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Checkpoint Cup racing procedures discussion


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#1 TSR

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 05:33 PM

Gentlemen,
Please feel free to discuss below, your suggestions and ideas about making the Checkpoint Cup a successful event. The racing Procedures have been posted separately.




#2 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:44 PM

Dear D3 Board,

I have a question, will you be able to protest a questionable motor at the race ? Will there be a protest fee , so that if someone suspects a particular motor, that there is a system in place to do so ?

Mill Conroy
 

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#3 TSR

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:52 PM

Yes:

*The D3 Board of Directors reserves the right to inspect and tear down any motor suspected of tampering. Tear down can be performed at the end of qualifying or at the end of any race. All podium cars WILL be inspected. Any inspection or tear down can be observed by any or all of the racers. A new motor will be supplied free of charge to the racer if the torn down motor is deemed to be legal.

If you suspect someone of motor tampering, please contact one of the Board members so that proper action is taken if warranted.
Please understand that the D3 Board will not tolerate ANY motor tampering and has devised a few ways to catch the culprits if any.
Please be assured that the 2011 will be a cleaner race than any previous editions (IF there were rules violations in previous edtions of course) in this regard.

#4 Tim Neja

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 01:00 AM

This is going to be a fun race. I commend the D-3 board for really attempting to take all the suggestions that have come up and put them into practice to ensure everyone has an equal chance to race. It's nice that Mill is trying to put his finger in any possible dikes --- the procedures sound like they'll make it easy to be sure everyone has fun--races and marshalls'. I'll have to find a helper/ volunteer--don't know if my knees will let me stand too long. Looking forward to seeing you all there.
T
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#5 HarV Wallbanger III

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:47 AM

We will get any questions worked thru ASAP. I it was not for recent problems this would really be a non-issue. We have had to come up with work arounds for all.

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#6 TSR

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:17 PM

Gentlemen,
It is obvious that not every tiny detail can be spelled out in the Race Procedures, and the Board wants to keep the printed matter to a minimum.
However and to make things clearer as there WILL be move-ups, we have added a "move-up" paragraph back in the Race Procedures.

The Board had already decided that required tire diameter for a move-up at the Checkpoint is 13/16" or 0.8125", and that will become standard procedure for all races in the future, in fairness to all racers.

So the added paragraph simply says that the car must meet all D3 regulations, meaning that the tires must meet minimum size.

#7 usadar

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:30 PM

Gentlemen,
It is obvious that not every tiny detail can be spelled out in the Race Procedures, and the Board wants to keep the printed matter to a minimum.
However and to make things clearer as there WILL be move-ups, we have added a "move-up" paragraph back in the Race Procedures.

The Board had already decided that required tire diameter for a move-up at the Checkpoint is 13/16" or 0.8125", and that will become standard procedure for all races in the future, in fairness to all racers.

So the added paragraph simply says that the car must meet all D3 regulations, meaning that the tires must meet minimum size.


Philippe-san,

I agree with the change.

Haruki
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#8 Mike K

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:36 PM

However and to make things clearer as there WILL be move-ups, we have added a "move-up" paragraph back in the Race Procedures.


I suggest two move ups per main. This procedure worked great at the "Fall Brawl" and was encouraging to racers in the lower mains to be able to move up through RACING rather than though a single "HOT LAP" of qualifying.

Move ups:
The winner of each race is allowed to race in the next event at no extra charge. The highest-level D3 officer in attendance can decide if more than one move-up is allowed in any given race.


What is the ranking order of D3 officials???

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
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#9 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:09 PM

:big_boss:<- - - - -> :crazy:



:laugh2: The Seven Dwarfs!! Wasn't one of them named Doc!! :laugh2:

#10 TSR

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:29 PM

What is the ranking order of D3 officials???


Mike,
None. All 7 board members have an equal vote, and you are quoting an older procedure. It no longer applies. :)

As far as two move-ups per race until the "A" race, I fail to see how it would correct a "hot lap" in qualifying, but it is an interesting idea and one I personally like. It certainly would not be difficult to apply if most would agree.

