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The Duffy "Oxcart - Nagyka" progression


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#1 Duffy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 11:40 AM

Here's the latest in the Duffy Diaries--stuff I place up on the 'Blog not because it's in any way authoritative or With It or even Hip, but because I am this Inquisitive Guy who's trying to puzzle out the mystery of slot car physics; and I figure there may be a couple other guys presently on just the same developmental spot on that same road, that may like sharing in these stumbling learning moments. May come in handy, someday, for someone. And also I like to write.

Since I'm basically clueless in the wild wisdom of chassis dynamics, and incapable of just plunging in and going "I'll just build like HE does..." I am trying to come up with a roller that's as "Baseline" as I can get and as durable as I can drive--so I can try to watch and learn its behavior, and to then use as a jumping-off-point for developing and adding-on, hopefully learning how each change affects the Baseline, isolating the results for what I do. That's the plan.

Now, in all these threads, I'm tossing up everything in my learning curve for discussion. Where I can (where I remember the reason!), I'll tell my logic for a decision, and you lot can go at me with whatever you know or think or just say. I do this for me first, that I might maybe jog some relevant thought from your complacent veteran mind & thus learn something myself; and like I say, also for any poor soul as clueless as I, that he may learn too and maybe become A Real Racer one day.

So.

Duffy42 Oxcart1a.jpg

OXCART began as an attempt to further isolate chassis pan movement from what the plumber-actuated HOODOO chasses do. You see that moment of offshoot in the Duffy "HOODOO" thread--basically, I did a quick "beater" frame with bent-wire connections up front instead of the HooDoo-style plumber (mostly because I'm lazy, the typical Duffy-Fussy integral plumber hinge is a perfect bitskitty to blacksmith-up!)--and the immediate result was a slicker, snakier ride on my neighborhood King. As time and my budget permit, I will develop a couple more OXCART Can-Am rollers and see what this trend teaches me--

--But, more to the point right now, this thread opens with the first OXCART 4.5"Stocker.

Duffy47 OXCART GRAVY 01.jpg

I forget who came up with the "One Wire, One Bend" paradigm (was itTonyP?), but that's just like waving a red cape in front of this bullstuff factory. One thing I know about wire, it "springs" differently in its free, unattached state than it will when soldered to anything else: that solder joint is gonna make a change in the dynamic, it's gonna (prob'ly) [/size][size="2"]"soften" the springiness of whatever's coming before it or after.Since I was just setting a "baseline" build, the thing I'll compare all my mods to, I opted for the "Fewer Wires, More Bends (Less Filler, TastesGrit)" route here. I want to see what that springy steel does on the track, and then I'll start the series of change-ups.

.078" mains, .062" perimeter and axle uprights--with a .055" filler, so the uprights get a "valley" to drop in for more solder area. Duffy.062" bracket and tongue. I went to the Super-Duper Wire Bender to do the.078" stuff, but all the lesser stock was bent with my good ol' GFCparallel-jaw pliers and my Proto 8" needlenose. 

I wish I'd hipped to the following trick a long time ago, I'd have saved me a lot of scrap: make small marks on the plier with a Sharpie to show the spot along the nose taper where you want that next bend to go. The 45's you see here were tried, corrected, and then done by marking that spot and letting the bend-to-bend distance be set by the plier. If you need a pic of this, ask.

Duffy47 OXCART GRAVY 02.jpg

Cropper& Dunn look on as I ply my soldering skills.

The little bright hatchmark near the rear of the .040" x .31" brass infill shows the spot those pans are soldered up to, allowing some torsion in the perimeter wire aft of that point. This will be a major bit of experimenting with this chassis ( and two more like it, if I am true to my dreams--three to run, one to try out ideas on and two more to compare & swap in successful ideas)--what happens with more movement or less, based on where and how I fix the pans to the perimeter.

One guy I showed this to said, "Yah, I'd solder no further than one-third back and let that pan flop aft of that"--and I wil try that, when I overcome my fear of the pan coming off and flying across the Deadman in a terminal smash! "OhDearOhDear it's a slotcar it'll break..."

