Jump to content




Photo

Falcon 7 motors


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#1 HOracer

HOracer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Joined: 11-July 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:AZ

Posted 19 August 2010 - 12:50 AM

I recently started racing 1/24 after fifteen years. The track I am running at is running a wing car class, any chassis with Falcon 7 motors. I have bought ten motors and not one of them has been fast, even running the same gear ratio and tires as the fast guy.

I finally was able to run a 3.6 sec lap but a couple of the fast guys are running 3.4 and even a 3.1 sec lap. On a consistent basis the car will run a 3.7 sec lap but they are beating me down the straight by 15 to 20 feet and on the short chutes they get at least 5 or 6 feet; that is mostly motor. Some, I know is being rusty at driving but not that much. What can I do?
  • 0
Mark MacVittie




#2 Pablo

Pablo

    Builder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,757 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MS

Posted 19 August 2010 - 03:36 AM

Instead of buying lots of them to find "a fast one", try running one in longer. Some get faster as the brushes seat and wear. My guess is, your buddies may be beating you with motors that have many races on them.

Ensure:
- You are using a light viscosity, quality oil. Do not over-oil the brush end bushing.
- Your axle is as straight as possible by checking it with a dial indicator.
- You are using quality bushings or bearings and your axle is a perfect fit for them.
- Your bushings or bearings are perfectly aligned. With bushings, the axle should fall through under its own weight.
- Your gears are the same pitch and are quality items with perfect mesh.
- Your rear axle is perfectly perpendicular by aligning the chassis in a jig.
- Friction is eliminated/minimized everywhere. No tires rubbing on body, no gears rubbing on wheels, etc.

Also, try a different controller.
  • 0

Paul Wolcott


#3 Joe Mig

Joe Mig

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,399 posts
  • Joined: 25-February 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queens, NY, USA

Posted 19 August 2010 - 04:38 AM

Try one tooth bigger on the motor gear.
  • 0
Joseph Migliaccio. Karma it's a wonderful thing.

"Drive it like you're in it!!!"

"If everything feels under control... you are not going fast enough!"

Some people are like Slinkies... they're really good for nothing... but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

#4 Paul Kovich

Paul Kovich

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • Joined: 06-February 10

Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:21 AM

In wing racing, being slow is frequently attributed by novices to the motor, but as most hardcore wing racers will attest to its usually car setup, primarily too much downforce and or mechnical grip, the car is bogged.

You fix this by taking air off the car and going to harder and/or narrower tires. In a Falcon motor class this is almost certainly the problem. I would be willing to bet that my International 15 car is running less downforce than your Falcon car and with significantly more horsepower and less weight.

It's hard to really evaluate it without pictures and description of your car. If you could describe your car and the track you are running on, it would help. In particular what type of body, its dimensions (who did the body, is it a premount - some premounts come with a spoiler sticker which is massive overkill on a Gr F car), what type of tires, softness, width? What type of frame, floating mounts or solid?

Some Gr F classes run wire frames which can be quite bitey and on a modern fast King track can quickly lead to being bogged, then real effort is required to free it up with the body and tires.
  • 0

#5 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,605 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:37 AM

To generalize, when running low-power, sealed motors like an F7 or a TSR, a racer must minimize power loss at every opportunity so as not to squander the limited power available. If there's a trick or secret to racing using such motors, that's it.

You can demonstrate this to yourself, by asking one of the faster guys that you race against to install one of your best motors in his car and then have him run a few laps to see what time it will turn.
  • 0
Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap

"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give." - Winston Churchill

"I am hopeless romantic when it comes to automobiles. I like the noise of the race car. I like the aroma of racing fuel." - Bill Warner

#6 Marty Stanley

Marty Stanley

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,582 posts
  • Joined: 21-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Umatilla, FL

Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:55 AM

In wing racing, being slow is frequently attributed by novices to the motor, but as most hardcore wing racers will attest to its usually car setup, primarily too much downforce and or mechnical grip, the car is bogged.

Paul,

You hit the home run there!

Car setup is so important! Weight, weight bias, body mounting, and about 100 other factors can make up the .6 seconds that he is missing in his performance.

