They were on a roll!

But let's go back to the original definition: Ready-to-Run. Not ready to be presented for a concours, just ready to run - and that's what the two first Unique cars were. In fact, a lot of kids, and probably a few adults, just slapped together a kit to get it on the track, threw together some parts, or ran the D-Jag the way it came, or the clear Lotus 30 the way it was: ready to run. We see these kinds of cars all the time on eBay. Doesn't mean they were admirable, but that's the way they were. And the Unique cars were definitely marketed as "ready to run" - but the Manta Ray was a game changer (for better or worse), and they weren't.

Don

#128 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 05:46 PM

The Manta Ray says ready to run right on the box, so I would consider that marketing. The Unique cars with the clear body are ready to PAINT. :laugh2:

The early D-Jag is ready to fully assemble. :laugh2:

There is a big difference between "concours" and a car that is factory-finished to look like the car pictured in or on the box.
All of these examples previous to the Manta Rays don't even come close!

Thanks for correcting Philippe on the dates

My camera is giving me problems so give me a few days on the pic.
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#129 endbelldrive

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 06:59 PM

Why don't we just say Eldon made the first RTR?

OK... here it is... the earliest (I think) 1/24 Eldon RTR. It's old... real old. :help:

Posted Image
Bob Suzuki

#130 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 07:21 PM

BOB WINS!!! :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Philippe, pay Bob for the first RTR ever made!

Bob, you made my day. :wub:

There is only one thing PdL dislikes more than the Manta Ray and that is ELDON!
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#131 TSR

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 08:03 PM

OK... here it is... the earliest (I think) 1/24 Eldon RTR. It's old... real old.

Actually, it is NOT that old. It is a representation in the 1/28 scale (not 1/24) of the 1963 Trevis-Watson used by Foyt at Indy. How can one be sure? Simple: the newly-designed 15" Halibrand wheels of which design changed radically that year (Lotus used the same wheels after their Dunlops cracked and failed) and the nose scoop for the Offy, both that came only that year. Eldon issued this model in 1964, and it is irrelevant to our discussion because not even close to be in the 1/24 scale.

But hey, nice try! :)

Despite MPC's claims, I don't remember seeing these as built-ups, or semi-built-ups - but remember that nobody saw everything.

Don, we have them all, MIB. They do exist. :)

BOB WINS!!! :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Philippe, pay Bob for the first RTR ever made!
Bob you made my day :wub:

Scott, with all due respect, "in your ear! " :laugh2:

Regards,

Mr. P,
"constantly exposing the obvious for all to see" :)

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#132 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 09:07 PM

That was fun. :D

P, the one RTR that MAY have won and we DON'T have is the MPC Coronet!

That was also a TRUE RTR but sadly was never released to the general public for purchase and even if officially sold would not meet the homologation requirements for this contest I presume. :rolleyes:

Manta Ray 10
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#133 TSR

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 09:27 PM

Indeed, it was never issued, so I did not even consider it.

So the first is without a doubt the Unique Jaguar, then the Strombecker Lotus, then the Fred's Specialties models, then the Unique Lotus 30, then the MPC Scarab, then the MPC Lancia-Ferrari, then the MPC SC100, then the Manta Ray, maybe.

You lose, Gary and Don win. :)

PS: by the way, Cox, in its 1967 catalog, calls its factory-assembled Chaparral 2E model, on which the customer had to add all the details, "ready-to-Race" (page 3 of the 1967 catalog).

SoooOOO,
1) why do you believe that you know better than best of the best?
2) what makes the Unique Jaguar any different?

"Philippe is right and the Classic Manta Ray is still an ugly mongrel"

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#134 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 12:52 AM

The MPCs were released AFTER the Manta Ray and all the other cars on your list were not ready to run (Strombecker was set car RTR) as I have stated over and over.

Unique was just as good as Cox at deceptive advertising so don't sell them short. :laugh2:
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Posted 08 December 2009 - 09:37 AM

The MPC's were released AFTER the Manta Ray

Actually, no. At least the Scarab was more than likely released before the Manta Ray. Better face it, the Manta Ray is not even close to be first in line. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#136 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 11:18 AM

Philippe's new "ready to run" daily driver :laugh2: :laugh2:

The seller said he could "run it around the track". :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
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#137 don.siegel

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 11:36 AM

Touché, Scott!

Beautiful little car, too bad about the condition (or is that price realistic for something like that?). But missing a steering wheel in a 1/1 car and a 1/24 car is not quite the same thing...

Don

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 11:50 AM

Don,

It just needs a little detailing! :laugh2:
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#139 Cheater

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 11:51 AM

Don,

I think it would depend on the Devin body's condition. IMO if it wasn't total junk, the body itself should be worth his starting bid.

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#140 Prof. Fate

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 12:02 PM

Hi,

P and I have had similar arguments, Scott. A lot of this is the old "if a tree falls in the forest when no one is watching does it make a noise". I saw things that weren't in the magazines!

In the case of these cars. My dad was having medical problems and was medically retired from the military on June 1 of 1965. We were at Seymour Johnson AFB outside of Goldsboro, NC.

The last race I did in North Carolina was a Memorial Day Indy 500. The format was one could qualify on the high speed figure 8 anytime in May for the event. As I owned the lap record on the track, I was being paid money to build motors, 36Ds, like mine. Several guys ran at me believing the Dyn-O-Charger would be a better motor. And I built up several cars, as mentioned above, for people out of the stuff supploed in those MPC sets. The usual thing was people having me take the "Blister" Lotus vac body out of the box and taking their Scarab apart and turning it into an Indy car.

