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The Duffy Diaries #1: Vanwall


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#1 Duffy

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 05:37 PM

It's like this: as I've been pushing Rick Thigpen towards Lost Causes, so has he shoved me kicking and screaming towards "Peryod-Korrekt" builds, going so far as to toss PK parts & bits my way to get me started. I figure it's Time...

It started with this '58 Vanwall, repopped by Howmet from a Fate contribution, a body so amiably corpulent that I just had to put it out on the track and let the Fast Guys gape! (There're stories about Colin Chapman making snarky comments about this car, anybody wanna chime in?)

VanBod1.jpg

And I have an assortment of inline motors and stock chasses to pick from; most likely I'll do a pretty generic build of boughten parts around this nice Aristo-Craft mill from Rick.

VanMill1.jpg

... with Russkit rims all around; Revell Dunlops on the front, hewn-down Germans on the back.

VanWheels1.jpg

But, what really got this one going, though, is the happy combination of this photo--

VanMoss2.jpg

- And this 1/24 driver!!

VanMoss1.jpg

Sometime this week, inbetween my obligatory visit to the track (I try to get over there at least twice between major glacial episodes) and my tax audit, I'm gonna take casts of this head and body and stuff Mossie into his new office. THIS is the part I really live for! Keep y'all posted.

Duffy
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#2 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 05:43 PM

That driver looks like he has been 'exhumed' from the grave... :laugh2:

Nothing a little body putty won't cure.

Always like the looks of the Vanwall... reminded me of an Indy roadster.

LM

#3 Joe Mig

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 05:51 PM

Duffy: I could cut and mount the German rubber if you want me to. :D
Joseph Migliaccio. Karma it's a wonderful thing.

"Drive it like you're in it!!!"

"If everything feels under control... you are not going fast enough!"

Some people are like Slinkies... they're really good for nothing... but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

#4 Duffy

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 06:02 PM

That driver looks like he has been 'exhumed' from the grave...Nothing a little body putty won't cure.

Yah, for once the camera is NOT kind. It's a tiny scale, though, and I'll fill in my first cast to get a better mould. This original's not for prepping. It's a one-off that John Bacon did for Rocky Russo, the Mille Miglia Mercedes with Moss & Jenkinson:

Merc300SLR Moss Jenks.jpg

I'll see about cleaning up my dub, but the rough-cut original really captures the look of the two instantly. Maybe just fill in the pits & let it alone after that.

Duffy: I could cut and mount the German rubber if you want me to.

Thanks, I'm tooling up for this, too. Just slightly beyond the Lost Cause Tech Rule of "Anything attainable by a twelve-year-old boy with his Dad's hand drill" but still reasonable. I'll post pics when it happens.
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#5 idare2bdul

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:11 AM

The Mille Miglia Mercedes with Moss & Jenkinson is just too cool for words.
The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
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#6 dc-65x

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:11 AM

Hi Mikey,

Man that Vanwall looks like it turned out really nice :wub: . Vov, you done good again :) ! Can’t wait for “Da Box” to show up.

Have fun Duffy and thanks for sharing,

Kaptain (somewhat) Korrrect

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#7 TSR

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:55 AM

(There're stories about Colin Chapman making snarky comments about this car, anybody wanna chime in?)

I don't see why since Chapman was involved in its engineering.
Frank Costin designed its very efficient body, and the car won the constructor title for UK, the first British car to ever do so.
The Vanwall (name composed from owner Tony Vanderwell and "Thinwall", the name of its engine bearings that equipped virtually all GP engines then) was the best GP car in 1957 and 1958, period. Its four-cylinder engine was derived from the cylinder head design from the Norton Manx motorcycle.

Tony Brooks, Stirling Moss, Maurice Trintignant and Stewart Lewis-Evans were the Vanwall regular drivers.

MRRC made the first Vanwall slot car bodies in the form of a vacuum formed 1/32 scale model in 1958.

#8 Prof. Fate

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:40 PM

Hi,

I think Duffy was thinking in terms of a geek account I gave him about the aero thinking that crowd was going through in the era. Costin was obsessed with smooth airflow (somehow not "seeing" the suspension and tires sticking out) and Chapman followed with the "mini-Vanwal" in the form of the Lotus 16. Which was a failure. Then went to the 18 which had no pretense of working for a smooth airflow. And his detractors called the 18 a "breadbox on wheels".

In the day, My Vanwall had a 36D!

Bob Schliecher and Ron Knight both had one with Pittman 704s.

Fate
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#9 dc-65x

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:24 PM

Hey Duffy,

Fate’s given you something to think about there. That V-wall is BIG! Maybe stuff it with some big honker of a motor??? The Aristo would fit a lot of smaller cars that the big honker motors won't.

