54 replies to this topic

[Marty Stanley]

One of the useful tools I have in my arsenal is an R-Geo Products Wire Bender. The reason I say that about this particular tool is that I use it for bending lots of stuff into useful bits and pieces for my slot car projects. I am not a "Pliers Picasso" as some folks are, but my wire bender gives me the ability to put as many bends as I would like to into a bit of wire about as fast as anyone can.

So, as I build something, I will post the process here. Feel free to use it for your own projects or post something that you have made so we can all see what you're doing as well.

[Marty Stanley]

From time to time, I like to take a look at the chassis photos from the large retro races around the country.

I saw this chassis at the “Checkpoint Cup””

Then when looking at the chassis photos from the R4, I saw this chassis:

The chassis shown in the 1st photo was built by Bryan Warmack and the bottom chassis by TonyP – probably two of the best contemporary chassis builders for Can-Am style chassis around.

After looking at these designs, I decided to make an attempt at putting one of these together. You can only learn so much from a chassis my using senses other then sight, so it just made sense.

So the first step was to make a couple of main rails with ‘loops’ in them. I figured I would have to make 2 90 degree bends and 1 180 degree bend. That doesn't sound too hard when you look at it like that. Fortunately for me, I own one of the Heavy Duty versions of the Wire Bender made by R-Geo Products.

Out came the Wire Bender and I sat and took a look and decided what I wanted to do before starting the first bend. After a few minutes, I just grabbed a piece of .078 wire and got to bending.

Why .078 wire? Well it’s pretty tough stuff and you only need a single main rail to build a chassis that works well on most King tracks. Bending .078 wire is not for folks with weak hands, or that don’t own heavy duty wire benders. The reason I own one of the R-Geo wire benders is that it is kind of like a hammer. It works well and lasts a long time. It is not complicated, but it does what you ask it to do. On the Heavy Duty model, the bending posts are made out of 1/8 inch drill blank material. I have broken one of the posts one day while bending a piece of .078 wire. Like I said, it’s pretty tough stuff. I started to put a droplet of oil on the bending arm post each time I bend a piece of .078 wire and it has never broken since.

Now, let’s make some bends:

The first thing is to gather some tools:

Here I have the R-Geo Products HD Wire Bender, fence, calipers, Champion Tech Tool and 2 lengths of .078 wire.

Since I’m not sure where the rails will end up in the chassis, I’m going to leave about 2 inches from the back of the “U” bend to the end of the motor bracket. It just so happens that with the fence set on the end of the wire bender, it’s right at 2 inches from the center of the bend to the outside edge of the wire.

The 1/8 inch pin with all the scuff marks around it is where the bending arm goes and that is where we will make all of our bends.

After I make a standard 90 degree bend with the wire bender, I like to use my Champion Tech Tool as a square. It does a very good job in that role as well as checking so many other parameters on a slot car.

Once the 90 degree bend is verified, now it’s time to move one of the pins. I use the spacing for a 1 inch “U” bend. Put the 90 degree bend #1 so the wire is oriented as you see it in the photo above.

Now put the bending arm on so the pin touches the side of the wire that is resting on the bending pin on the outside of the wire and you will move it towards you until you put a 180 degree bend in the wire. If you don’t get it all the way to 180 degrees, don’t worry, just use a pair of pliers to finish the bend. I used the calipers to measure at the top and bottom of the ‘U” shape to make sure it was 180 degrees – or at least very close to that.

Now move the top of the “U” to the 1 inch pin and make a 90 degree bend towards you to finish up the main rail.

After you make one, the 2nd one is so much simpler and it comes out exactly the same size. That’s why if you using a wire bender to make complex bends is so nice. You can easily duplicate your work the same size every time.

So, once you have your rails bent up the way you want them, it’s time to move into the construction phase. Here’s what I built using the rails I made on my wire bender.

During the testing, it felt just a tad loose, so I changed tires and it helped, but not as much as I thought it would. I just noticed that one of my shims had fallen out, so that might have been the culprit in the 'feeling loose' mystery.

However, other then the looseness, the chassis felt very controllable. I could hang the rear end out and I knew about how far it would hang out depending on how much throttle was being used. Overall a very solid feel.

One of the things I did notice was an extreme quietness to the chassis. Either the gear mesh was outstanding, or there is a lot of isolation afforded by those large bends just in front of the motor.

Just as I was getting the chassis really feeling good, a family walked in with a whole flock of pre-teen young ones and they rented time, cars and controllers on the King. I declared my test session was complete as they were hooking up. The ensuing crash fest told me that was a wise decision.

More to follow, but I am certain this is going to be a good design.

So, what are you waiting for?

[Hipsticker]

Thanks Marty ..that is a very nice write up there....very helpful

[Jobiwan]

Very nice build Marty.

I too like to look at all the chassis that pop up out there and a fellow racer and long time freind directed me to this pic,
a car Bryan Warmack had raced and won with in April.



