56 replies to this topic

[Pechuga_VLC]

If I say that in front of collectors of exin, Phillip, they cut my head.

In France were:

Jaguar D red, blue.
TR Ferrari red blue.
Jaguar E red blue and black.
Ferrari Berlinetta red blue and black.
BRM blue.
Ford GT MK1 white.
Lotus MK19 green, red.
Porsche RS-61 white.
AC Cobra red
Porsche 904 GTS yellow
Cheetah: white, yellow, orange, red, blue.
Dino Ferrari red.



Alpine Renault yellow, red, blue.
Citroën SM: yellow, red.

and possibly some more but just get insurance.

[Pechuga_VLC]

To end, the Spaniards.



Jaguar D red, blue.
TR Ferrari red, blue.
Jaguar E red, black.
Ferrari Berlinetta red, black
Porsche RS-61 white.
Lotus MK19 green, blue.
White Ford GT
Cooper white, yellow, red, blue.
Indy racer white, blue
BRM blue.

Your list of Spaniards, not taking into account color tones and if it was perfect, congratulations.

if you need to see a photo you ask me.

[TSR]

If I say that in front of collectors of exin, Phillip, they cut my head.

Jose, it is because they are FREAKS! Tell them to get a life...

[Pechuga_VLC]

[Pechuga_VLC]

Now I will try to convince you that in Spain and France were manufactured Strombecker.

I've been studying the issue, I have collected many catalogs, a lot of information but not all good, sometimes catalogs such as French officials show pictures of American units. Sometimes an earlier model was then later imported manufactured ... this creates a lot of confusion.

But there are things that are not deceptive:

The first is the golden rule: a mold can not be in 2 places at the same time.

The second spot is the study of the cars of the same production.


Phillipe, I have slot cars from Paya, if I say to an American collector of Strombecker that those cars were made in America, take a dip.

I have some cases of defective plastic (the plastic used is not the same, it is of worse quality), has been used glue not suitable colors exclusive injection into the body, assembling pieces wrong, omissions of some parts for assembly, changes in pieces, some trace exclusive.

I have an official bibliography of the mark, I have transformers with the brand made in Spain and tracks with the stamp "made in Spain.

My material from France is not so much, but it is the same case.

This photos are but not my, it come of Vertigo team slot page :

http://groups.msn.co...mp;PhotoID=7790

http://groups.msn.co...mp;PhotoID=7792

But tell me exactly what materials you need to change their minds because they would have to photograph and scan. There's even material that I do not have but what I found.

http://groups.msn.co...mp;PhotoID=7541

http://groups.msn.co...mp;PhotoID=7542

[Pechuga_VLC]

Phillipe, some of the very few collectors Strombecker-Paya Brothers (I know less than 10) are going to have a meeting imminently in Ibi (Alicante) within a month or two, it is fair to the people where they were manufactured in the Spanish Strombecker Factory brothers Paya.

It's going to be a unique opportunity for anyone with questions or they can be transferred to one of the members of this meeting.

It will be impossible to collect all collectors, but will try to attend one of the sons of the brothers Paya, one of the grandchildren of the children of brothers Paya, a son of the company that was painting small pieces and other small Paya work for the brothers. In addition of course to other collectors.

Of course I can not address questions like: Is Strombecker manufactured in Spain? because it would cause laughter.


If anyone needed any photo or any official catalog or even an article of the time I have access to it except for ads that I hope to get soon.

If anyone any photos of cars (some even in its original box) do not hesitate to ask.

[TSR]

Jose,
I can only base my conclusions to the evidence from the Shure brothers at Dowst. According to them, ALL parts were molded in the USA and then exported to France and Spain for assembly.
However one could believe that track and transformers could have been produced in Europe to save shipping costs because it would make more sense. Now were NEW molds made for the track? Sounds a bit expensive but Paya was a wealthy company then, so who knows.
This could only have happened at the very beginning of Strom'Bolid in France or Paya in Spain, because it is very clear that only early specific models were assembled in these countries, and only for racing sets. The 1963-64 "white box" and 1966 "color box" kits as well as all the subsequent RTR cars were imported.
It would be interesting to see what kind of packaging did Stromb'Bolid and Paya used for loose early cars, if they were the same type as in the USA (rather poor quality black and brown cardboard bases with clear acetate tops) that could have been printed in French and Spanish??? I vaguely remember a smaller white box with red printing for the french versions, and that from about 1961 or 1962.
Either way, it matters little.