There have been many times that a relatively new racer can't run the same lap times as I can with my setup. Many times, it does come down to the racer themselves. If the car will run punched through a turn, then I will find that ability and use it. Sometimes the owner can't bring themselves to trust the car and try it.

Here's what I would suggest to come to the answer:

First of all, get one of the hot shoes to race your car. See what lap times they are running using your equipment. If that doesn't show you your car is competitive, then try bending down the wing on the back of the body until the car becomes unstable in some of the turns. All the air that is being moved is 'friction'. Friction is something that must be removed with low power motors like the Falcon 7.

As Pablo stated, 'break-in' is vital to form the brushes so you can get maximum speed out of the motor. There are some motors that are better then others, but most Falcon 7 motors are pretty close. I can see about 2 tenths difference between motors, not 6 tenths.

Just spend some time at the track, trying different things - more spacers under the guide flag, less spacers under the guide flag, less wing in the back, cut 1/4 inch off the side wings and see if that makes any difference. Remember though, only do one thing at a time or you will get very confused.

I hope this helps. Falcon 7 wing cars are a real blast to race.
  • 0
Marty Stanley aka Florida Slotter
"A Double '60s Slot Racer"
I raced then and am 60 now!
The Raceway - Team Racer

#7 marc

marc

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 353 posts
  • Joined: 09-April 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:What's left of FL

Posted 19 August 2010 - 09:04 AM

Marty,

You forgot the most important thing with Falcon motors: read the instructions...
  • 0
Marc Ronhock

#8 Marty Stanley

Marty Stanley

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,582 posts
  • Joined: 21-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Umatilla, FL

Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:02 AM

Marc,

I only thought that step was applicable when all else failed?
  • 0
Marty Stanley aka Florida Slotter
"A Double '60s Slot Racer"
I raced then and am 60 now!
The Raceway - Team Racer

#9 Paul Kovich

Paul Kovich

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • Joined: 06-February 10

Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:26 AM

Also go through the earlier posts in this section. There are multiple threads on bodies and how to tune them for wing car racing.

At this stage in the development of wing car racing there are no new problems, only new racers, so frequently your questions have been answered in an earlier post somewhere.
  • 0

#10 PCH Parts Express

PCH Parts Express

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,313 posts
  • Joined: 27-December 09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:53 AM

If you want to, give me a call and I can walk you though the changes to your car that will help.

Scott at PCH
(800) 258-7441
www.e-slotcar.com
Est. 1995
  • 0
Scott Salzberg
PCH Parts Express

#11 marc

marc

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 353 posts
  • Joined: 09-April 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:What's left of FL

Posted 19 August 2010 - 12:13 PM

Marty,

You're right! Lets keep it a secret. I don't know what I was thinking.
  • 0
Marc Ronhock

#12 Ron Hershman

Ron Hershman

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,051 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indyanna

Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:02 PM

I only thought that step was applicable when all else failed?

No, the very first step is to throw away all instructions. ;)
  • 0

#13 marc

marc

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 353 posts
  • Joined: 09-April 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:What's left of FL

Posted 19 August 2010 - 02:23 PM

Ron,

I agree!! Anything printed and labeled as instructions, warning labels, or arrows indicating a direction are only added to the packaging to throw you off and keep the real secrets from you. I always find it faster and easier to learn the hard way. Plus, where's the fun in easy?!?
  • 0
Marc Ronhock

#14 Guy Spaulding

Guy Spaulding

    Unintentional Instigator

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,653 posts
  • Joined: 06-November 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:High Point, NC

Posted 19 August 2010 - 03:14 PM

The final step is to buy another motor and read the instructions, since you threw them away the first time :wink2:
  • 0

173548759346958.1480.1688182746.png
Promote Your Page Too">Check us out on FaceBook


#15 Tex

Tex

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,081 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denton, TX

Posted 19 August 2010 - 04:24 PM

Let one of those faster guys drive your car and see what times THEY can do with it. They might also give some hints/tips on how to make it run better.
  • 0
Richard L. Hofer

Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! Only you're a block over and a block behind.