Duffy47 OXCART GRAVY 03.jpg

The original OXCART Can-Am proto had just the fussiest ball-and-socket rear fix you ever saw. It was elegant, it was crafty, it was never never to be repeated--it was just too much fiddly work! But it was fun. The simple wire-in-tube hinge here does everything the Rotator Cuff did, and took five minutes to make. See the fussy little kink bend that keeps the perimeter wire flat until the last moment.

Duffy47 OXCART GRAVY 04.jpg

Moving forward to the front axle uprights. I've canted the wires as far outboard as I can go here, and I'll copy that angle with the front uprights too.

Remember the "valley" I intended? It didn't work out so well with the.055" wire, did it? Lesson learned, I'l draw a blow-up of my diameters next time and plot it out proper!

Duffy47 OXCART GRAVY 05.jpg

Another Useless Building Tip (imagine Bullwinkle with a soldering iron, going "Greetings, Culture Lovers..."): how d'you hold on to that itty-bitty kink of a front upright? ans: leave it on a long bit of wire, and as an extra convenience take your Dremel and grind halfway thru on the bottom to get half your job done! (This helps to "seat" the Duffy-style complex bends in this joint, too, giving some clearance where the axle upright curls around in the "valley.")

Duffy47 OXCART GRAVY 06.jpg

So now you have something to hold onto as you solder the little wire in. Because the pre-cut I put into the wire also reduces the cross-sectional area of the wire at that cut, I got less heat transfer up the wire and could hold it with my wimpy musician's fingers even as I soaked the joint with heat.

Duffy47 OXCART GRAVY 07.jpg

--And here they are, all cut off. I'll assemble the BB front axle and tyres and solder it in at final set-up, Pablo-style.

Duffy47 OXCART GRAVY 08.jpg



So, the vanity shots, Duffy #47 OXCART (Gravy)*--63.4 grams dripping wet, easy to make the 120 gram minimum in the IRRA™ Stocker class, but I hear they tend to run ~130 grams around these parts. I'll know more in two days, after the HVR event. Stay tuned.

Duffy

*--well, it's a stock car, & sponsored by "Duffy's Roadkill BBQ" at that; the nickname only makes sense, right?

EDIT:Didn't make it to that race, I had a medical/parenting emergency! Initial reports must wait until I get out of Brooklyn the next time, --again, stay tuned!--Df.


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#2 Mark Wampler

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 11:50 AM

Nice work Duffy!
You can quote me.

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#3 Mopar Rob

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 11:56 AM

Font axle bearings and a custom Duffy rear motor bracket?
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#4 Duffy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:11 PM

Font axle bearings and a custom Duffy rear motor bracket?

Why? Why not? Problem? They don't mix, like tarragon vinegar and yogurt, or Roy Buchanan and Kenny G? Wait, I'm breaking out in hives here--

Yah, they're ALL custom Duffy brackets, ever since the night I wanted to build something and didn't have a bracket handy--went to the shop and tooled up so THAT'LL never happen again!!
I'm having a fun sidebar discussion right now with a couple guys, over the thickness of bracket stock: I've been making the things as thick as I can and then cutting 'em down to lower the center of mass, and it's got one guy howling--"just make it out of skinny stuff you can cut with tin snips and brace it!" and the other one says, "NoNoNo, adding braces just gives you more joints to fail in a crash!"
Ohh who knows, it's gonna fail sometime no matter what you plan for.

Duffy



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#5 Mark Wampler

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:28 PM

I'm the kind that uses .032 strips and brace the upper portion of the bracket with .055. I also like to double sleeve the bearing holders for added durability.
I can see that starting heavy and lighten as you go has good merit. Same result from different approach. ITs all good.
You can quote me.

-Mark

#6 Jairus

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 01:02 PM

Very nice Duff! :wub:

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#7 Marty Stanley

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 01:03 PM

Duffy,

In a word . . . . . NICE!
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#8 Duffy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 02:31 PM

I also like to double sleeve the bearing holders for added durability.

.............Ah. A penny drops.

I like this hobby.



