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#151 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 05:41 PM

The date on the drawing proves our point (Don Siegel and mine): it is dated November 1964, as a basis for a project of a model that was issued in... early 1965, basically one year after the Unique Jaguar.
never mind, right? :laugh2:

The first bit of printed evidence of production of the Manta Ray was not published, as shown by Don, until May 1965. You would believe that such a successful seller, if issued before the Unique Jaguar, meaning late 1963, would have been shown or advertised before that 1965 date if it was such a big deal, but nothing, nada, zip until then.

Hence, it is hardly believable that it would have been produced before at least mid-1964, especially when the original drawing for the box is dated several months later and the motors powering it (the new Mabuchi FT36) did not even exist quite yet... :laugh2:

Scott,
You are hooking yourself deeper and deeper like a fine tuna. Please keep at it! :)

PS: bam back. :laugh2:



Obviously I do not consider the Unique D Jag to be "Ready to Run" so take back your bam immediately :angry:

If you don't recognize the difference between the Manta Ray ready to run and all the previous wanna be's then this thread may set a new world record for bickering that neither one of us has the time to do.

I have to get back to work so I can make enough money to pay for that BOOK!

Move on P
I will rest my case if you stop making ridiculous comments like the one above :blink:
Electric Dream Team
Scott Bader




#152 TSR

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 06:03 PM

Scott,
As long as you refuse to admit the clear evidence that plenty of RTR cars were issued before the Manta Ray even if you delete the Unique Jaguar for your own unique motivations, how can we have a serious discussion?
The score is simple:

Scott 0
Philippe 10

Next! :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#153 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 06:21 PM

None of the cars released prior to the Manta Ray were "ready to run" with the exception of the Strombecker car which clearly was not designed for commercial tracks but more of a home set car.

I will agree to take it private now because at this point we can no longer offer any new information, and we are simply regurgitating :bad:
Electric Dream Team
Scott Bader

#154 TSR

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 07:09 PM

It is your opinion and there is no point indeed of arguing it any longer. So, Roger Wilco and all that. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#155 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 08:04 PM

^_^ :huh: I won't argue your opinion either :friends:
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#156 Gary Bluestone

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 02:13 AM

So I'm confused! Are you saying that if these were really made, like the magazine says, they would still be ahead of the Manta Ray. :laugh2:

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#157 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 01:51 PM

Don't get us started :treaten:
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Scott Bader

#158 TSR

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 02:20 PM

Gary, good joke!
You bad boy.
Did it come with the factory warranty? :laugh2:

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#159 Prof. Fate

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 02:30 PM

Hi

I feel wounded....

P, part of the problem to me is that most things weren't in the magazines..and still are not.

That is simple.

I could NOT have seen the Manta Ray later than April for the simple reason that I was then in the midst of moving. One of the rare events where I had a hard date transition.

My argument with don about the Pactra Hemi and the 26ds is similar. I went off to school, and bought one with "illegal" money. I had grant money for books, and used the excess for the hemi. I had been running 26ds and did not have that Hemi.

In this era, bits showed up and were obsolete in weeks, there often was not time for an ad to hit the market.

On the MPCs. I was being payed to build up cars out of the kits and, again, that was in April and May. After memorial day, I wasn't around to do this work. Some guys paid me to mod their RTRs. The big problem is that none of my customers were happy. They bought the supposed "fastest motor you can buy" and my 36d rewinds were faster.

With the MPCs, again, after May, this story wasn't available.

Fate
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#160 TSR

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 02:59 PM

Rocky,
You are simply mixing 1964 and 1965... :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#161 Prof. Fate

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 02:00 PM

Hi

I said 65 for the manta and the MPC, are you now asserting 64? or are you misreading my post?


Also 65 for the AMTs.

In 64, I was building up mono and revells for the track.

Well, in 1/24.

Fate
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#162 don.siegel

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 02:18 PM

I think he just got confused Rocky.... I saw the 65.

Maybe we should lock down this post and preserve friendships...

Don

#163 gascarnut

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 05:37 PM

I think he just got confused Rocky.... I saw the 65.

Maybe we should lock down this post and preserve friendships...

Don


Not yet.....

My popcorn's only half eaten and with JPvR concelling his Euro-retro thing, there's no entertainment left on Slotblog..... ;)

Seriously though, this thread has gotten a little pedantic. Would it not be more useful, both for the readers and the long-promised book, to be debating the significance of some of these early products, rather than arguing which appeared when and in what form?