Wasn't one of them named Doc!!


I would not know since my name is not Snow-White, but didn't all of them wear funny hats and how would you know? :D

#11 Mike K

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 09:07 PM

Move ups:
The winner of each race is allowed to race in the next event at no extra charge. The highest-level D3 officer in attendance can decide if more than one move-up is allowed in any given race.


Mike,
None. All 7 board members have an equal vote, and you are quoting an older procedure. It no longer applies. :)


So what does the quote above mean? This is the section you quoted in this thread. Are you quoting an earlier procedure that no longer applies??

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#12 TSR

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:31 PM

Correct. The quote was from Haruki in post # 7 and regards older procedures established at the time the new board established itself in late July.
As shown above in the Checkpoint Cup Race Procedures:

MOVE-UP
The winner of each race is allowed to move up to the next race without paying an extra entry fee.
His car must be submitted to tech inspection no later than 5 minutes after the end of the impound time of the previous race and must meet all D3 regulations including those regarding tires.
If the car is not submitted in time for the beginning of the next race, the race will begin without it, but the car will be allowed to start during the race.


In other words, if you win the "Z" race and want to race the "Y" race, you have 5 minutes after your car has been given back to you by the marshal after the winning car(s) have been technically inspected to put new tires, possibly switch motor and check that everything is still solidly attached. A Board Member will assist you as needed and your car will have to be tech inspected.
The "5 minutes" is an incentive to keep things going on schedule. :)

At this time we are only talking ONE move up per race, but we will discuss more than one and come to a decision quickly.
It matters little since these are race procedures and we are still 3 weeks away.

#13 Gus Kelley

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:31 PM

Hey Philipe! Since my first attendance of races at BPR, Checkpoint2; I've asked about second move-ups through the lower mains: but was quickly cut off. I'm glad to hear of new ears listening to the racers. I do realize that this may impact the time length of the days' racing, but I believe it would give a racer hope to progress after a bad heat. Gus in Sacto
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#14 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:51 PM

Maybe let the racers decide whether they want 1 moveup or 2. Eliminating a few turn marshalls wouldn't be an issue with all the people. Let racers vote 1 or 2 moveups on the signup sheet or just take a vote. I think most would be in favor of 2 moveups.

#15 Mike K

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:39 AM

The "5 minutes" is an incentive to keep things going on schedule. :)


Generous.

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#16 idare2bdul

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:35 AM

The rules saying if your car is dragging it will be at the discretion of the race director as to whether you get disqualified seems to imply that some dragging cars would be allowed. Since this already happened once when I was race directing and I was over ruled by a D3 official and the dragging car was allowed to continue to an eventual podium finish, I'm unsure if you meant this rule to read this way.

I also am leery of your super secret way to determine if a motor has been tampered with. USRA specifies how a motor shall be inspected and what specification will be deemed legal or illegal. Given that we are dealing with a sealed motor it would seem likely that you are talking about advancing the commutator timing. Given the fact that at 5 volts RPM variations under no load typically vary from the high 18,000 rpm range to over 20,000 rpm it's likely some of that disparity is from inconsistency in timing from the factory. Are you developing a gauge or is it the TLAR eyeball method of that looks about right? If someone goes fast in qualifying with a questionable motor will it be torn down before the race or after. If it passes tech and is then disallowed would that not bring tech into question and introduce the question of favoritism, or lack of same. What would be the criteria for a racer who is a non D3 official to protest and trigger an inspection of a motor?
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#17 The Bugman

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:22 AM

that wasnt bullet-proofed,,,,they were "pickled",,,, :drinks: :sarcastic_hand:
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#18 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:34 AM

The rules saying if your car is dragging it will be at the discretion of the race director as to whether you get disqualified seems to imply that some dragging cars would be allowed. Since this already happened once when I was race directing and I was over ruled by a D3 official and the dragging car was allowed to continue to an eventual podium finish, I'm unsure if you meant this rule to read this way.