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#9 Preston M

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 08:33 PM

Duff

Lets plan a day to go to SAL and test your cars?? Lemme know
Preston Meyer
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#10 Duffy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 08:37 PM

Lets plan a day to go to SAL and test your cars?? Lemme know

Yah. Thought about tomorrow, but I'm keeping close to my daughter this weekend--Thursday evening maybe, or next weekend. I already have enough mods lined up for this chassis that I better invest in some more building (and some more [expensive multiples of] running gear!)

Duffy



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#11 Mopar Rob

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 08:57 PM

Font axle bearings and a custom Duffy rear motor bracket?



Why? Why not? Problem? They don't mix, like tarragon vinegar and yogurt, or Roy Buchanan and Kenny G? Wait, I'm breaking out in hives here--

Yah, they're ALL custom Duffy brackets, ever since the night I wanted to build something and didn't have a bracket handy--went to the shop and tooled up so THAT'LL never happen again!!
I'm having a fun sidebar discussion right now with a couple guys, over the thickness of bracket stock: I've been making the things as thick as I can and then cutting 'em down to lower the center of mass, and it's got one guy howling--"just make it out of skinny stuff you can cut with tin snips and brace it!" and the other one says, "NoNoNo, adding braces just gives you more joints to fail in a crash!"
Ohh who knows, it's gonna fail sometime no matter what you plan for.

Duffy




They were just simple questions. I assumed you would be putting bearings in the front, not oilites or doing something outside the box? Not knowing if this was a current Duffy build or something 15 year old Duffy was building I thought I would ask the question. I didn't recognize the bracket so I asked?


I guess if it makes you happier than:

You can have both, but then you can only race the chassis on Saturday's when there's a full moon. :shok: Now if the chassis was assembled while listening to NPR or Strength in Numbers "One Winter's Night" than you can race it at any time. :wub:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRcVo93boSQ
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Rob was right!


#12 Duffy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 09:32 PM

--Huh. To this expat Californian, Austin never looks as good as when guys like this're hangin' out on the edge. Thank you, Rob.


I meant my response entirely in fun, and I'm sorry to have needed a clarification (but glad it included this clip!)--

--and 15-year-old Duffy was busy tonight, playing Backgammon with current-Duffy's daughter, now stretched out on the couch recovering from kidneystone-removal procedure this morning. But, when it comes to Retro, we're pretty much team builders. Unfortunately, neither one of us have driven enough to add up to at least one good racer.

More tomorrow, maybe: Recovering Olivia's calling me in to watch Firefly re-runs, "the one where Mal gets naked." Nice to be a Dad again, for a while.

Duffy
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#13 Pablo

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 09:33 PM

I was going to ask about the jig wheels sitting in holes,
until you said you were going to use the Pablo method of soldering home the front axle assembly last.
Now I realize, they only need approximate the final height, so it matters not.

I like it, I'm happy :)
Paul Wolcott

#14 Duffy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 09:38 PM

And now you know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall. G'night, guys: Heinrich The Security Specialist's about to go missing, can't miss that.
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#15 JerseyJohn

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 10:38 PM

Great job Duff..and remember ...Puff, Puff.....................PassPosted Image
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#16 68Caddy

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:23 AM

Duffy that is one of my favorite songs from the Beatles. ;) Click here :rolleyes:



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#17 Duffy

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:47 PM

I've been playing around with the Can-Am OXCART for a few sessions, and am getting close to the conviction that I am On The Right Track. For me. For the tracks I've tried it on.

If you're just tuning in, I've been working back in my thinking & building to the basic-est chassis I can make; to give me a jumping-off point to complex-er and presumably fast-er rollers, once I understand the basics and can make informed decisions on what's next &c. &c. --Well, something's happened: I'm down to the basic, and I realize I have a lot to learn just from this configuration! This may be a long internship indeed.

Here's how it's gone down.

Duffy 48 OXCART 01.jpg

As we've already seen elsewhere, I've been going a little wacko with wire bending. It started with "Hmm, can I do this--" and developed into the superfluity you see here. That's .078" main rail and .063" pan perimeter. In my own defense, I claim that the baseline of torsion must use the wire un-damped by solder flexure, so "one wire one bend" got sorta ignored here; I can plug that little convenience back in at a later date.