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#10 Duffy

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 04:33 PM

Hm. Yah, the little inlines do look kind of comical in there, and I got a couple of more reasonable GP cars I could apply them to. I was taking an easy way out last night.

704, huh?

Hm. I must think on this.

Duffy
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#11 TSR

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 04:38 PM

... and Chapman followed with the "mini-Vanwal" in the form of the Lotus 16. Which was a failure.

It was unreliable in the day, but today it is the car to have if you want to win in the front-engine class. With their 2.5 Climax engines, they simply clean the clock of any Maserati 250F or Ferrari V6 or V12 clones. :)

You can make a nice one using the Scalextric vintage body, but it is too large for a true 1/32 scale model.

#12 Duffy

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 05:41 PM

In addition to thinking three impossible things before breakfast, it seems I can engineer at least two outrageous structures before cooking dinner, and my family's getting mighty frustrated with it. But, ya know...

... Holding up different mills to that arguably-slippery shape, I find I can land a 704 or a DC-222 right in there, sure; BUUUUT, if I can bear to hang the spur gear outside the body, I could get a 36D in there, SIDEWAYS. Howz' ZAT?? Yup, I could do a "Brassed-Off Dynamic" just like Pablo, 65x et al are doing!!

"Just wait'll you see the weird part."

Duffy
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#13 don.siegel

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 05:36 AM

Duffy,

If you want to see what a 704 setup looks like in one of these cars, here's a period Porsche F2, probably built by Robert Schleicher in fact. It's got a modified 704, or maybe even a 703... A vac-form body, possibly Stormer. No speed demon, but goes pretty well.

Don

Posted Image

Posted Image

#14 Prof. Fate

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:30 AM

Hi,

The weight is too tidy for Bob's work! He would just melt solder around the chassis then... and you could still see parts of the coil. Might be Ron Knight's effort.

Also, it is in Rob Walker's colors, and I don't think Bob would do that either. It would have been in orange, knowing Bob. No point in ASKING, though. Bob doesn't remember things like this. In the past when someone asks, he asks ME if he did it!

Grin.

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#15 TSR

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:13 PM

Bob doesn't remember things like this.

Actually he does not remember much because it is pretty clear reading his old articles in the various magazines that he did not SEE much of what was going on.

Don, what is the driver of that Porsche doing, looking for his Coke bottle that fell on the aluminum floor? :)

#16 don.siegel

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:33 PM

He's praying to the Gods of Nurburgring that I'll find some glue for his rear end!

Rocky, I showed the car to Bob, and, if I remember right (he's not the only one who doesn't remember stuff!), it was indeed his car, but he wasn't the one who reworked the motor.

Anyway, the point is that, yes, you can get a Pittman in a 50s F1 car!

Don

#17 Duffy

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 04:39 PM

Don, what is the driver of that Porsche doing, looking for his Coke bottle that fell on the aluminum floor?


I just figured it was Gurney, sitting about the same way he fit in ALL the Porsches!

Anyway, the point is that, yes, you can get a Pittman in a 50s F1 car!


Oh, sure, and I've got a 704 here that would fit nicely after a LOT of cleaning-up. But we're probably leaning toward a 36D at this time; and, sadly, inline...got talked out of the sidewinder w/visible gearing.

Gotta search around for some Arco magnets now. More later.

Duffy



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#18 Prof. Fate

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 12:14 PM

Hi

I think your "704" is actually the Strombecker Copy. I think called "devastator".

Fate
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#19 Horsepower

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 02:10 PM

Put the Hemi 400 in it! :clapping: :bomb: :dance4:
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Posted 06 May 2010 - 02:12 PM

Hi

I think your "704" is actually the Strombecker Copy. I think called "devastator".

Fate

Rocky, did you see any difference between the Pittman and Strombecker 705/706 type motors? I remember the RPM rating being about the same. :) I can't remember if one or the other actually ran better.
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#21 Duffy

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 07:45 PM

After more homework--yup, Devastator. I've also got a formidable bid up on PayBay for the Kemtron version, so something oughta happen soon. And yes, having this pristine Hemi right here in front of me is a pow'ful motivator.

This is turning into two projects, now; having a variety of reely attractive motors AND two wildly different chasses, I don't want to choose between 'em. My biggest challenge right now is finding the time!--between work and parenting and husbanding (and making an appearance at the local track at least twice a month), my recreation hours are mighty dear. I admit that part of posting this is to catch a ride on all the enthusiasm from you lot, obligating ME to deliver!

And I have still to paint my SteamPunk King Cobra and get that out on the road. BusyBusyBusy.