I also am leery of your super secret way to determine if a motor has been tampered with. USRA specifies how a motor shall be inspected and what specification will be deemed legal or illegal. Given that we are dealing with a sealed motor it would seem likely that you are talking about advancing the commutator timing. Given the fact that at 5 volts RPM variations under no load typically vary from the high 18,000 rpm range to over 20,000 rpm it's likely some of that disparity is from inconsistency in timing from the factory. Are you developing a gauge or is it the TLAR eyeball method of that looks about right? If someone goes fast in qualifying with a questionable motor will it be torn down before the race or after. If it passes tech and is then disallowed would that not bring tech into question and introduce the question of favoritism, or lack of same. What would be the criteria for a racer who is a non D3 official to protest and trigger an inspection of a motor?


Mike,
There will be nothing "super secret" about any determinations on whether a motor has been tampered with or not. Please note, "ANY INSPECTION OR TEARDOWN CAN BE OBSERVED BY ANY OR ALL OF THE RACERS", has been written into the rules. :)

#19 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:54 PM

The rules saying if your car is dragging it will be at the discretion of the race director as to whether you get disqualified seems to imply that some dragging cars would be allowed.


Mike,
It is always a difficult call, and what happened in the past is irrelevant now. If a car is perceived to be dragging, the race director may stop the proceedings so that the car in question be checked on a tech block. If the tires have become too small, its race will be over.
A car that would cause sparks on the contact rails but that would still have legal-size tires would immediately be dismissed from the proceedings, but may return and continue racing if repaired (re-soldered or taped) in view of a D3 Board member under green. In such a case, no parts can be replaced, only repaired.

As far as checking the motors, please read what Bryan has posted as well as the posted procedures.

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#20 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:58 PM

I suggest two move ups per main. This procedure worked great at the "Fall Brawl" and was encouraging to racers in the lower mains to be able to move up through RACING rather than though a single "HOT LAP" of qualifying.

As far as Saturday's race schedule is concerned, I am "not" in favor of having two move ups for each race.
My reason is simple: time.

We have an 8 pm dinner schedule (8 to 10 pm).
Last year's Checkpoint had 39 entries. I'm anticipating about the same number of entries (maybe a few more than last year).
We had 5 mains last year (2011 Checkpoint). The "E" Main had 11 entries, one move up per race. We finished the "A" Main at 7:30 pm.

Obviously, having two move ups will make the race day longer and I don't want it to interfere with our dinner schedule.

Just my opinion,

Keith :)
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#21 Mike K

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:21 PM

As far as Saturday's race schedule is concerned, I am "not" in favor of having two move ups for each race.
My reason is simple: time.

We have an 8 pm dinner schedule (8 to 10 pm).
Last year's Checkpoint had 39 entries. I'm anticipating about the same number of entries (maybe a few more than last year).
We had 5 mains last year (2011 Checkpoint). The "E" Main had 11 entries, one move up per race. We finished the "A" Main at 7:30 pm.

Obviously, having two move ups will make the race day longer and I don't want it to interfere with our dinner schedule.

Just my opinion,

Keith :)


I appreciate your opinion and your involvement.

What say ye other D3 Directors????

I suggest 2 move ups as stated above and eliminate the lunch break to accomodate another main.
We're here to race, not eat...right?? Racers have plenty of time to eat when they are not racing or marshalling.
There is no need to schedule a break for lunch with as many mains as you expect.
Each racer will have at least one hour break when they are not racing or marshalling..
More racing is more fun, eh??? Let's have racing mean more to the outcome than qualifying.
Just my opinion......

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#22 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:44 PM

Mike,
two move ups can only happen if the number of Saturday entries is sufficiently low to pack all the races before we have to leave for the dinner. So a decision should only be taken after all entries have been registered. What if there are 60 entries? Then we would have a serious problem with the dinner time, we might have to split the racing day!