Seems to me that even if the Unique Jag was first, it bombed as a product and had little effect on the market or the hobby.

Dennis Samson
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Life is scratchbuilt

Samson Classics


#164 don.siegel

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 06:09 PM

Good point Dennis - but I did actually address this particular question in a couple of my earlier posts!

The D-Jag did bomb as far as we know, but the other Unique lines seem to have done pretty decently, at least judging by the number left on ebay!

And, as I mentioned earlier, the Manta Ray may have been a huge success, but I certainly wasn't aware of it until well into 66 when the Thingie debates really began in earnest. Don't know if that's because it wasn't as widely distributed in Chicago, or in my particular raceways, or I just never noticed it.

The Cuc may have been the most memorable slot car, and not just the best known Thingie, but would it have come about without Classic and the Manta Ray?

Don

#165 One27ray

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:32 AM

Very interesting thread :wub:


Shouldn't the question really be? what was the first: " Most Important " ready to run car :D Than the Classic Manta Ray would win hands down :victory: Turned all heads :laugh2: when it was put down on any track, any where, did for me at the time ;)
It should be called the Slot Car that saved the hobby at the time and/or generated the explosion/interest in Slot Racing/opened the door for the flood of new Ready To Run cars of the 60's.
Of course that my own opinion :laugh2:

i-ray
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#166 TSR

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 12:05 PM

It should be called the Slot Car that saved the hobby at the time and/or generated the explosion/interest in Slot Racing/opened the door for the flood of new Ready To Run cars of the 60's.

Actually, it did not save the hobby because the hobby was already exploding when it came out. It PROFITED from that explosion. It certainly was an important part its ensuing history, but understand that while it sold over one million, so did several Cox models... and more of them survive today than Manta Rays! :)

Indeed it is a very important model in the history, but as clearly established and against the opinion of Scott, not the first, not even the second, not even the third etc.
Previous information was simply incomplete and erroneous.

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#167 Prof. Fate

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:53 PM

Hi

I cannot see that friendships are at risk. In person P and I argue even harder over things. Part of "friendship" is giving someone permission to say things that you don't allow others.

I admit that I was pretty dismissive of the Manta when it came out. Wasn't scale! AND while it would run ONCE well for anyone, it wouldn't run TWICE as the same skills it takes to build a car like that from bits are the same skills you need to maintain the car.

In late 65 after we landed in Salt Lake, one of the local tracks had this babysitting program. Well, they didn't call it that. It was like this, you bought a RTR like the Manta, a controller and such for your 10 year old kid. The track would let your kid run all he wanted while you were shopping and charge a flat fee that included maintainece. This track was in the center of one of the first, and I think then largest, enclosed chopping mall.

The Track would be full of kids with their RTRs smashing against the walls, being roudy wile mom went off shopping.

A win-win.

As with skiing when you have "rock breaker" skis for spring and fall (and around here summer) skiing, so I had a coupld "RTR breakers" that ment that if I had a spare hour and "the URGE" I could pop in and run without risking a serious money making racer.

Which brings me around to the perennial question. I have no idea how to "grow" racing. Back THEN, it wasn't the rtrs. I just like to run and observe.

Fate
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#168 Gary Bluestone

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:30 PM

Very interesting thread :wub:


Shouldn't the question really be? what was the first: " Most Important " ready to run car :D Than the Classic Manta Ray would win hands down :victory: Turned all heads :laugh2: when it was put down on any track, any where, did for me at the time ;)
It should be called the Slot Car that saved the hobby at the time and/or generated the explosion/interest in Slot Racing/opened the door for the flood of new Ready To Run cars of the 60's.
Of course that my own opinion :laugh2:

i-ray



If you are asking that question, then it may be the VIP Austin Healey or the Scalextric Tinplate 1/28 scale Maserati and Ferrari.
If you are asking, What was the first "Blob" that would eventually lead to racing "Doorstops" then that's a different debate.
Whoever writes history it's his story.
Not everything in print was true and not everything that's true was in print.Gb

#169 m.milhas

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 04:54 PM

Hi Everybody

About this post i just want tell one thing in the other blog before this one i made a topic about the Unique D Jaguar some of you must remeber (Don Siegel,Philippe etc) and i put some photos from my Jag and i told that was the first 1/24 slot car .
In the 1964 March April Model Car Track magazine an article with a road test othis car and an advise from Fred`s Model Engineering
See the pictures

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#170 m.milhas

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 05:14 PM

In the 1964 May -June Model Car and Track magazine (i couldn`t made photos because my camera is with problems) cames an an article by Bill Sppel call Scale rundown says about 1/24 "One of the few non-stock-bodied ready to race 1/24 cars; a Jaguar by Unique Engineering.More such cars will be appreciated,then greater interest in this scale will be shown"
Miguel Pereira
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#171 Pete L.

