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Harvey Aluminum Special


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#1 dc-65x

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 09:37 PM

I started my Harvey project with an earlier post that shows bodies of the Lancer and Dynamic versions and period magazine articles of the real racer:

A Tale Of Two Harvey’s

Then I acquired this Lancer factory painted version. I sent it off to that Viceroy of Vacuum, John Dilworth. He made a mold from it and produces some wonderful repop bodies. Here's the original:

Posted Image

I decided to finish off the Lancer Yellow Boy and bring its journey full circle.... but what motor to use and keep it in the 1965 timeline?

Then BAM! What about this, a Pittman DC-65X:

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It fit...INLINE! :shok: I was inspired by the old #1603 Kemtron inline frame for the X503 padlock motor. Then I thought about these rear axle brackets from the Dawn of Time:

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The bracket was designed to solder onto an inline motor.

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I just needed to drill a couple of holes in the axle bracket. Howard's Hobby House bearing retainers are doubled up and fit to the bracket:

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To drill and tap holes in the motor end pieces I wanted to take the motor apart.....but I didn't want the zillion little stamped "pole pieces" falling apart :unsure: . Here's my somewhat goofy solution :blink: :

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"Wicking grade" thread locker was brushed onto the outside of the motor being careful to keep it away from the endplate screws.

After that cured overnight I CAREFULLY dissembled the motor, clamped it up and painted another coat of thread locker all over it:

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Here's the result:

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It's not super strong but strong enough to hold together in one lump while I worked on the arm and endplates ;) .

To be continued.......... :)


Rick Thigpen
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#2 Pablo

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 10:26 PM

DC-65X motor :D

I love it !! ;)
Paul Wolcott

#3 dc-65x

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:07 PM

I think it's a cool idea too Pablo :) .

I used Mr. Mill to get the mounting holes in the "Korrect" place on the motor end plates:

Posted Image

I added some ball bearings to the motor endplates, epoxied and static balance the armature while the motor was apart:

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For a front motor mount I made a Russkit 22 style bracket out of 1/8" thick brass. The part sketch doesn't have to be neat...just accurate :laugh2: :

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Mr. Mill gets this job too:

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Here both brackets are trial fit to the motor:

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Time to start soldering :) .

Rick Thigpen
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#4 4wheeldrift

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:16 PM

I always liked that particular Pittman. Neat how the mass of the motor magnet will be nicely offset to the left for those counter-clockwise laps of Indy. Keep up the excellent work. Your stuff is always sweet!
David H. Brady, Jr.
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#5 Pablo

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:20 PM

Sweet indeed :D

Rick, please refresh my memory on where one can obtain those bushing reducers ? I seem to recall somebody had some for sale ?
Paul Wolcott

#6 Duffy

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 07:43 PM

Rick, please refresh my memory on where one can obtain those bushing reducers ? I seem to recall somebody had some for sale ?


Watchya got in mind?...
Duffy



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#7 Joe Mig

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 07:55 PM

Wow that will be special when it is done. Here is a picture of mine.
100_6529.JPG
Joseph Migliaccio. Karma it's a wonderful thing.

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#8 dc-65x

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 08:50 PM

...........Neat how the mass of the motor magnet will be nicely offset to the left for those counter-clockwise laps of Indy........


Thanks David. I hoped to align the motors armature shaft right down the centerline of the body. That would offset the mass of the magnet to the left as you suggest. Perfect for an Indy Car turning left. But, "shes-a-no-work". The width of the motor has to be centered in the body for it to fit. More to come on that ;) .

.......please refresh my memory on where one can obtain those bushing reducers ? I seem to recall somebody had some for sale ?


Hi Pablo. I don't know who might sell them. EJ's used to have some Garvic aluminum jobs but they're not in his current catalog :unsure: .

Watchya got in mind?...
Duffy

Hi Mikey, Duffies are truly amazing and really handy! They can just make things from blocks of metal. An amazing talent ;) :D .

........Here is a picture of mine.


Hey Joe, what do you have that neat Harvey stuffed with....a 36D :shok: :D . It looks like one big motor ;) .

