28 replies to this topic

[spudboy]

Why haven't commercial racetracks changed in a significant way since the early-mid '60s. Sure, the method used to build now - pioneered by Hasse? - is different than the heavy, paneled tubs that American and other manufacturers made during that era. As much as slotCAR technology changed (and went retro), there have been very few changes to the TRACKS. Refinements might be a more accurate description of them. Think about it - there's digital, BLST, AC, variable lane width, wireless, routed plexi (for HO), soft walls etc. 1/32 home and club racers are on the leading edge of all of this.

Why haven't digital tracks or BLST made inroads into the commercial scene?

To offer my own answer -

expense / though it might actually be cheaper from a materials standpoint the electronic infrastructure might not - i.e. lane changers, power, timing, controllers (for wireless)
it would be too "hard" / wimps
people might want to feel "ownership" of their own lane
it's not an ideal system for rental/parties / a legitimate issue for a commercial track owner
inertia

It just seems to me that something has been left behind. If I were an active 1/24 model car racer running flat tracks I'd be dyin' to race on a high-tech BLST track. There is potential for more track length and a less generic, more realistic racing experience. I would think it could be a blast with retro cars, too. Scale cars? Wing cars - well they're a different beast entirely.

So, your thoughts please.

[Tex]

You're reasons why not seem adequate.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Nate, I work for Model Car Racing magazine which promotes all that stuff. I also do HO and 1/24. But I don't do DIGITAL because, simply, it is for toy track racing.

Digital: actually there are FOUR digital 1/24 systems I know about; all are mutually incompatable. Once upon a time a racer could drive around the world hitting race tracks and know the car would work. NOW with eight different 1/32 digital systems and four different 1/24, those segments are marginalizing themselves. In essence, you know about them locally, because they are not drawing racers out of group.

"Variable lane spacing" is only good for breaking cars.

"Cost" you clearly have no idea what the costs of various 1/24 cars are.

The rest just show you don't get out.

Fate

[Mark Wampler]

Probably one word, TRADITION.

The biggest improvement was the removal of humps down American raceway tracks.

Chemical dependent tracks are not so good, but good for tire manufacturers who need to sell tires.

[Guy Spaulding]

There maybe something to say about: "When you get it right, why change it"?

Sure, various improvements have been tried, like different type of wood, press-board, Formica surfaces, copper tape instead of braid, different kinds of paint, and most whatever else you might imagine.

One of the most interesting "hidden" upgrades I've seen, is the use of a ferrous braid material that allows use of magnets in the cars. Though the track I saw with this technology only used magnets in their rental cars, and it was GREAT for that purpose. I applaud the track owner disallowing magnets in their racing classes. Personally, (don't hit me) I think magnets ruined HO racing.

You can be certain, there always will be "something" out there that hasn't been tried yet, but the primary reason for there being little change seen in track technology, is because they got it right, and there is no reason to change.

[Pablo]

I think it's an excellent question. I would love to run on a clean, modern racetrack.

[Ramcatlarry]

I agree with Fate, Digital is more of a game and less about racing. Power is very limited by the system, and all the systems cater to make their own system money instead of promoting racing in the purest sense. It is not broke and does not need to be fixed.

[Cheater]

There is one improvement I wish we could make: to develop tires that don't need spray glue to provide sufficient traction. That would be a real enhancement to the hobby, especially if the tires were longer-lasting than regular foam rubber tires.

Regarding digital, the manufacturers themselves killed any chance for the 1/24 hobby to ever move in that direction when they adopted closed, proprietary systems. It's a shame that slot racing didn't have an NMRA-style organization to promote digital interoperability, as happened in model railroading.

[Marty Stanley]

Cheater,

Didn't they call them silicone tires back in the day?

[MrWeiler]

The biggest improvement was the removal of humps down American raceway tracks.

Not for me Mark...I like the vertical turns. I just change my driving pattern. Bumpy be good for Mike. I won two USRA races on Bellflowers "sorta King" track...

The new smooth, high-banked king tracks are boring. Model trains on steroids.

[Marty Stanley]

Hoo-Rah!