Duffy
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#22 Prof. Fate

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 12:13 PM

Hi

The 706 looks different from the others. And it seems to me that the surface quality is better on the pittman 704s than the clones. I haven't run them directly against each other in years. I THINK the Stromie was slightly faster wind. But the best/hottest version was by RAM about 2 years after the others. My experience was that before there were commercial tracks everywhere, many of us, like EM and I were running on smaller club type tracks. The 704 layout was very effective then with the tires we could do, usually converted from model airplanes or hand cast silicone, and the usual 8 to 12 foot straights. We even had charts on which gears for the spacing to change the gear ratio. But except for running my survivors as is, I haven't really done anything with them since 1963.

The RAM came out later. I had a blown 704 in a car that I had rewound in the day that I have replaced with the RAM and it is faster than the others by a bunch.

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#23 dc-65x

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 01:02 PM

Here's a link to the RAM version:

Ram XL500...Going...Going...Man, it's GONE!

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#24 Duffy

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 03:16 PM

...HUH. So that's how it's done. I'll look around for one of those, Rick.
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#25 dc-65x

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 09:24 PM

Hi Duffy,

No worries, I don't know "the" way to do any of this stuff. I just muddle through and find "a" way to do things. The things I tried with that motor will work with any of the RAM, Pittman and Strombecker breed. The 3/32" tubes soldered on to the motor help reinforce the formally crimped connections and are the also for inserting pin tube frame rails for a space frame chassis. Just food for thought.......

Have fun!

Rick

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#26 Prof. Fate

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 12:26 PM

Hi

I should dyno them, I have the technology. I THINK the standard wind on the 706 is ca 17,000 rpm, and I would guess that the Ram XL 500 at the same voltage would be about 20. Not 150 by any streach.

My 500 is under a 57 Maserati 450S which seemed fitting. You know the one I mean, the one that was all horsepower and no brakes at Argentina?

Fate
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#27 Duffy

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 06:17 PM

An update, mostly to keep my own momentum up--trying desperately to get some real building time in between Real Life stuff.

But, scattering bits & pieces across my desk like runestones, I divine the Super Cucumber build will indeed be around the big Stombecker Hemi, inline; likely with a scratch pan frame. Tyres are drying on their wheels now, to be spun down after the dryer stops and skivvies're folded.

Jeez, this Vanwall is one dinkum-capacious shell! Hold it to your ear, you can hear Acton.

Duffy
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#28 Duffy

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 05:02 PM

It's my sentiment that proper Lost Cause models need proper ground clearance; persuant to that, the real bottleneck on this project is getting some large-enough wheels. After divers false starts I've managed to put together a functional tyre-grinder. Here it is on the happy occasion of its first successful test, on a nice German rubber donut.

Tyre Spinner 1.jpg


Chucking in the handpiece of my old Foredom flex-shaft set keeps the work far away from the motor's cooling rotor--works much better than Dad's hand drill, which blew rubber dust all over Mom's kitchen and incidentally ruined her Stew Of Ultimate Doom (False Start #4, as I recall). Sharp-eyed shooters (are there any other kind? If Stirling Moss liked guns, he'd have said there're three things no man will ever admit to being bad at!) will recognize the scrap aluminum base to be an extrusion for one of the Piccatinny Rail accessory racks. The clamp channel was handy to fix the handpiece to, at about the right height and place.

With the addition of an indicator boom, I could save my precision handpiece and use the chucker; it runs pretty good already, and tweaks to perfect in no time.

Tyre Spinner 2.jpg


It's all scrap bits up front, too; the brass carriage slides along the core-pin way with just the right resistance after one application of rubber dust gumming things up!

Tomorrow I'll destroy a layout scriber to make a sidewall cutter that fits in the same hole as the Dremel drum, with repeat Z measurements by means of spacers between core-pin head and carriage. Shoes for the Vanwall in a couple days, and then I got some ideas for the chassis...

Duffy


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#29 Duffy

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 05:01 PM

A little slow progress in a very busy couple weeks: started working up inserts for the wheels of this model. We had intended to cast knockoffs onto the inserts to keep flyaway bits to a minimum, and this was the first try at that. Worked out passably I think. I'll cast a few and then make multi moulds of each.. Unfortunately, I gotta wait for more RTV before I can really get going.

Duffy

Inserts 1.jpg

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#30 Pablo

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:48 PM

bump ??


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#31 Duffy

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:58 PM

Not a chance, Torch Boy. Not in my present Retro State Of Mind.


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#32 dc-65x

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:04 PM

The pull of the Dark Side is strong Pablo :laugh2:

Just kidding Duffy! I know you're doing what you enjoy and that's what matters :good:


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#33 endbelldrive

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

It's cool to read the late Prof Fate's wit and wisdom too.


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#34 Duffy

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:13 PM

Yah. Hearing Fate's voice again as I scrolled through these old threads was a real delight for me.


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#35 Duffy

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:50 PM



It's cool to read the late Prof Fate's wit and wisdom too.

 

By the way, the Jaildoor thread titled "Slithery Jungle Tails" is a direct shout-out to Fate. I've told the story somewhere, but I'll repeat.