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#9 Duffy

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 09:01 PM

Hi Mikey, Duffies are truly amazing and really handy! They can just make things from blocks of metal. An amazing talent




Yah, riiiiight, we're like the Underwear Elves of Slots.
So, gimme some dimensions before Pablo busts a vein!
Duffy





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#10 dc-65x

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 10:14 PM

Hi Duffy,

Here ya go:

Posted Image

If you make these may I have some too please :)

Captain Rick

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#11 Duffy

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:43 PM

I hoped to align the motors armature shaft right down the centerline of the body. That would offset the mass of the magnet to the left as you suggest. Perfect for an Indy Car turning left. But, "shes-a-no-work". The width of the motor has to be centered in the body for it to fit. More to come on that/


I was thinking, if you offset the shaft so the crown gears on the car's centerline and the motor shaft is offset...you'd need to revamp your bracket & front faceplate, but it's doable.
OR have someone Duffy-up some Siamese Twin stack plates, and put another magnet on the other side! An "Evelyn/Evelyn" 65!!

Hi Mikey, Duffies are truly amazing and really handy! They can just make things from blocks of metal. An amazing talent


...As I was turning these up today, I suddenly tho't "Doesn't Rikky have a lathe too?" So, I wonder...

Sleeves 1.jpg

So, for those who want 'em, how many sets?
I bored the inner register flat-bottom, making ~.050" wall all over; seemed like a good idea, and it's deep enough that you might be able to trim about an eighth of an inch off the width of the car with a file if you need.
That said, this is custom work, depending on your running gear and your bracket. I'm actually thinking of making some for my Retro builds too, but each application has its own set of dimensions.

Duffy
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#12 Noose

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:54 PM

I wonder if Marty Stanley ever put the workings under this one?
5-17-10-Harvey-2.jpg

Nice project Rick!

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#13 havlicek

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 04:13 PM

VERY cool project Rick...and that seems like a lot of motor to fit under the Harvey (one of my alltime favorites!). Oh yeah, Noose...that is a drop-dead-gorgeous-Sophia-Lorenesque Harvey if ever I saw one :wub: !

-john
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#14 Marty Stanley

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 04:56 PM

I wonder if Marty Stanley ever put the workings under this one?

Posted Image

Nice project Rick!



Noose,

I have been sidetracked with some health issues happening.

But when I saw Rick's thread, I moved the project up to the next one to complete.

Thanks for asking.

It is really a nice paint job. Trust me it is nicely protected, waiting for me to complete the already started chassis.
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#15 dc-65x

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 07:35 PM

...As I was turning these up today, I suddenly tho't "Doesn't Rikky have a lathe too?" So, I wonder...



Hi Mikey,

Your bearing gizmos look great. Yes I have a hobby lathe and I could make a couple of those gizmos for myself. But making them in a real machine shop with a tool room lathe with a nice big spindle to feed the stock thru, digital readouts, collet stops and a plethora of tooling would be much faster. That's what I would do if my work hadn't gone on the cheap and gotten rid of our Wed. night "hobby shop". Oh well....

...and that seems like a lot of motor to fit under the Harvey (one of my all-time favorites!).


It is John but it JUST fits if the bulk of the motor is centered under the engine cover of the body. The body can sit nice and low too. A Harvey just gots ta be LOW :D . The Harvey is one of my all time favorites too ;) .

Here's why:

Posted Image

Look at how LOW it is even compared to the little Lotus. And those wheels and tires! Talk about "low profile" :shok: .

Noose and Marty, man that's one beautiful Harvey :wub: .

Anywho, here's my motor bracket all soldered up with a simple U-brace:

Posted Image

Here's how I soldered up my main rail tubes to the front motor bracket. There is only about .0005" clearance between the tubes and the hole so they would be self aligning. But with lots of acid flux and heat, applying the solder to just the back side of the bracket........

Posted Image

.....the solder still flowed all over the tube to the front of the bracket. I made the bracket 1/8" thick so there would be plenty of metal for the tubes to attach to:

Posted Image

Here's the motor centered in my Rick's Jig before the tubes are soldered to the front axle tube:

Posted Image

Now all we have to say is, "Revell Asymmetrical Chassis" three times really fast and:

Posted Image

I'll let this asymmetrical wonderment sink in for a while :) .