I always love to hear of someone else that likes to have 'character' in a racing surface! It does take a bit more skill to negotiate, but that's what real racers do, make their car work on the racing surface they have to deal with on the day of the race.

One of my favorite tracks to race on is in Holly Hill Florida at The Race Place. It is a custom made track and it is very unique. It is a 'replica' of the Daytona International Speedway, which is about 10 minutes down the road from The Race Place. With the infield "switched in" it is a very challenging road course. The "Finger" turn leads into a left hand dogleg that is immediately followed by a drop away straightaway. The wreck starts as you come out of the "Finger" turn. If you don't get the car settled down there, you will hit the wall at the bottom of the hill every time. Yep, it sure does take some getting used to.

However, it does add another skill element to racing on this track as well as setting the car up. Once you leave the infield you have 110 feet of high banked turns - just like Daytona - before you start into the 64 foot infield course that takes a lot of intensity to run quickly.

Yep, that's racing.

[Bill from NH]

Didn't they call them Silicone tires back in the day?

Marty,

I raced on silicone tires exclusively from 1967-69 because the trackowners in ME at the time "didn't want to get their tracks dirty." If a track wasn't dust-free before you ran, it was driving them on ice. Most silicone tires "chunked" real easy so you were always buying new tires. The Cox Sil-slicks provided some of the best traction, but they were one of the brands that "chunked " the worst.

I'd rather see us move in the direction of silicone-coated sponge tires, much like some of the clubs use.

[spudboy]

Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.

Note, it was not my intention to lobby on behalf of digital. BUT it WAS my intention to ask why we haven't observed all the changes in the hobby and attempted to apply some that could make sense in the commercial environment.

Yes, the digital scene is a proprietary mess. It is better suited to a club track than a commercial track. But a clever guy could build a *very* cool 1/24 track using new technologies. DDA's Spa BLST is an example of what can be done. Here is his track (and it's not even finished). See HERE or search YouTube for more info.



Is there not potential here? Would you not be the least bit curious to try a few laps on it?

If you can't tolerate the notion of a digital track perhaps you could get on board for Euregio Raceway's Spa track. More photos HERE.



It's built for model car racers but wouldn't a retro or "scale" car be a blast to race on this track?

Marty, thanks for the terrific photo! You are lucky to have such a cool track nearby! A great example of "outside of the box" thinking.

Mike, humps wouldn't necessarily put me off either.

[MrWeiler]

Mike, humps wouldn't necessarily put me off either.

Thanks! One of the 1:1 scale racetracks I'd like to drive on is Laguna Seca. Uphill, downhill, a blind rise into the corkscrew, flat corners, banked corners. Laguna looks like fun.

Why not the same kinda track in slots?

Standing next to a fully-banked King and holding the controller fully punched lap after lap and watching the lap counter is not my idea of "driving".

[don.siegel]

One thing you don't mention is that modern commercial cars are just too fast for the current digital systems. I haven't seen the BLST in action, but I've raced on Davic systems, which are great for what they are, but the lane change devices are probably not fast enough for most commercial 1/24 cars.

Nonetheless, I've always thought a NASCAR type oval with maybe 16D powered cars would be great as a digital lane-change system.

And despite the incompatibility, which is pretty dumb on the part of manufacturers, digital is probably inevitable, at least from what I've seen in Europe.

Tires do exist that don't need treatment - urethane, hard foam (like on the White Point cars) - but since spongies still offer the highest performance, guess that won't change...

Don

[SlowBeas]

There is one improvement I wish we could make: to develop tires that don't need spray glue to provide sufficient traction. That would be a real enhancement to the hobby, especially if the tires were longer-lasting than regular foam rubber tires.

I know I'm doing nothing more than thinking aloud, but that's where innovation typically originates...

Why can't we find a softer surface for the track itself, providing a little more traction than a cold, dusty hard piece of wood or plastic? Maybe such a top surface would be easier on tires while providing glue-free racing. Geesh, a harder/treated set of tires might last an entire season!

Consider a track made from recycled auto tires, much like they use in playgrounds or track and field events. Those surfaces are extremely durable.