My freind told me that he had built one like this and it was really good and that I should build myself one to try.
So i wanted to build one but I didnt have a way to bend the wire so i made my own wire bender and I built this car.



I hope to get some track time with it this weekend.

[tonyp]

Joe, been there, done that. Mine runs pretty good, but no where as good as my standard stuff. They are an interesting exercise....

[Jobiwan]

I hear ya Tony, But you gota try right? Very tricky build for sure.

[tonyp]

You are right, thats why I built one. It runs good, but not that 'magic" car I am always looking for. Besides I never build the same thing twice, no fun in that. lol.

I am going to try it this weekend on a hillclimb. On ASR's king I could just about match my best times using a TSR geared with a 9. Maybe with an 8 and brakes it would get better.

[Jobiwan]

Well one "magic " car would be ludicrous. You need a whole box full of "magic'"cars!

[Marty Stanley]

Guys,

Hey, let me know the results of your testing.

I'm already running through my mind on how to make the bends for a new build.

Sometimes a little change will make the breaktrhough.

We can only try!

[tonyp]

Joe, my standards are high....When I get that one "Magic" car and ralph and James will have to kill themselves. lol.....

[Hworth08]

THis fits with a frame I saw on ebay this morming.

390313918583

No idea how it would work with Retro downforce.

[Marty Stanley]

Wire Holder

Have you ever had your lead wires get caught under the main chassis rails? I have and it’s not a whole lot of fun. So to keep that from happening we do all sorts of things to avoid the lead wires getting loose. Earring holder work, but my wife has put a lock on her jewelry box. Since I like to scratchbuild, I thought I would take some scratch and build a wire holder.

One of the tools I have in my arsenal is Rick’s Wire Bender.


Here’s a photo of my wire bender.

You can make this wire holder on any model of Rick’s Wire Bender.

I admit that I did make a modification to the wire bender for this project. I did cut a piece of axle off to use as a shortened pin. This way you don’t have to life the end of the wire so high while you are bending it. It’s about .250 in length – not very critical, so ‘about’ works very nicely.

You can use any diameter wire that you choose. I find that .025 wire works very nice for this application and it is very easy to work with.

Just to keep it simple, cut a piece of wire the width of the wire bender.

Now place the wire so that the ends are spaced close to evenly from the bending and holding pins on the wire bender.

Using the bending handle, make a bend just over 90 degrees in the wire. And then flip it over.

Now using the bending handle, make a bend of about 135 degrees in the wire then once again, flip the wire over.

Here’s the only ‘trick part’ in the whole process. With the wire that is bent just over 90 degrees on the bending pivot, make sure you swing the loose end of this wire so it is over the wire that has the 135 degree bend in it.

Now once again using the bending handle, make a complete circle in the end of the wire that is resting on the bending pivot. If you slide the bending handle up just a bit, you can slide it right over the wire that is resting on the surface of the wire bender. Once the loop is made in the wire, once again, flip the wire over.

You need to pay attention to this photo as I have the end of the wire that should be on top on the bottom. If your wire looks like this, you need to make sure to get the end that you are going to bend on top so it comes out nice and straight.

You are almost done now. Once again, using the bending handle, make another loop in the wire sliding the bending handle up so the wire rides over the holding pivot.

Now you should have something that looks like the piece in the photo below. Yes, the bends are made in opposite directions, that is why you have to do all the flipping. I’ve tried it with a screw holding the wire in place and only making one move, but this way gives you almost perfect loops. A couple of pieces of wire and you will see that its really pretty simple to do.

Yes, I could use a pair of pliers, but I find it takes me longer and nothing looks straight. More power to those that can use pliers to bend wire. I like my wire bender as I find out that once you figure out how to make something, its really easy to make it again.

After you have your two loops made, then use a pair of pliers to make the 90 degree bends, or whatever style of bend that you want to.

Then run your lead wires through the wire holder and never again worry about having those pesky lead wires give you trouble.

The completed wire holder weighs in at .1 grams.


Thanks for your time.

[W. J. Dougherty]

Tony,

Is most everyone using 78 to make these "suspensions"?? Is 63 not stiff enough??

Are most expecting this to float and twist allowing better weight transfer and application of power to the track??

When you build one of your "straight up" chassis, what wire size are you using for you high speed chassis (King type)?? What are you using on the enduro cars??

Thanks,

[tonyp]

Is most everyone using 78 to make these "suspensions"?? Is 63 not stiff enough??

Single rail of .063 would be way too soft...

Are most expecting this to float and twist allowing better weight transfer and application of power to the track??

Offers a bit of rear steer. The Idea was to try and get a chassis like Mike Swiss's but simplier

When you build one of your "straight up" chassis, what wire size are you using for you high speed chassis (King type)?? What are you using on the enduro cars??


King, usually .078, Ray Duran won at HVR this weekend with a double .063 rail car I built.


Enduro chassis with be .078 sleds.