[Pechuga_VLC]

I think I can respond to whatever questions ... but I need a little time to put all the cards on the table.

Wait a bit please ...

[Pechuga_VLC]

Relationship between Strombecker and France. Part 1.

Material relating to stamps "Strom'bolid of Dowst, with license Strombecker" with the following address:
45 rue de Lisbonne, Paris 8th.

dating 1963.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The first test has a dates back striking appearance: the journal of comic-france-Belgian origin "Spirou" exhibits a half-page ad in only 2 of their numbers.

# Spirou magazine number 1337, page 42, dated 28.11.63
# Spirou magazine number 1340, page 42, dated 19.12.63

My conclusions are very clear, the purpose of such ads targeted to comic magazines for children and adolescents just shortly after Christmas.

But the final date is given by the article by Toys & Noveltys 1.7.65 about an interview with the president of Strombecker. Don has hung down the interview.


As for the material found from this period:




# 2 Spirou magazine ads Strom'bolid
# Strom'bolid catalog (1963) In French and German.
# Fare prices in French and French francs.
# Sets 9950 and 9960 with a cover of Strom'bolid and numbers 5 and 6 respectively.
# Customkits same as the Americans 62-63, but a blue and a little more clear with the logo Strom'bolid. In the case of the Ferrari or Jaguar D TR include a pamphlet common assembly instructions in English and French languages, whereas in the case of Berlinetta Ferrari and Jaguar E is the same. It is possible that Cooper and Indy too ... in fact I have seen units in France but I could not see that until now had the logo of Strom'bolid and leaflet folded into French.
# another material with the logo Strom'bolid, as the record "sounds of road racings" or Ackermann guide in French.



My opinion: EVERYTHING on this stage is imported. Only the catalogs and cardboard packaging of the facts come in France.

[TSR]

Jose, I agree 100% on this scenario so far.

[Pechuga_VLC]

Relationship between Strombecker and France. Part 2

Material interchangeably with the seal of Strom'bolid or as Strombecker, while, from USA all come a months later with the "R" of copyricht of Strombecker Corporation.

The French partner of Strombecker continues to have the address 45 rue de Lisbonne, Paris 8th.

Dating: 1964 - 7/8.65

-------------------------------------------------- ---

In a 1964 article signed by Jose Rodriguez Jr. Model of car "from the Beginning, the Strombecker history", which certainly can be consulted online through the pages of Greg Holland, is perfectly Dowst suffers as a re-organization. The company has the following divisions: Tootsie Toys, Strombecker and recently absorbed Model Road Racing.

It is important to note that at this stage we will find the brand of Strombecker Corporation with the "R" of Copyricht.

It is the moment like a mentioning of Inside Track, the 2nd era of the magazine included within the circuit, as its name suggests, exactly in Volume 1 No 4. for July-August 1965, which is cited as being producing the preliminaries of the European championships, like the "Strombecker International championsship." European cities are chosen France-Belgian or French, relying on occasions where there are American military bases.


OK, during this second season fuerons of gradually replacing the name of the Strom'bolid of Strombecker.
The final date is given by the article by Toys & Noveltys 1.7.65 about an interview with the president of Strombecker. Don has hung down the interview.

Let's look at the material from this period:



The material for this season is:

# Strom'bolid catalog / Strombecker (1964?) In the following languages: English, French, German, Italian.

# Strombecker catalog (1965?) in French.

# Inside Track Volume 1, number 4, 7/8.1965 in english. Although it is an American magazine, an article on the series of European competition ... There are 2 pictures and one of them you can see perfectly well how to use the posters in the name of Strom'bolid and Strombecker.


In my opinión : at this stage, ALL the equipment is still imported. The only thing the French really are some catalogs and instruction sheet. But there will be an imminent change ...

[Pechuga_VLC]

I stop to take a little air.

Meanwhile ... Phillipe, the catalog of Strom'bolid you were talking in red-white is the picture above, right? .

You or anyone feel free to ask me the scanning of any material you may have.

By the way, Greg Holland has all the top table topic, and Inside Track (minus 3) at your page so they can be consulted.

I forgot to comment that all these dates are also checked to verify effectively as there is no anachronism with the material of each catalog.