As far as Friday and Sunday, I personally would like the possibility of two move ups, but I think that it is best to leave this decision to each race day, depending also on entries and time.
Again my opinion, and I believe that such decisions are to be made on race day.

#23 Mike K

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:54 PM

too much focus on eating and not racing ...........

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#24 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:05 PM

:laugh2: The Seven Dwarfs!! Wasn't one of them named Doc!! :laugh2:


Their names were Dopey, Grumpy, Doc, Happy, Bashful, Sneezy, & Sleepy.

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#25 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:55 PM

too much focus on eating and not racing ...

Mike, understood, but was not Retro Racing established as a form of low-pressure entertainment for aging old pro racers in the first place? :)
Has it become so serious that it is now a refuge to racers versed in more technically evolved disciplines, and who in a way have rendered it TOO serious?
Should not a peaceful and friendly gathering around a table, just as important as making as many laps as possible with admittedly technically obsolete machinery? :D

Please relax. First, the "lunch" time will not mean that the track will be shut down. Second, if there is any chance for admitting two move ups instead of one after all entries and available time have been considered, please be assured that the best decision will be made.
On race day. :)

Their names were Dopey, Grumpy, Doc, Happy, Bashful, Sneezy, & Sleepy.


Fascinating bit of knowledge about the D3 Board indeed... :laugh2:

#26 Jonathan Forsyth

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 04:11 PM

I do agree with Mike, I don't see any reasoning for a lunch break on Saturday. It's the only race, and with so many mains there will be plenty of opportunities for anyone to go eat. There would be no reasoning to have the track on during a lunch break, as everyone's cars will be in impound.
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#27 S.O. Watt

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:01 PM

And don't forget, somebody(s) gonna be eating it all day :laugh2:

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#28 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:44 PM

Now THAT'S the spirit! :laugh2:

#29 Noose

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:06 PM

We do 2 move-ups all the time. Makes for a guy who may not have qualified well to race his way up.

I don't get how you figure it adds time except 2 cars are checked for the move- up vs. 1.

(null)

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#30 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:09 PM

Noose, it can easily add to one more race, as instead of 7 participants for each race, it requires one less, so depending on the number of entries... you may end up with one more race.
One extra race is, face it, one extra hour.

#31 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:32 PM

I do agree with Mike, I don't see any reasoning for a lunch break on Saturday. It's the only race, and with so many mains there will be plenty of opportunities for anyone to go eat. There would be no reasoning to have the track on during a lunch break, as everyone's cars will be in impound.

Since Jim and Debby Watterson are planning on having a BBQ lunch for Saturday (similar to the one we had for the Hardbody Nats), we'll have a 30 min. break for everyone in order to get their food (while its still hot). I think we should allow the racers in the first race (and turn marshalls) to be first in line so they can get their food, eat and be ready to start the first race within 30 minutes. Everyone else can get their food after the first group goes thru.

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#32 Noose

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:42 PM

PDL, so do 1 move-up then on anything lower than a C and 2 from C and B Mains.

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#33 usadar

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:50 PM

I prefer multiple move-ups to one move-ups to give better chances for the racers who missed their chance at the qualifies, generally speaking.

However, we will have a good chance to have a large turn-outs for Can-Am at the Cup, having a generous offer from Jim & Debby of LUNCH BBQ, as well as a good opportunity to become friends with fellow racers at the DINNER, let us decide what we can do after we find out the actual number of Can-Am entrants, as Philippe-san says.

Maybe, 2 move-ups from B to A Main & 1 move-up between the other mains could be a good compromise, IMO.

Looking forward to seeing you all. :D

Haruki
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#34 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:23 PM

Gentlemen,
Thanks all for your good advice. I think that best is to make these decisions on race day, depending on the number of entries by the time tech inspection closes, at which point we can do the math and figure out what is possible within the allotted time.
Be assured that the D3 Board will do its best to satisfy everyone within these limits.