[GearBear]

Single rail of .063 would be way too soft...

Is that due to the min weight restriction? A softer chassis gives more bite, correct? When I look at my 2009 Horky Eurosport chassis, it is very flexible. Far more so than even a chassis built with .047" rails. Granted it is made out of EDM cut Spring steel, so the feel is different but on the other hand, the principal should be the same, shouldn't it?

We want a certain amount of flex to act as both springs and shock absorbers to help keep the tires on the track without upsetting the car. The softer the springs, the better the tire will follow the track, but the car will be hooked up too much making it undrivable. By adding floppy pans and floating pin tubes, we are isolating the chassis movement from the body movement and in a sense creating some shock absorption at the same time.

Now, on a super speedway like a Gerding King, I can see why a stiffer chassis might work OK. But on a flat road course, it seems that the softer a chassis is, the better off you might be (to a point). Am I missing something here? I'm still trying to learn how to make chassis work better. So any information here would be a benefit.

BTW: Those look like awesome builds! So, Marty, show us how you are going to use the wire holder!

[MSwiss]

Are most expecting this to float and twist allowing better weight transfer and application of power to the track??

Offers a bit of rear steer. The Idea was to try and get a chassis like Mike Swiss's but simplier

Tony,
To tell the truth, I think Bryan was working on this simultaneously while I was coming up
with the Z rail. I think we were both trying to satisfy our needs as biteaholic's.

I would think my deal would be simpler to make, and more importantly,
still abide by the Tony P credo; "one rail, one bend".
Actually it would be better; "one rail, zero bends". LOL

[Mopar Rob]

Now, on a super speedway like a Gerding King, I can see why a stiffer chassis might work OK. But on a flat road course, it seems that the softer a chassis is, the better off you might be (to a point). Am I missing something here? I'm still trying to learn how to make chassis work better. So any information here would be a benefit.

The fist chassis I ever built were single .055" rails and that was for the retro race at Roger's first Masters Race in 2008 on Mid-America's flat track. Basically I had the same thought process as you have. Before the race Bryan Warmack came out with his kit with a single .078" rail. I bought one and built it per the instructions. It worked better on the flat track than my .055" rail car. Their weights were about the same. When I stiffened my chassis up with an additonal .047" rail it became closer to the Warmack kit car. Don't know why? For me it seems like everyting I liked with spring steel OG-12 type car seems like it's the oppisite with Brass and Wire inline cars?

[Rick]

Marty,

Very inventive. I always said that the end users would come up with many more uses and tricks with the benders. You should have loaded the twister rail dialog in this thread also. The Benders are only limited by your imagination. IIRC correctly you DID break a pin but found out because you were bending 3/32 and not .078. I bend 3/32 with mine using the 1/8 bending pin. Not recommended, and I have made it so .078 is the limit for fit.

If you lock the bender in a vise and use a seperate small c-clamp, you can get real creative in bending wire.

[Dominator]

Why don't retro chassis work well with smaller diameter wire? My opinion is that the motors don't have the power/torque to keep the chassis torqued enough to keep the tires from gripping too much. Eurosports and even C-can motors have a lot more torque so even though the chassis is providing bite by the torque of the motor, the motors are still able to "spin the tires loose" when driven hard. Then if you really want to go deeper into thought the gyro effect comes into play too.

[Don Weaver]

Mike,

Did I miss it.....what is a "Z-rail"?

Don Weaver

[tonyp]

Gary you have to remember we are talking inlines vs angle winders. The motors are in the wrong place on inlines and tend to transfer weight a lot more than an angle winder does in a corner. Therefore a stiffer chassis is required than on an angle winder as the inlines again because of the motor placement try to thrown them selves over in a corner.

When I started building again, I remembered what we did with adding weight to the back of the F1 inlines that were still required when the world had gone to angle winders. I applied this to my retro cars and had immediate results. The cars were immediately better with more weight in the back. Basically I tried to get closer to a flexible style car weight distribution.

Inlines also twist the chassis on acceleration and braking which lifts tire is the chassis is too flexible.

More flex is more bite until the car rolls over...

[MSwiss]

Mike,

Did I miss it.....what is a "Z-rail"?

Don Weaver

Bill Fulmer's pics of Z-Rail chassis from Sano 4

[Ron Hershman]

Why don't retro chassis work well with smaller diameter wire? My opinion is that the motors don't have the power/torque to keep the chassis torqued enough to keep the tires from gripping too much.

Ding ding ding.... we have a winner.

[Old pink can guy]

Very nice Marty. Great pictures. It would be nice for us if others would post pictures of how they use the bender. Thanks Ken.

[GearBear]

Tony,

Thanks for the excellent explanation. That makes sense to a point. But it still seems strange that when looking at the 1/32 Horky F1 Eurosport car, it is still far more flexible than a retro car is. Maybe the difference is that they also have smaller lighter motors?

I find all this type of stuff very interesting.