Rick Thigpen
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#16 Joe Mig

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:08 PM



Hey Joe, what do you have that neat Harvey stuffed with....a 36D :shok: :D . It looks like one big motor ;) .


Take a looksee for your self. 100_6528.JPG
Joseph Migliaccio. Karma it's a wonderful thing.

"Drive it like you're in it!!!"

"If everything feels under control... you are not going fast enough!"

Some people are like Slinkies... they're really good for nothing... but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

#17 dc-65x

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:35 PM

Yup, the "big dog", a 36D...nice :) . I like the Testors front and rear wheels too ;) . Thanks for the pic Joe....cool car!

Rick Thigpen
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#18 Pablo

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:43 PM

I would like 3 sets of duffies. :D
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#19 don.siegel

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 04:26 AM

Another fascinating project Rick, thanks for sharing. Of course an Indy car should be asymmetrical, but in fact was the Harvey offset like the roadsters? I don't seem to remember it being so...

Also, that's a great comparison shot of the Harvey with the Lotus-Ford and a Roadster! No wonder all the GP races in the Midwest were dominated by Harvey bodies (and the Lancia-Ferrari too, but lowering that one was cheating a bit...).

Don

#20 Steve Deiters

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 07:50 AM

Interestng build. I don't think I ever saw a 65A installed in an inline format before. With those Harvey Aluminium bodies they are so roomy you could alsomt build an ice skating rink! Thanks for posting it.

#21 dc-65x

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 01:50 PM

Of course an Indy car should be asymmetrical, but in fact was the Harvey offset like the roadsters? I don't seem to remember it being so...


Hi Don. The body will be centered between the tires like the real car. The chassis is asymmetrical so I can center the motor within the body....if that makes sense :blink: :D .

....that's a great comparison shot of the Harvey with the Lotus-Ford and a Roadster!


Here are some other shots of just how low the Harvey was:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Interestng build. I don't think I ever saw a 65A installed in an inline format before.

I’m not sure I have either Steve. I think I may have seen one in a 4WD 1/32 scale setup. I know that building one of those is on my “to do list”.

I have seen inline rail dragster frames for padlock motors by K&B. I’ve also got a Kemtron chassis kit to mount their X503 inline.

Here’s progress on the project:

Posted Image

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The drop arm components....

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......and installed (no down stop):

Posted Image

The body mounts:

Posted Image

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Assembly time :)

Rick Thigpen
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#22 endbelldrive

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 04:42 PM

Interestng build. I don't think I ever saw a 65A installed in an inline format before. With those Harvey Aluminium bodies they are so roomy you could alsomt build an ice skating rink! Thanks for posting it.

A couple of us were going through our old mags looking for pics of the earliest drop arm frames and ran into a few inline padlock configurations. (...a few minutes later...) Here ya go, it's from Steve Okeefe's Independent Scratchbuilder website: Drop Arm - First seen: 196? General use: 1964 Obsolete: ~ 1970 Gone: 1973

"Here's a scan (click to enlarge) from the first edition of Model Car & Track, published in the winter of 1963, showing two drag cars, both with drop arms."

Ahoy, full speed ahead Cap'n Rick! :clapping:
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#23 don.siegel

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 04:52 PM

I talked with Steve about this, and the first mention of the drop arm - giving its inventors! - was in a Car Craft from about 61. It was already old hat by 1963. Slot or rail drags started early, and I'm sure the drop arm came very early in the drag game...

I've got a bunch of inline chassis with laminated field motors (padlocks if you will), but not sure there are any DC65s in there - the advantage of the DC65 was that it could be used as a sidewinder, even in 1/32!

Very interested to see how this one runs Rick...

Don

PS: Car Craft February 1962, A swinging-arm pickup system for your model road racing machine, by Bob Rolofson, who says he invented it, along with Bill Sippel, Bert Wagner and Voytek Dolinski... But I think the earlier reports of the first R&C drag meet already shows swing pickups. I'm pretty sure I posted a scan of this article somewhere - search for "Voytek"...

#24 Duffy

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 07:29 PM

I'd post this in "Parts Counter" if I was actually making money at any of it--but:

Pablo & Rikky, your reducers will go out Monday; and I received the Dynamic weight to clone, does it really need the setscrew for what we're doing or are you gonna insist on Peryod-Korrektness?