#35 Mike K

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:40 PM

Mike, understood, but was not Retro Racing established as a form of low-pressure entertainment for aging old pro racers in the first place? :)
Has it become so serious that it is now a refuge to racers versed in more technically evolved disciplines, and who in a way have rendered it TOO serious?
Should not a peaceful and friendly gathering around a table, just as important as making as many laps as possible with admittedly technically obsolete machinery? :D


Don't really know. I have never been a "pro" racer.
Yes it has become too serious.
Friendly events should be the norm, but it has not been that way recently. Especially with all of the allegations of cheating.

Also, I appreciate Haruki's point of view on move ups, but I still think that there should be more to getting into the A main than one hot lap to get in.

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#36 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:27 PM

but I still think that there should be more to getting into the A main than one hot lap to get in.


Laps and sections? :)

#37 Rick

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:39 PM

The difference between seeding the top 8 into two Semis and racing into the A and using the two move-up system is one more race and much fairer way of seeding the Main Event. Noone should ever sit to the A..................
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#38 Tim Neja

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:45 PM

I do agree with Mike, I don't see any reasoning for a lunch break on Saturday. It's the only race, and with so many mains there will be plenty of opportunities for anyone to go eat. There would be no reasoning to have the track on during a lunch break, as everyone's cars will be in impound.


I'm on the "No Lunch Break" deal also--there's PLENTY of down time between qualifying and the mains that everyone will have an opportunity to get lunch. You wont' feed everybody in a 1/2 hour lunch break anyway!! It's GREAT their offering a BBQ lunch---but even when you do a lunch break--1/2 the guys won't eat then because they'll be working on their cars or trying to get some last minute "testing" in! The lunch break just slows down the running of all the mains we need--and delays the finish of the day. It's a waste of valuable time. IMHO!

I"ll help run a main--or be a tech inspector or whatever else you may need to give the D3 directors a break to be able to eat also. You guys don't have to try to do everything yourselves. I'll "Volunteer" and I"m sure many others can too! Let's RACE--and let's HAVE FUN!!!
With the lessons of the past and the good moves of the board with an eye to the future--I'm sure this will be the best D3 race held ever!!

I don't understand why 2 move ups takes soo much more time than one moveup!! If guys KNOW there is going to be moveups---they need to BE SURE that they have another set of tires and a motor if necessary READY TO GO!! IF not--they don't get to move up!! Be ready in 5 minutes or you don't get to start the next main. There's no time to "buy another" hand out motor--solder on a pinion or true a set of tires on your Hudy--IF you suspect you might move up--BE READY!! Then there won't be a lot of time involved to prepare your car for the next main. Simple huh?? The Tech inspectors can have our motors and tires even in impound!!! Then they'll be ready to move up! :):)
T
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#39 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:12 PM

A two "semis" system would diminish the value of a "B" and "C" race, and in D3 racing, the philosophy is that all race winners are equally treated, as winners. Doing this would revert to the old pro-racing system, and I am not so sure that it would be a good thing as it would focus the racers on making the "A" race all too important. Think of it: the D3 system selects the racers for their ability by distributing them in races where each of them is competitive with the next guy. This was the idea and it worked well for the past 5-1/2 years.
This was discussed several times in the past 5-1/2 years, and the conclusion EACH TIME this was discussed, was that most racers (especially the ones with less chances of making the "A" race) liked it the way it is now. Not everyone has the same ideas, but most want the "hot lap" qualifying format and the distribution of races as it is now.

I don't understand why 2 move ups takes soo much more time than one moveup!!


Tim,
Thanks for offering to help.
As previously explained, the addition of another move-up could require the addition of another race (simple math) and one more hour that may be a problem if the Saturday evening restaurant reservation is for a set time.

On any other racing day, it all depends on the number of entries. The lower the number, the easier it becomes to allow two move ups because of less time constraints.