At the moment I do not think that we have different opinions, because until now we are of the same opinion that there is no manufacturing ... it is from now when we will start an interesting discussion.

A little while ...

[don.siegel]

Here's some more information for you, from the July 1965 issue of a trade magazine, Toys & Novelties.
Don

[Pechuga_VLC]

Oh my God Don, this article is ... absolutely fantastic, a thousand thanks! .

I was not aware of its existence and has a lot of things and dates! . Definitely is demonstrated in the manufacture of Strombecker France : " However, not all of Strombecker´s material is the same on both sides of Ocean " .

My God, they used the name of Strom'bolid simply by the " good-sound " of a word to change it back again fully to Strombecker name. This is insane.

OK, I have already re-edited the new information obtained, especially, I have set the dates and others.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I stop to take a little air.

anyone feel free to ask me the scanning of any material you may have.

By the way, Greg Holland has all the top table topic magazine and Inside Track (minus 3) at your page so they can be consulted.

I forgot to comment that all these dates are also checked to verify effectively as there is no anachronism with the material of each catalog.

And now continuing with the 3rd party ... a little patience, this is where to start manufacturing in France ...

[TSR]

Jose,
Great stuff indeed, but it still does not show any PROOF or even EVIDENCE of such products actually manufactured in France of Spain... or even in... Canada where it seems more plausible. The cost of duplicate tooling would have been huge, and there was little reason to spend the money except for the heavy track pieces.
I still believe that only the track was actually manufactured there, as well as packaging and transformers, but I am still very skeptical about the actual cars, and of course totally sure that as soon as the 1966 line (their best product by far) was released, only importing was done by then. Of course, close inspection of actual "French" or "Spanish" parts and direct comparison with US parts would be the only way to find out for sure.

[Pechuga_VLC]

Until the summer of 1965 I think like you: all the material was imported.

It is from the summer of 1965 when France will switch from imported material and material produced.

Attention to the next chapter 3.

[Pechuga_VLC]

Relationship between Strombecker and France. Part 3

Strombecker_France.

Rumilly 45 ( France )

Dating : after Summer 1965 - 1968.

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During this period changes the direction of Rumilly (France), although near the border with Switzerland.

That is where exactly is headquartered "JOUET Mont Blanc", the French partner of Strombecker. Its logo appears in many places ... Catalogs, advertising slot cars, boxed RTR 1:24 or even a key chain in which each side has the logos of Strombecker Jouet and Mont Blanc.

During this period, use totally abandoned by the Strom'bolid of Strombecker, although everything is signed as "Strombecker_France."

Let's talk of the material found at this stage:



# Strombecker_France sets themselves in French.
# Processors Strombecker_France in French.
# Tracks made in France.
# RTR transparent boxes with blue background in French, with a sheet of advertising and instructions on how to put them in the languages: English, French, Italian and Dutch.
# Strombecker_France catalog (1966?) In French.
# Strombecker_France catalog (1967?) In French.
Instruction Booklet # mount circuit (1967?) In French.
# Word of the then president of Strombecker Corporation we are confident the relationship between Strombecker Jouets and Mont Blanc in the manufacture of Strombecker.



My opinion:

Strombecker intend to manufacture in France is already proven by the article, just goes to show the ultimate test, the desired stamp "made in France." OK, here it is ... I have tracks with straight lines and entry to flow with such style.




I think this already happened in the year 1966, and in terms of slot cars ... prove that they are manufactured in France and not in the USA is extremely difficult because they have no style and the cars were made along the same lines ... But there is no perfect crime ... look at the following picture:



This is a Ferrari Berlinetta turquoise blue, not dark blue of the cars from Chicago, not light blue.

It is turquoise blue of Rumilly 1966.


I know you're not in favor of collecting colors, neither do I, but for cataloging and research is essential to know which colors are common and which do not.

The colors we know all the usual ... perhaps not unusual ...

The case of Ferrari Berlinetta turquoise is not the only strange case ... There are at least TR Ferrari, Jaguar E BRM and turquoise too.

Other exemple of the festival of colors is completed by Lotus MK19 red.

It is important to note that these cars with unusual colors, just disappear from the USA catalogs catalogs to appear in France.