#16 The Bugman

The Bugman

    a dearly-missed departed member

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,989 posts
  • Joined: 22-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harbor City, CA

Posted 19 August 2010 - 06:46 PM

hiya mark,oscar here,,,,,just a note to all the great advice given to Mr McVittie,he maybe a re-newbie to 1/24 retro,,,,,Marek is one of the best HO builders & car tuners,and drivers in the country,
with a little help from you guys he will be running with the fastest guys anywhere AZ or Calif or??
he consistently whips up on in HO's,,,
and he's my enduro teammate too,,,,
WE KICKED BUTT at Jimmy's eh Mark,,,,,
seeya at Eddies in October

oscar
  • 0
Oscar Morales
8/16/49-9/18/13
Requiescat in Pace

#17 The Bugman

The Bugman

    a dearly-missed departed member

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,989 posts
  • Joined: 22-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harbor City, CA

Posted 19 August 2010 - 06:50 PM

AND,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, he's great friends with John Cukras too,it wont take him long,,,,
AZ beware,, McVittie,MRT is coming to get you,,,,,,,,,,
  • 0
Oscar Morales
8/16/49-9/18/13
Requiescat in Pace

#18 Phil Irvin

Phil Irvin

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,764 posts
  • Joined: 21-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wesley Chapel, FL

Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:13 PM

Ron,

I agree!! Anything printed and labeled as instructions, warning labels, or arrows indicating a direction are only added to the packaging to throw you off and keep the real secrets from you. I always find it faster and easier to learn the hard way. Plus, where's the fun in easy?!?

:laugh2: :laugh2:

As I was told by my 12 yr old G-daughter. Its a MAN thing...They don't NEED no instructions :blink: ..

I do a 15 min. break in at 5 V. Clean out with PURE spray. Oil and shoot it with VM&P Napthpa, gear 13/37, wing car only, and run it. I have an old ZAP, 73 grams, and an Alpha, at 82 grams..9 grams is worth about 2 ft. on the long straight of a KING but the Alpha makes up for it in the dougnut and I stay in better. The Alpha is about 5 laps better over 8 heats....SOOO The Alpha is on a diet and the ZAP...I'm playing with the body. ;) (HOOTERS :shok: HOOTERS :wub: & with a Scotch & water)

OLPHRT
PHIL I
  • 0

#19 flem1959

flem1959

    Race Leader

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 858 posts
  • Joined: 28-June 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:54 PM

So far I have bought 4 Falcon7 Motors and they are all fast.
I think this is an amazing motor for $11.95.
  • 0
Mike Fleming

#20 MantaRay

MantaRay

    Simply Addicted

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,765 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicagoland

Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:17 PM

I do a 15 min. break in at 5 V. Clean out with PURE spray. Oil and shoot it with VM&P Napthpa


That should take about 1/3rd of the brush life off.............But if it works for you.........
  • 0
Resident Curmudgeon
Ray Price

#21 slotcarone

slotcarone

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts
  • Joined: 23-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dutchess County, NY

Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:25 PM

So far I have bought 4 Falcon7 Motors and they are all fast.
I think this is an amazing motor for $11.95.

:D Fast is not the issue with FK style motors--maintaining the speed for a whole race consistently seems to be the most common problem.
  • 0

Mike Katz

Scratchbuilts forever!!


#22 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,899 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:08 PM

Mike, you run them on 100 volts? :)
I have a Falcon 7 in my D3 coupe since last year and it still runs great and fast.
If you run them at the voltage they are supposed to run (no more than 13V), they last a good long time. If you run them at 14.5, they won't last long, about the same as 2 pairs of tires. And they cost less than 2 pairs of tires.
  • 0
Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"

#23 Phil Irvin

Phil Irvin

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,764 posts
  • Joined: 21-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wesley Chapel, FL

Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:34 PM

That should take about 1/3rd of the brush life off.............But if it works for you.........

I run them as long as it takes to make the amp draw to stop dropping. 15 minutes is about 5-7 min. to long. Brush dust can get with the oil and make a goo that can fill in the small slots in a F7 arm. Been there-had it smoke in a race sooo... ;)

T did take one that did not run very well from day one apart. The tabs that hold the wire were so long that when bent to capture the wire. They were tuching the brushes causing them to bounce. I then turned the .156 diameter comm .005 and trimed the tabs at the same time. I also tried to center the arm in the magnetic field...Got a hell of a lot closer than stock BUT....I also found the comm well glued to the arm shaft so it can't be twisted. It runs much better but not as good as the best one I have...And yes. :shok: You can tell its been into so its a play motor...