Again, I'm just thinking aloud. And there must be a very good reason why no one has considered producing such a surface.

[tonyp]

And there must be a very good reason why no one has considered producing such a surface.

$$$$$$$

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

I didn't want to bring up my pet peeves about DAVIC. Lets see, Heavy Euro Scale (good) but limited to NC1 motors because any faster and the system is a crash fest. AND THEN, they need "judges" because the cars are always hitting each other and... wait for it... and... the judges decide if the hit was "fair" or not!

Most other 1/32 digital systems have a similar problem with the unintended encounters.

Until it is as universal and easy as regular slots, it isn't "the wave of the future" or "inevitable".

Ironically, there are similar R/C 1/24 and 1/32 systems that work BETTER on a slot track with a simple pin "guide" and crossovers everywhere. I raced something like this with the old Tamiya 1/24s, Most R/C has people plowing into the barriers and needing more "marshals" than a track. A track with slot/pin/crossover solves the problem and made excellent racing.

Well, except for how fragile the running gear was of the Tamiya cars.

Anyway, it isn't that these "new" ideas haven't been done and done, it is that they are not practical for average people.

An example is the surface. Back in 1960, I think it was Popular Mechanics magazine had an article on a slot car group in Upstate New York running Southport rules. Back then a lot of us were converting Merit and Strombecker 1/24 kits to slot cars using railroad motors. The problem was the tires. Mostly we did things like Veco airplane tires cut to fit. A couple years later, '62, I used USAF embedding silicone to cast tires that worked. But in 1960, this New York group covered the track surface with a thin sheet of rubber!

Fate

[BackAgain]

But in 1960, this New York group covered the track surface with a thin sheet of rubber!

What would be the point in trying to attain that much grip? You may as well cut a 'T' slot with a guide to suit....then install the biggest magnet you can find....
Be just like Mike says....

Standing next to a fully-banked King and holding the controller fully punched lap after lap and watching the lap counter is not my idea of "driving".

[don.siegel]

What would be the point in trying to attain that much grip?

You must not be familiar with the tires available back then!

Actually, I think it was a foam rubber surface, and is shown in the 1963 book called Table-Top Car Racing.

You're right to a point, Rocky, about Davic and the other systems: you still need marshalls and a director to determine the "stop & go" penalties for bumping, etc. - and that's one of the reasons that I stopped going to the races here in Paris. But as people get more experienced these lessen quite a bit, and a lot of people still like the digital experience - but not a lot of us older pharts.

And most racing is at home, where it's a lot of fun bumping your younger brother off the track...

Don

[Alchemist]

Nate,

Thanks for sharing the link to DDA's home track - that's a real nice track to have at home! Do you know of any video links that show the cars running on the track please?

Thank you.

[Alchemist]

Wow! I just found videos of DDa's track and the cars racing. It sure looks realistic. Awesome!!

Here's the links:



http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[BackAgain]

You must not be familiar with the tires available back then!

Actually, I think it was a foam rubber surface, and is shown in the 1963 book called Table-Top Car Racing.

Don

I first started racing slotcars back in the early sixties Don....the second car I purchased was a Cox Chaparral...I really don't recall having a lot of problems with tires or grip....cars slid of course....but that was part of the fun and skill.
I wish I could replicate that grip on my current track.....

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Paul The cox tires were MAGIC compared to what we had in 1960!

Most groups used the hard rubber tires that came in model car kits. Some were taking model airplane tires which came from Veco on really small hubs that could be hogged out to fit a rim, narrowed and chopped to work.

I was the only person I knew for years casting in silicone. But trust me, any cox tire was several times better than anything we had in '60 that was stock out of a box.

Fate

[BackAgain]

Hi Rocky....I can't argue with you on the grip of the Cox tires...they were in a class of their own.
My first car however, was a hardbody Buick Wildcat 1/24th.
I have no idea of what tires I ran on it or even what chassis was under it.....waaaaay too long ago. I do know it has a 16D in it and I recall putting a lot of weight in it, trying to get some grip....I also remember it used to slide very well through the donut and was quite controllable.
Since I was still at school in those days, the budget was tight so I didn't have the money to experiment with tires.