(A mold can not be at the same time in 2 places)




There is a very spectacular event that sums up everything this stage:

in some units of the Bugatti circuit of Strombecker_Francia, there are 2 BRM's, however in a catalog of alleged 1968 or 1969 (which by the way, but I unfortunately do not have been able to see) one of them was quoted as BRM (actually a BRM red imported from USA) while the other F.1 is cited as "Valliant," really a BRM turquoise French with the mold modified to have a fictitious exhaust pipe, so that we do not have exhaust pipes that should have. I am speaking therefore of a change of mold or an extra bit, a change that took place in France

[Pechuga_VLC]

Relationship between Strombecker and France. Part 4

Strombecker_France.

Rumilly 45 ( France )

Dating : after Summer 1968- 70´s.

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In 1968 a new change comes from America, is finally making stops from Chicago and manufacturing is becoming more dispersed through the world. It is already known that all or most engines were of Japanese origin and more and more components such as metal chassis will come from Japan while the plastic parts (body and chassis of the common black plastic) are injected into Hong Kong.

The witness of Chicago is taken over by Montreal (Canada), from 1963 until the time was a mere subsidiary importer, after 1968 will have more significance despite a lack of indigenous manufacture, assembly and perhaps safer packaging (black boxes RTR).

All these changes in America coincide with the reception of oscar toy Strombecker_France French in 1968.

It makes no sense to be given the oscar of the toy to a French brand that only mattered to pieces, assembled and packaged ... oscar that is related to the industry.

I have not commented but in France no longer have the molds for cars: Ferrari TR, Jaguar D Berlinetta Ferrari, Jaguar E, Porsche RS-61, Lotus MK19, Ford GT, Indy Racer, Cooper GP. BRM GP.

These molds received in 1965 from approximately U.S. and ordered to turn around Ibi in 1967, but that's another story.

In addition, France is sending a second mold around the end of 1967-1968. In such molds are: Porsche 904 GTS, AC Cobra, Cheetah, Ferrari GT. These cars are primarily for the circutos although some, especially the latter can be found in a box RTR ... is the same as the Canadian but in black).

Besides there is a great exchange of material with two-way between the 2 main venues along the Atlantic (and indeed a marginal exchange between France and Spain, but this is not the subject). Indeed all other cars sold: Chaparral, Can Am etc are imported.

There is a third of the material, namely the Citroën SM and Renault Alpine A310 that since about 1970 is also manufactured in France, with the difference that the selection and design of such cars body is a thing of France, not America.

Other things such as Ski-Bob, Sidecars and a horrible last F.1 I have not studied ... I sincerely acknowledge that little interest me.


I will comment on the material of this era :



# Strombecker_France catalog (1968?) In French.
# Strombecker_France catalog (1970?) In French.
# (By the way I am missing 2 catalogs and 2 pamphlets from this period)
# Strombecker_France sets in French
# American slot cars imported into France (Chaparrals, Can Am ... etc) mostly in black box RTR French, but also on the circuit.
# American slot cars injected in France (Porsche 904 GTS, AC Cobra, Cheetah, Ferrari GT) mostly in September of the last car circuit but I've come to see on occasion in black box RTR French.
# France injected slot cars in France (Renault Alpine A310 Citröen SM). Likewise for sets of circuit RTR black box and French.


The colors of injection Porsche 904 French are always yellow, a little more intense in the first units and later a little less. In the AC Cobra French are always red. Ferrari are in the red and yet as we have seen distinguishable. In the Cheetah is a festival of colors.

Later the Alpine A310 in three colors and the Citroën SM in red or yellow.

[Pechuga_VLC]

I realize that a simple difference in color or tone of course was not enough to believe that something was done in one country or another, but the base has not been a difference but other reasons, interviews, contrast data, etc. and above all the study material in hand.

Fortunately, the fantastic article by Don what makes everything very clear.


Well, here until the deliveries of the relationship between France and Strombecker.

If anyone has been wanting to check any data, information or a photo of a car, you might know or be able to achieve it. Now is the time.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to try to control for other replicas in case anyone does not have one clear ...

in the case of Lionel could also make a survey as they verify and 2 copies to Strombecker.

You can also do a study with Estrela ... unfortunately I do not have any on hand but I have reviewed the dates and Phillipe, I am afraid that it will be impossible to be original, I think we are going to have to be copies, but without being able to say what I give 100% there.

The same with the relationship between Mexico and Strombecker, I can say that the 5 are copies.