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:11 PM

Jairus,

Lindberg had a static kit molded in light green and the box said "Jaguar D-Type". I sold on on ePay about six months ago. The kit was available motorized or non-motorized. The motorized version as you have may not have had the name on the box, but the static display kit did.

The Unique bodies we have seen so far were a darker green than the static kit and a medium to dark blue. It is possible that the pictured RTR in the magazine used a yellow body, but it could also be a green or blue body painted in... something light anyway.

Here is the picture you requested for your build:



I hope that you can see enough of the construction. This is a 1965 issue with the later Pittman motor.



fellas,


Man, that thing is ugly !!! Does anyone have a spare drop arm and motor so I can complete my restoration ? :D
Peter J. Linszky

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#172 m.milhas

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:47 PM

Pete

You think the car is ugly??
Miguel Pereira
Lisboa, Portugal

#173 TSR

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:55 PM

Miguel, Pete thinks that the Manta Ray is beautiful! :laugh2:

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#174 Gary Bluestone

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:37 AM

The photo in the above post shows that not just snot nosed, pimpley faced school boys raced the car out of the box with no headlights and no decals ! Even professional jounalists found the lure too irresistable. They go on to claim in Mar-APR 1964, that this was the first ready to race , and refer to the Feb. 64 article where they assert the claim that" Unique further liver up to its name by offering the only assembled ready-to-race competition car on the market at this time" I think I smell a smoking gun or maybe my controller overheated. :laugh2:

#175 TSR

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 09:45 AM

Gary,
it is simply a matter of people splitting hairs as they simply refuse to admit the plain evidence. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#176 Prof. Fate

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 02:13 PM

Hi

Well, remember, philippe, it is us "hair splitters" that get in the way of the greater good of slot racing!

You are bad, I am bad, we do need a benevolent dictator for the greater good!

Fate
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#177 TSR

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 02:20 PM

Hi Rocky!
Dictatorships have rarely been good for maintaining accurate historical records... :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#178 Pete L.

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 05:28 PM

fellas,


Quickly, send me ALL of your ugly unwanted UNIQUE D Type Jaguars for proper disposal ... ;)
Peter J. Linszky

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#179 mdiv

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 05:44 PM

You should see Pete's Manta Ray, it is a beauty :)

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#180 Horsepower

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 06:15 PM

fellas,


Quickly, send me ALL of your ugly unwanted UNIQUE D Type Jaguars for proper disposal ... ;)


:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: Count me in!
Gary Stelter

#181 Horsepower

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 06:19 PM

Hi

Well, remember, philippe, it is us "hair splitters" that get in the way of the greater good of slot racing!

You are bad, I am bad, we do need a benevolent dictator for the greater good!

Fate

PLEASE Rock, don't let the festering, purulent discharge of that OTHER thread seep in here. :blink: :laugh2:

Mike- Is Pete's Manta great because it's a perfect stock example or because it has been done up custom to look amazing?
Gary Stelter

#182 mdiv

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 06:23 PM

It's a Dom's repro body painted with a gold/silver fogging effect, all other parts are original.

I've been searching my files trying to find a picture but nothing has turned up yet.

Mikey

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#183 Pete L.

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 06:36 PM

fellas,

Seems as though I sold all the pictures, I'll have to take some new ones. Thanks for your interest ! :)
Peter J. Linszky

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#184 TSR

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:54 PM

For the ones who want to see what a Classic Manta Ray looks like before someone got to it,
please CLICK HERE. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#185 Horsepower

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 08:05 PM

Well, Pete's sure SOUNDS good! I hope you can find a picture. Thanks for the link to the LASCM Mantas, Dokk. I never knew there were actually 4 issues of this car! :o :D
Gary Stelter

#186 TSR

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 08:11 PM

Gary, most collectors and enthusiasts do not either, and to make you feel better, I did not know myself (and I am SUPPOSED to know EVERYTHING, right? :laugh2: ) until I began analyzing the various issues for the website. They basically got one major change each year they were issued, the biggest of course being the change from the FT36 to the FT36D motors. :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#187 Pete L.