So, the MPCs were in MY hands no later than April '65.

The Manta Ray was also around, though it didn't make the main in any of our races. Again, no later than April.

Whatever the magazines say!

Also, I got my first AMTs through the good offices of the Rockford club. And I got my first Mono F1s at the end of summer after we stopped schlepping around the country that summer of my dad's retirement.

'65 was a busy year, but for me, I had clear dates on some of this stuff just because of the family events.

Fate
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Posted 08 December 2009 - 12:49 PM

Great first hand info, Rocky!
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Posted 08 December 2009 - 01:54 PM

Uh, Scott, Rocky is kind of contradicting your own argument... :)

Philippe's new "ready to run" daily driver :laugh2: :laugh2:
The seller said he could "run it around the track". :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Typical liberal reaction. Once out of facts to prove an argument, attack the messenger who has clearly established the facts.
You are doing real good, keep at it! :laugh2:

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#143 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 02:11 PM

Rocky contradicted YOUR fabricated date of the Manta Ray release Philippe.

You are the one that CLEARLY has an ulterior motive to make sure that the Manta Ray gets zero credit for being the first true ready to run commercial slot car, simply because you admittedly don't like it!

I am the one stating the facts here.
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Posted 08 December 2009 - 02:14 PM

So, the MPCs were in MY hands no later than April '65.
The Manta Ray was also around, though it didn't make the main in any of our races. Again, no later than April.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
:)

Also with all due respect, Rocky's memory about what happened and what was on the market is often and successfully challenged here.

Actual printed matter is what we use to establish the simple truth. And you are utterly wrong as clearly proven by the printed matter.
:)

I have no other agenda than that of the discovery of truth and accuracy.What's yours?
:)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#145 Rick

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 02:25 PM

I just slid a Sonny and Cher 8 track in and listening to "And The Beat Goes On".
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#146 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 02:52 PM

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The Manta Ray. :laugh2:
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Posted 08 December 2009 - 02:52 PM

Sonny & Cher? That's sinking as low as I can fathom! :laugh2:

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 04:22 PM

Also with all due respect, Rocky's memory about what happened and what was on the market is often and successfully challenged here.

Actual printed matter is what we use to establish the simple truth. And you are utterly wrong as clearly proven by the printed matter.
:)



Posted Image


Posted Image


There is no doubt in my mind that Philippe and Don are the most knowledgable experts in this field, but when opinions and wishes get in the way of facts, that's where I come in!
I bow to these guys and am but a spec of dust compared to their combined knowledge.
That being said, if they are open minded and logical they should not just brush off my opinion as baseless.

John Powers says he was the first and Philippe brushes it off.
Rocky says he remembers seeing the car at an earlier date than P speculated and rocky is brushed off.
I now present clear documented evidence that the concept was final as of nov 64, will this be brushed off as well??

Philippe, You have not shown us ONE SINGLE PUBLISHED BIT OF EVIDENCE of the date that the first Manta Ray was sold!

BAM!!!
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Posted 08 December 2009 - 04:57 PM

The date on the drawing proves our point (Don Siegel and mine): it is dated November 1964, as a basis for a project of a model that was issued in... early 1965, basically one year after the Unique Jaguar.
never mind, right? :laugh2:

The first bit of printed evidence of production of the Manta Ray was not published, as shown by Don, until May 1965. You would believe that such a successful seller, if issued before the Unique Jaguar, meaning late 1963, would have been shown or advertised before that 1965 date if it was such a big deal, but nothing, nada, zip until then.

Hence, it is hardly believable that it would have been produced before at least mid-1964, especially when the original drawing for the box is dated several months later and the motors powering it (the new Mabuchi FT36) did not even exist quite yet... :laugh2:

Scott,
You are hooking yourself deeper and deeper like a fine tuna. Please keep at it! :)

PS: bam back. :laugh2:

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#150 don.siegel

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 05:26 PM

Guys, please, can we get back down to Earth here?

I don't think there's any dispute that the D-Jag was the first of these cars to be released. Scott doesn't consider it a "real" RTR; Philippe and I do. All the arguing in the world won't change that - I thought we all "agreed to disagree"?

Ditto for the Unique Lite-Ning line and the MPC Scarab, which are pretty sure to have been released in March/April 1965, but again may or may not be RTRs. The Unique is sold as such, the MPC as a "built-up".

The Strombecker Lotus-Ford was out by December 1964 and it seems to qualify: a 1/24 RTR slot car. It wouldn't have been competitive, but it certainly could have run on some of the commercial tracks I saw, and it was not specifically marketed as a "home set" car.

The date of the Manta Ray release is still uncertain, although the fact that it seems to have been announced at the February 65 hobby show and that Rocky saw one in April 1965 gives us a better idea of the release date - although still a bit vague. The fact that John Power claims it was first doesn't mean much to me either, because he wasn't necessarily following the hobby all that closely, and while Unique was a real company and advertised nationally, it wasn't a powerhouse like Revell or Monogram. It was certainly a first of its kind, but not necessarily the first 1/24 RTR slot car.

Also, Scott, thanks for the nice comments, but I'm sure that there are other guys just as knowledgeable as we are - but who may not like the limelight or public discussions like we do.... nor perhaps this kind of bickering, even if it's friendly.

Cheers,
Don





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