#40 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:13 PM

it's 24 minutes of racing, 16 minutes of pit time and another assorted 15 minutes between races. Hence, roughly one hour.
No problem if we have ample time, problem if we have an obligation of being on time for a dinner, when it takes another 15-20 minutes to get there... :)
Not everything is easy, and we will try to accommodate everyone the best way we can.
I am sure that everything will be good, and that the published procedures will help speed up matters.
Also we don't want to RUSH people, they will be there also to socialize and enjoy themselves. :)

#41 Mark Wampler

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:18 PM

Its rare that I get to race with the top racers because I'm outside qualifying by a tenth or two. Smaller races like coupe and NASCAR will often get you in with the fast guys. That's my plan.

We shouldn't forget "Big Brian" in 2008 who started at the bottom 4th main and moved all the way up and was finally stopped by "Pistol" Pete Zimmerman in the A main. I favor move up all the way.
You can quote me.

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#42 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:39 PM

I think a 1 minute qualifying format of Laps and Sections would be fantastic!!
Let's forget about any formal lunch break. Eat when you can.
If 2 moveups throughout all the races will pose a time problem at least have 2 moveups from the B to the A Main. :)

#43 Tim Neja

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:08 AM

I guess it always amaze's me when people who will NEVER come race with us--want to help us run the race?? :dash2: If you don't have a dog in the game--why try to feed it here!! :crazy: It's all good-- I'm sure the D3 crew will find a way to have the race run efficiently, and have FUN doing it!! I don't care about having 2 semis either--the current A,B,C format has been working well for many years. But the ability to have more move-ups would be nice--but if we have too many racers to do it--so be it. I don't like to have to sit around the raceway for 8 hours and get 24 minutes of run time + qualifying and a little practice. I also have a life-- :victory: -- Looking forward to enjoying a nice turnout and lot's of fun racing with old friends. :good: MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!! And a HAPPY NEW YEAR!! :D :good:
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#44 idare2bdul

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:18 AM

I'm still waiting for the criteria for determining if a motor has been tampered with.

If you don't catch it in tech, then it's impounded. If you suspect it's been tampered with after qualifying do you tear it down then? Do you let it run it's main and then tear it down?

While a handout motor system may be fair, the swoopy King track at Buena Park puts too much emphasis on horsepower. It can be very difficult to overcome a horsepower deficit. Combine that with the fact that most of the rest of the country run 100 gram minimum weight rules and different F1 body and chassis rules it takes a pretty optimistic racer to come West and expect to be competitive but racers like Gorski and Sano Dave have done it successfully.
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#45 Mark Wampler

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:42 AM

Last Western States a lunch was served, but I passed since there was car prep going on. Eat when you can. I kept left over Breakfast Burrito handy at the pits from Imperials that lasted 'til 2pm.
You can quote me.

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#46 Jonathan Forsyth

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:08 AM

Since Jim and Debby Watterson are planning on having a BBQ lunch for Saturday (similar to the one we had for the Hardbody Nats), we'll have a 30 min. break for everyone in order to get their food (while its still hot). I think we should allow the racers in the first race (and turn marshalls) to be first in line so they can get their food, eat and be ready to start the first race within 30 minutes. Everyone else can get their food after the first group goes thru.

Keith

That makes perfect sense Keith, I have no problem with that.
I'm just excited to get to race for the 1st time since July.

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#47 TSR

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:37 PM

Wise words from one of the Seven Dwarfs:

I think a 1 minute qualifying format of Laps and Sections would be fantastic!!
Let's forget about any formal lunch break. Eat when you can.
If 2 moveups throughout all the races will pose a time problem at least have 2 moveups from the B to the A Main.


As another Dwarf, I approve... :)

I'm still waiting for the criteria for determining if a motor has been tampered with.


Mike, the criteria is when someone passes your car on the straight and ends in the "deadman" 6 feet ahead of your car, every lap on every lane. This requires a bit of scrutiny, and now the D3 Board has a pretty good idea of what to look for. What's your problem with that?

Rob and I had the misconception it was about a race not a banquet.