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 09:03 AM

hey,



I knew that ! :D
Peter J. Linszky

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#188 Horsepower

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 11:03 AM

That is amazing. I never cared much for the Manta back in the 60's, always liked the Jaguar because it was a REAL scale car, but it IS a piece of history and I think that motor upgrade was what kept it current enough to keep selling.
Gary Stelter

#189 TSR

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 11:10 AM

Gary,
That's because you have good taste! :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#190 Prof. Fate

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 03:36 PM

Hi

I never bought either car, but somehow I think I have a manta ray in a box somewhere. I THINK my youngest now in his late 20s, bought it!

P and Don and others and I have been having fun with the arguments for a very long time. And while on some case, P sounds angry, I don't think he ever is. I always see his face and .........

In 63, I was only in contact with club racing around the country. Most of them had cars running along the formula of the Jag. Those who have seen my stuff, have seen several cars like this in my collection, all scratchbuilds. Brass plate 703-4-5-6 motors and copies. Most with GF bodies or merit hard bodies. Ecurie Martini, aka Alan Schwartz, has a small collection like this as well.

WE talk about 1/24 club racing before the fad. When I saw my first commerical track, one of my disappointsmnets was that all the races were on BIG tracks where the 704s just ran out of steam. The magnets wern't good enough to support a better wind.

My local track had one "small" 80' track that I won some races with with a 706 sidewinder, but the money was on the fast tracks. Ironically a lot of these pre-fad 704 cars did use the Lindberg bodies, when the RTR came out, it was obsolete.

Philippe, remember the "704" race I used to hold in Vegas on their 6 lane "1/32" track?

Fate
Rocky Russo
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#191 Superbird

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 04:45 AM

Hey guys,

 

My two bits are probably not worth even that much but I figure the Classic Manta Ray was the first "Thingie".

 

I remember as a kid standing agog watching a slew of incredibly fast cars zooming around a huge high-bank track. The track had a black rubber-painted surface with brightly-colored lane lines. The cars skittered and bounced in the turns before flinging themselves down the straight and shooting up around the bank. The cars were many different colors but they were ALL Mantas!

 

None of the other products mentioned in this topic were ever in the same league as Classic's first big-track machine. Powers and Bergman had hit a home run with this futuristic offering and set the bar for others to emulate.   

 

By the way, it is the 50th anniversary of the "Thingie" era. Some friends and I are celebrating with "Manta Ray Reunion" events.

 

Thanks,

Superbird


Pete Shreeves

#192 don.siegel

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 04:37 AM

Not sure if I should dig up this topic, but just ran into another mention of the Manta Ray. There was a monthly newspaper out of California in the mid-60s, called Model Car Racing News, and I thought it might have more coverage of the SoCal-based Classic, so was looking through the magazines and copies I have. However, it was a NorCal based publication, and most articles and ads were local, except for a few like Revell and Monogram. 

 

First, here's the original mention of the Manta Ray in the press, in coverage of the Chicago Hobby Show in Rod & Custom, May 1965. The hobby show was usually early in the year, January or February, to give an idea of timing. 

 

Here's the intro page, where the Manta Ray is announced as starting a new trend: "out of the box and onto the track". Maybe a fine distinction, but it does seem to establish the Manta Ray in the category (altho I still condider the Unique D-Jag as the first "ready to run"). The Jaguar was still part of a hobby - the Manta Ray really announces a mass toy/hobby market. Note on the first page the MPC Scarab, offered as a kit or built-up. 

 

Chicago%20Hobby%20Show-RC0565_zps7hdjvts

 

Classic%20Manta%20Ray%20preview-RC0565_z

 

And here the photo of the Manta Ray, from an article in Model Car Racing News on Classic Speedway in Culver City. It doesn't talk about the relationship with Classic, but the caption on one of the photos says: "Owner Sam Bergman...." and he's the owner of Classic, so... Here's the photo showing off the Manta Ray and that 250-foot Broadcourse track...

 

Classic%20Manta%20Ray%20in%20Speedway-MC

 

Happy holidays all, 

Don 



#193 hiline2

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 04:45 PM

Merry Christmas !

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