Duffy
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#25 Pablo

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 07:36 PM

I need the setscrew because I often use them as "flag nuts"....they work really nice because of the large flat surface.
A normal size axle setscrew instead of the big ones used originally would be fine.
Paul Wolcott

#26 Duffy

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 07:39 PM

Done, dammmit.


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#27 tonyp

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 10:02 PM

There you go Pablo screwing someone else..

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#28 Duffy

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 10:15 PM

Yahh okay but "just a little screw"--really, how Guy is that?...
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#29 Marty Stanley

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 10:15 PM

Actually I think Pablo is simply screwing around. :laugh2: \


Rick,

This is looking very good - but that is not a surprise. I love looking at your builds as I just use them as way to measure how my builds are coming along.

BTW, where do you buy that 'disappearing solder' that you are obviously using?
Marty Stanley
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#30 dc-65x

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 02:42 PM

Bob and Don, thanks for the links and info on early padlock inlines. I love the Fiat Altered car. I bought the reissue of the AMT Double Dragster model kit for the Fiat Altered. There is another old magazine article that shows one racing on an oval. Got to build one up with a Pittman DC-84-6V....inline!

Thanks for the goodies Sir Duffster :) .

Hi Marty, that acid flux and high heat makes the solder do what I call "flash plate" the brass almost everywhere there is flux. It's REALLY a thin coating so I just sand the crap-O-la off leaving actual joint alone. I like all the shiny metal....especially brass :D .

I struggled with wheels and tires for a Harvey. From reading all those old magazine articles in my "Tail Of Two Harvey's" thread I believe the "Korrect" rear tire diameter is 24" and wheel diameter is 12" (about 13 3/4" overall diameter).

In 1/24 scale that would be a 1" diameter tire on a .574" wheel. What I ended up with was a little smaller diameter tire (15/16" vs. 1") and a little bigger diameter wheel (.625" vs. .574"). I used a Russkit standard rear wheel and a Paul's of Canada urethane reproduction Cox Goodyear tire. Stock on the left and ground to 15/16" on the right:

Posted Image

Posted Image

The same scenario for the fronts. The same Russkit standard rear wheels with Monogram 1/32 scale GP car rear tires ground to 7/8". I also made one wheel free wheeling and soldered a wheel retainer on the axle. The free wheeling wheel in counter bored for the retainer so wheel inserts will fit flush:

Posted Image

Now I've got to get some old school gears that mesh :blink: . My MDC pot metal crown gear just ate my Tradeship brass pinion :laugh2:


Rick Thigpen
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There's much more to come...


#31 don.siegel

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 03:54 PM

Bevels, Rick, Bevels.

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#32 Duffy

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 04:08 PM

I got two sets of 10/40 bevels here--you want I should toss one into the Bag O Reducers?
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#33 dc-65x

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 05:08 PM

Bevels indeed. They would work for sure. Thanks Duffy for the offer. I have a good supply of 10-40 bevels so I'm OK with those. I have very few of the 10-35 and 10-30 and with the small diameter rear tires I going to try some taller gearing than 10-40.

The deceased Tradeship brass pinion was a 9T mated to an MDC 30T. Then I tried this Wilson steel 10T pinion (I don't have a 9T) with the same crown:

Posted Image

They mesh near perfectly even set up with very little back lash. I can also try an MDC 32T if I need to:

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Here's the roller ready to go with a Cox screw type guide and Marklin train lead wire:

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The clear test fit body centered between the motor and wheels:

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I'll go and "dig out" my home track and make some laps.........

Rick Thigpen
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#34 slotbaker

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 08:06 PM

Straight out of the 60's.
Beautiful.
:wub:

Steve King


#35 Duffy

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 08:33 PM

Yah okay--but--I keep wanting the bracket to offset itself back to symmetrical. I swear, I've thumbed-up my screen here trying to smudge that bracket over in the picture...
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#36 dc-65x

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:00 PM

Thank you Steve. That's exactly what I'm trying to do...recreate some 1960's fun :) .

Yah okay--but--I keep wanting the bracket to offset itself back to symmetrical......