 

One of Rocky's many hats was "writer" in real places. He was buds with a ton of sf writers - Roger Zelazny, Jerry Pournelle, Gordy Dickson blah blah blah. In the mid -'90s he & several of these guys were in a nonlist together, playing at sharing little story snips written in the styles of various Pulps authors - Haggard, Smith, Farmer or Lovecraft or - just for grins & giggles. At one point Rocky observed, "I'm having a ball with all these 'Slithery Jungle Tales' - "

- And Zelazny freeked. "Oh wow, 'Slithery Jungle Tales,' that's great, we gotta put these out under that title - " and he set out haranguing his publisher to do the collection, allegedly promising his next two titles for free if they'd go for this. Turns out, there wasn't time.

Anyway.

Rocky told me this story at some point, and later as I did the snaky snaky bendy stuff in a couple Jaildoor chassis, I suddenly flashed to the "Tails" idea and ran with it.

The great thing was, Rocky was seriously dyslexic, from childhood, back before we diagnosed & treated those things.. He'd trained himself in an elaborate work-around, though, that resulted in his seeing word forms & groups as raw data that then went right into processing - and he literally did not "hear" words on the page. Wordplay like puns was totally wasted on him.

So I put the "Slithery Jungle TAILS" up, and he never, never hipped to it.

& that was Fate.

 

duf


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Michael J. Heinrich
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And I am awaiting
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a renaissance of wonder

#36 stumbley

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

Still miss him. Always will.


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Democracies endure until the citizens care more for what the state can give them than for its ability to defend rich and poor alike; until they care more for their privileges than their responsibilities; until they learn they can vote largess from the public treasury and use the state as an instrument for plundering, first those who have wealth, then those who create it -- Jerry Pournelle.

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#37 Duffy

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

Yah.

 

I erased the rest. It's never enough. Just, Yah.


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#38 Duffy

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 07:55 PM

...and now, a friend is giving me a 704 - style motor to drop into a Vanwall. Jeez, with friends like these, huh?

 

Stay tuned. Or go get a cuppacoffee, you'll see when there's something.

duf


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#39 Duffy

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:19 PM

Hey Pablissimo, "Bump" back atchya!

Paul Jurczyszyn just PM'd me about starting a Vanwall, and here's hoping somebody gets 'round to doing one...I'm digging in my old boxes for those wheel inserts I showed above, for a set he can use. He should be chiming in soon.

 

Duf


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#40 SlotStox#53

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:05 PM

Does this mean there's a resurrection of the Duffy Vanwall build aswell ? :D  :pardon:



#41 Duffy

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:22 PM

...no.


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#42 SlotStox#53

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:26 PM

...no

short ,sweet & to the point... thanks :good:



#43 Paul Jurczyszyn

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:36 AM

Ya I'm in got the body and put under pillow for osmosis .lol
Ok dreams came to me about this massive body. Input from duff and some Mcd's napkins and came up with a game plan.....
Build to start tomorrow will keep posting but photos still not working right for form. I'll tell you this, it will have a parma motor in it, lol
Just call me Parma Paul.....
Know to get with the drag boys and grab some of the so called used rear tires....... If any one out there has some used H&R drag rears that you replaced I can use the old ones for this project.
Paul J
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#44 Duffy

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:36 PM

I think I got a line on some fronts for you, Paul. Gimme a day or so to figure it all out.


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#45 Paul Jurczyszyn

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:37 PM

Cool your contact emailed me and were set.
Now incerts?
Start bending wire tomorrow.
Humble student of the master slotters

#46 Paul Jurczyszyn

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:32 PM

Ok will post pic tomorrow will need help correcting them.
The chassie is my design hope it works but looks great so far....
Paul
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#47 TSR

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:09 PM

My only Vanwall model is this 1/43 scale Solido diecast from 1957, but it is signed by several of its former drivers, so I guess I will keep it...

And yes, both Dan Gurney AND Phil Hill drove one.

 

solido_vanwall.jpg

 

solido_vanwall_1.jpg

 

solido_vanwall_2.jpg

 

This little toy was one that Rocky really wanted out of my collection when he visited me.



#48 Pablo

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:27 PM

RIP Rocky :)


Paul Wolcott

#49 Paul Jurczyszyn

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:34 PM

Ok photos yes yell now can't correct no mater what I do they don't come out.image.jpg image.jpg
Almost completed few more days she will be on the track for testing.
Paul J

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#50 Pablo

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:40 PM

The first time you totally gave up and said they are wrong no matter what, now they are perfect.

Whatever you are doing, keep doing it. Up is down, down is up, yes is no, and no is yes. Whatever works, Paul :laugh2:

I really love the engineering on that fat lil chassis, I'm very impressed ! You are The Man now :good:


Paul Wolcott





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