How it runs with the..... FORKED UP BRUSHES & SLEEZY ARM :blink: The best things about them are the bushings. Very nice & tight...But I now understand why they don't last...CHEEP

OLPHRT
PHIL I.
  • 0

#24 JohnnySlotcar

JohnnySlotcar

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,402 posts
  • Joined: 26-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Barrington, IL

Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:45 PM

Try running the f-7 wing cars with a spec gearing of 10-37,38,or 39.A tenth or so slower, but very close racing and the motors last much longer! The JK Hawk 7 seems ideal for these cars, you can monitor the brush wear on these motors through the larger cooling holes.
  • 0
John Austin

#25 slotcarone

slotcarone

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts
  • Joined: 23-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dutchess County, NY

Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:13 PM

:D We run at HVR on 13.8 volts. The problem is not that they slow down but more of inconsistency. Many times the motor will be super fast at the end of the heat and after the lane change be very slow for the first ten laps or so then start to get fast again and continue to repeat this cycle over and over. I am not talking about worn-out motors either.
  • 0

Mike Katz

Scratchbuilts forever!!


#26 flem1959

flem1959

    Race Leader

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 858 posts
  • Joined: 28-June 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 October 2010 - 05:24 AM

Compared to the Parma Deathstar, the Falcon is faster and more consistent.
The cars handle much better with the little Falcon.
I will gladly buy a new $12 motor every other week compared to constantly trying to find a Deathstar that runs well.
I think the Deathstar is the worst motor I have ever run.
Unfortunately, that`s what the track owner insists we run right now.
I have tested a Puppy Dog but I haven`t raced with one yet.
I like the Falcon because they run right out of the bag.
  • 0
Mike Fleming

#27 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,899 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:51 AM

Many times the motor will be super fast at the end of the heat and after the lane change be very slow for the first ten laps or so then start to get fast again and continue to repeat this cycle over and over.

Mike,
Sounds to me that you have an excess of lubricant on the comm, that goes into the comm segments and fouls the brushes. Wash the motor with a spray of Pure over a container until all the black muck is out, then LIGHTLY lube the two bearings, and it should be fine.
  • 0
Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"

#28 Prof. Fate

Prof. Fate

    a dearly-missed departed member

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,580 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salt Lake City, UT

Posted 19 October 2010 - 11:54 AM

Hi,

Locally, the old Falcon 4 is usually as fast in a Flexi as the Deathstar, and the 7 just walks away from the Super 16Ds on the Kingleman.

I have not seen an actual Deathstar that could compare. While both the Falcon and the Deathstar are 30single winds, those neo magnets make a huge difference. This is a sort of "back to the future" where back in the early '70s we discovered cobalts alone were a huge advantage over the same motor with ceramics.

But the "reverse back to the future" is that in '66 when we started doing hot rewound 16Ds, we replaced the 16d brush carriers with those from the now obsolete 36Ds because of wear issues. NOW Deathstars have 36D brushes and well cared for will run for a very long time and the issue with the FK motors are those TINY nubbins of brushes.

Fate
  • 0
Rocky Russo
3/6/48-1/1/12
Requiescat in Pace

#29 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,899 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 19 October 2010 - 02:21 PM

... where back in the early '70s we discovered cobalts alone were a huge advantage over the same motor with ceramics.

Boy, Rocky, the world racers are lucky that the shop owners would not let you race, because if you had cobalt mags in the early 1970s, you would have been world champion for seven years in a row while cruising all the races... :)
  • 0
Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"

#30 slotcarone

slotcarone

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts
  • Joined: 23-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dutchess County, NY

Posted 19 October 2010 - 05:58 PM

:D Dokk are you suggesting we only oil the comm end maybe once before a race? I have tried flushing out the suspect motors but haven't been able to fix the problem. It is not just me but seems to happen to all our racers randomly.
  • 0

Mike Katz

Scratchbuilts forever!!






Electric Dreams Online Shop