If anybody wants to see a sequence of Duffy's Overly-Fussy Bending, ask. Until I actually get a request, I'll just assume you're all, like, you know--sane.

Duffy 48 OXCART 02.jpg

The brass is also all mine. I got this thing about .062" stock: I like the stiffness I start with, and I got no problem cutting it back to lower and lighter as I wish, and it still feels confident.

Duffy 48 OXCART 03.jpg

I'd like to hear others' opinions of mass in front of the wheels. Is it there for protection, or dynamics? These horns do both or whatever, and adjusted more easily to front clearance than a brass pan would. You'll see later how they got cut down.

The pan perimeter wire attaches along the 90-degree bend to the rails, then that wire frees up and starts its "torsion" job right there in the wheel well.

Duffy 48 OXCART 04.jpg

When I was laying out this series, I was playing with axle mounts on the plumber pans of F1 chassis in E-company with Marty Stanley; it was working well, but Marty got indeterminate results when he tried a similar arrangement on a fullbodied car. So I went partway on these. There may be no useful movement given by this arrangement. But it stacked up nicely anyway, so there it is. (It also afforded me another chance to bend up some topological nightmare in wire for the uprights! Keeps me outa bars, y'know.)

I'll show more after dinner.
Duffy
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#18 Duffy

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:17 PM

Dinner's delayed.

Duffy 48 OXCART 06.jpg

The pans are .063" sheet filed to .220" wide. They're soldered to the perimeter wire along their first third length only, allowing some flex behind that, and the downstop for the pans is provided by the pintubes back there. The perimter wire runs in 3/32" sq. tubing at the bracket cheeks.

Retro Bushing Reducers.jpg

I originally intended to set BBs right into the bracket but got timid. Ended up making some duffies for myself, while I was busy in the lathe for a buddy. Another guy tells me he has installed BBs in duffies in a bracket using red LocTite throughout; he knows his stuff, but I'm still kinda surprised--I know I worked to tight tolerances and there's little slop anywhere in the dry setup, but it still makes me nervous.

Duffy 48 OXCART 10.jpg

Vanity shots. The Noose-painted Ti22 edges my scale up to 100.4gr soaking wet.

Duffy 48 OXCART 11coverup.jpg

I forgot the front horns: the inner bend was wrong and limited guide movement, so I clipped 'em. I'll write up some justification involving improved mass moment and quantum frammistan modulation, after dinner.

I'm interested in how suddenly I've gone to lighter cars. A year ago I was running a floppy JK roller at 137gr and having trouble keeping it in the slot, and now this car works for me and asks for more and it is not just my driving that's better: I'm pretty sure that my success with a less-motile setup means I'm just not knowledgeable enough to see how to control all the motility, so I've defaulted myself right into a reliable ride. That's my thought, anyway. Two directions to go from here: slap some lead on the car in various places and test, and start incorporating some motion in and test.

See what happens next.
Duffy
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#19 Noose

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:22 AM

Very cool Duffmeister.

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#20 Dallas Racer

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:21 AM

That's some nice wire bending Duff.

PS: Uncut body pins make you look like a rookie. ;)

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#21 Duffy

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:31 PM

PS: Uncut body pins make you look like a rookie. ;)


Okay, guys, who was slated to tell Phil and then didn't?
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#22 Duffy

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:39 PM

response #2: what uncut body pins?
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#23 tonyp

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:17 PM

Duff, I never cut the pins either. Leave them long for the chance they might stick a marshall in the finger.

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#24 Cap Henry

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:32 PM

I dont cut mine either, that way I dont need different pins to mount the body.

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#25 Dallas Racer

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:00 AM

Okay, guys, who was slated to tell Phil and then didn't?


Either I'm too dense to understand that Duff or you're being weird again. ;) What do you mean?

response #2: what uncut body pins?


Well at least you did a good job Photoshopping the upper left pin. The others, not so much. ;)


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