If anyone is interested in the adventure of Strombecker in Spain ... I have license fees, catalogs, books in general, circuit, stretches of track, transformers, slot cars, personal interviews with ex-workers of the factory Paya, or descendants of those who worked for companies Paya or even up to 4 descendants Paya.


I think it is so many things ... that too, there are things that I can not tell.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incidentally, I have pending a meeting on Dec. 13.

If you think someone is a question you want to make one of the sons of the brothers Paya, I get it, it will be a unique opportunity! .

[TSR]

Jose,
I agree with some but not all of your research. If there was never any doubt in my mind that the track was produced in France after 1965, as well as printing and manufacturing of packing, all the actual manufacturing of the cars was done first in Illinois, then in Toronto, Canada, the parts then sent to France and Spain. This remained to the end, and the remaining inventories was sold to REH in Cincinnati, Ohio, that sold it until just a few years ago.

Once the tooling for the "good" bodies (Lotus 30, McLaren, McKee, Chaparral 2...) was sent to Hong Kong for manufacturing the "monocoque" versions with the new Mabuchi toy motor that later became the FC series motor, all bets are off.

I was in Toronto in 1976 to design the Cox HO car for General Mills, that owned Strombecker for a while as well as the rights to Eldon and Cox in Canada. There were the SM and Alpine cars sitting on desks in offices. I asked about what they were and was told that they were still manufacturing such cars to sell in sets to department stores in Canada...

[Pechuga_VLC]

Dowst had contract partner to 50 % with Mont Blanc and Strombecker made of France (1965-197?).

Dowst had the same type of contract with Brothers Payá and they made Strombecker of Spain (1967-1970).

Even every part(report) of the same car can have a different origin, for what the work of investigation(research) has to go not to the entire set or to the entire car but to piece to piece.

This is tremendously complicated, because the origin can be USA, Canada, Hong Kong, Japan, France, Spain.

Certainly that I assume that I can have mistakes, in fact I am sure that I have because this investigation(research) is very complicated.

A simply example : interior Alpine-Renault can white or beige ...
If both are compared, there is denoted that the manufacture of these cars is different, or different hands ... or different epochs ... or different countries

[Will Richardson]

Trying to read through all this, my mind has turned to jelly!   But most interesting-thanks guys.

[TSR]

Actually, José Villalba Ureña is possibly the world's greatest expert about Strombecker products, and I tip my hat to his incredible knowledge.

Strombecker also was, between 1961 and 1968, the world's largest slot car manufacturer of 1/24 and 1/32 scale used in raceways or home racing sets.
Production numbers were huge, even if exceeded in single model production by some of the cars made by Cox or Classic.

In fact, only Aurora production numbers in the HO scale exceeded Strombecker figures during those years.

[Phil Smith]

 

Strombecker also was, between 1961 and 1968, the world's largest slot car manufacturer of 1/24 and 1/32 scale used in raceways or home racing sets.

 

Philippe, I had no idea they were that big. I always thought they were a minor player in the '60s slot car world.

[TSR]

Phil,
there were "under the radar" companies dealing in slot cars, that produced huge amounts of the stuff; Eldon, Marx sold a zillion RTRs racing sets and kits under the Sears, White Front and other large department stores names. They were generally rather inferior devices to the ones we love (well, Eldon and Marx have their fans too), but at far lower prices than Cox, Monogram, even AMT devices.
The first series of Strombecker sets sold by the old Strombeck-Becker company were quite expensive, because they did not have modernized assembly facilities. Once Dowst Manufacturing Co. bought their assets in 1962, prices remained stable, so by 1966 at the very top of the hobby, they were more expensive than the lower end, but not by much, and their earlier series cars and sets sold in huge numbers. Simply, us hobbyists, did not make much of it because we cared for "better stuff".
The $$$ numbers that were given to me by the son of one of the three brothers who owned Dowst in the 1960s were rather impressive. Of course when the whole mess collapsed in 1967, and when Dowst had to buy back over $1M (in 1967 dollars) worth of unsold merchandise from Sears, that sure made a hole in the finances and effectively killed Strombecker, which only survived from their Canadian and French subsidiaries for a while.
Dowst liquidated their inventories at pennies on the dollar and returned to their former core business, that of making "Tootsietoy" die-cast little mongrels of toy cars, sold in dime stores for 50-cent a shot.