I know Duffy you are a very technical guy...that's what you do as a Master Tool and Die Maker. But think about it from the vintage little toy car perspective. With the minimal power and traction from 1965 technology does the car really care if the axle bearing is closer to the wheel on one side than it is on the other? After driving the car on my home track a few minutes ago I can say it doesn't. The car runs and handles just 1965 era fine.

I'm glad I went ahead and built it this way after I discovered the motor wouldn't fit the body with its armature shaft on the centerline as I had planned. If I hadn't said, "screw theory" and just built it I wouldn't have this fun car now.

I could have made a rear axle bracket but I wanted to use that "dawn of time" Auto Hobbies piece...

Something else about driving the car just now. It was a little light on brakes and I realized I had forgotten to rezap the motor. After a good Zap of the "Big Dog Zapper" the gauss reading went up from the low 400's to the high 600's.

I expected to have an increase in braking but it remained about the same. What did happen is the motor came alive and when you punch the car it picks up and carries the front wheels down the straights :shok: . There is no pickup brush arcing so I think it's happy this way :laugh2: .

I can't wait to try it out on Eddie's Blue King :) .

Onward.....

Rick Thigpen
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#37 Pablo

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:39 PM

:D

What will the paint be like ? :)
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#38 dc-65x

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:58 PM

Hi Pablo,

So far I'm going to using this Lancer factory painted body.......but with a twist ;) :

Posted Image

On a side note Pablo, I'm kind of worried. My boy sent me this email today:

Dont know if you heard about the 7.2 earthquake outside the Aluetuan Islands but were all fine. Had some crazy seas though, the bow of our ship played submarine a few times - took a sweet video from the bridge that I'll try to send to you next week.
YIKES! :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

Worried Dad Pablo...........


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#39 Pablo

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 10:18 PM

At sea in >1000 fathoms is the best place to be during an earthquake ;)
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#40 dc-65x

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 10:22 PM

Thank you Pablo :unsure: still worried but I know you're right.

Rick Thigpen
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#41 dc-65x

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 04:02 PM

The inline Pittman 65-6V stuffed into the Harvey worked great on both Eddie's flat road course and his Blue King. With all the motors weight down low and small diameter tires there was no tilting at all. It handled so well it even worked without tilting using modern Alpha rubber:

Posted Image

Since I want the car to represent the 1965 time period I decided to stick with 40mm "Germans". The car is slower that with the later period foam tires but it's a hoot to drift around the track:

Posted Image

The pipes are from a Monogram 427 Cobra model kit:

Posted Image

The "Little Man" is a Lancer GP interior kit"

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The roll bar is 1/16" aluminum rod:

Posted Image

These aren't the wheel inserts I'd planned on using. I broke one of my only set of 4 Monogram Midget model kit wheels I was going to use :angry: . Oh well....

Posted Image

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Onward :)

Rick Thigpen
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#42 slotbaker

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 05:05 PM

:wub:

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#43 TSR

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 06:06 PM

Double :wub: :wub:
:)

#44 Noose

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 08:51 PM

Velly,belly nice!

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#45 dc-65x

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 09:04 PM

Thanks guys :) .

I struggled with detailing the pre-painted body. I couldn't make it look like any "real" Harvey so I tried to make it look like a 1965 commercial slot car. I'm not sure I succeeded but I tried :unknw: .

Noose, I kept thinking if I had the skill with a paint brush that artists like you and Jairus have, this car could have livened the car up quite a bit.

Anywho, I think it looks good on the track and it really is a fun car to drive ;) .

Rick Thigpen
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#46 Old pink can guy

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 09:46 PM

Rick I am lost for words. Never saw anything like that in 65. What a work of Art.
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#47 havlicek

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 10:05 PM

Rick,

THAT is the best Harvey I've ever seen. We chopped them and did all kinds of unholy things to them as a kid. You made the car live again!

-john
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#48 Régis4446

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:07 PM

:good: very beautiful
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#49 slotbaker

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:48 PM

I'm not sure I succeeded but I tried

I reckon you did.
Boy... if those things were for sale back then, we would have been standing in line with our paper run and caddying money burning holes in our pockets.
:)

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#50 Tex

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 11:42 AM

She's a beaut, Rick!
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