Well, let see now. The raceway owners are kind enough to offer a free lunch to entrants. Then, there is a dinner time on the evening. "formal" lunch-break time can be forgotten, and racers can simply eat when time permits, but it still remains that the get-together dinner time must be respected.
Please, don't make an omelet out of it for Lord's sake. If you don't wish to participate, don't. :dash2:

And...

I guess it always amaze's me when people who will NEVER come race with us--want to help us run the race?? :dash2: If you don't have a dog in the game--why try to feed it here!!


It is quite amazing to read the threads regarding ANY other "important" retro races on this forum. Hardly EVER will you read criticism or advice from D3 racers regarding any of the races organized by IRRA or any other retro organizations, but almost all D3 races are being analyzed, criticized, even vilified by individuals who have no plans to participate.
I guess it is the nature of the beast, but people, PLEASE! :heat:
For the ones who are, please feel welcome, please do not hesitate to express your concerns if any, and be assured that the D3 Board will do its utmost so as to provide you with a great and fun weekend.

#48 idare2bdul

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:34 PM

"...Mike, the criteria is when someone passes your car on the straight and ends in the "deadman" 6 feet ahead of your car, every lap on every lane. This requires a bit of scrutiny, and now the D3 Board has a pretty good idea of what to look for. What's your problem with that?"

That seems extreme as even your best cheater motor was only 4 feet faster down the straight than my legal cars.
I'm still waiting for your criteria to decide if a motor sealed with a spot weld has been modified. The only thing I can dream up is if the timing has been advanced past what could be a factory timing mistake. This could be spotted in tech. There might also be glue residue around the commutator to make sure the advanced commutator doesn't spin like the problem we used to have with some Slick7 motors. There is of course the possibility that the illegal motor was sprayed with fairy dust which is hard to test for.

There is also the possibility that D3 doesn't have an actual criteria other than the That Looks About Right method which could be applied at tech and the rest of this nonsense wouldn't be necessary. Since we aren't racing for a purse or the advertising bragging rights for a particular brand of motor, there isn't a huge incentive to cheat.

I'd be willing to take a chance on cheaters to have the convenience of showing up for the race with a motor already installed in my car and not have to thrash at the track. When we first went to this handout system I had 2 cars crashed out in practice by other drivers trying to dial in their cars in a hurried manner. That took a lot of the fun out of it for me.

If you want to eliminate the cheating possibility you could also mandate no gear ratio above 2.9-1. Since cheaters can't find a way to make more torque they have to be doing it with increased RPM.

So do you have an actural criteria for cheater motors?
The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
Mike Boemker

#49 Bernie

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:37 PM

LEAVE THE MAN ALONE! :boredom: It appears he and the other D3 Board members are trying to do the best they can to organize one of the premier Retro Races in the country. Seems to me they have done a pretty good job in the past and I am sure they will again. If the event does not fit your perception of how an event should be run, do not attend. Simple. :sun_bespectacled:
Bernie Schatz

#50 TSR

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 06:11 PM

So do you have an actual criteria for cheater motors?


Mike,
First, you appear to be making accusations that are not only unwarranted but border on slander. To make such accusations, you must submit solid evidence to back your claim. I would be you, I would begin measuring my words here, and would appreciate that if indeed you decide to go this way, better show some clear evidence for all to see.

Now, addressing your question once again:
Yes, the D3 Board now does. When the subject of tampered motors came up over the past few years, nothing much was done about it other than witness that while the vast majority of the racers were playing fair, a few were not.

The D3 Board has now acquired solid, physical evidence of motor tampering. It is none of your business to know what the Board has acquired and what has been modified to increase performance. The Board has tested the alleged items and has found a solid on-track performance advantage using such items. This tampering (because this is what it is) has been done and/or used by very few racers, who took full advantage of it in the past. So while it was never truly addressed in the past, it is being addressed now for the good of all the racers that DO play fair.

Members of the D3 Board have been able to verify that the construction of the motors used in our racing is performed with very tight tolerances for such low-cost motors, especially in their winding specification (I believe that anyone who verified this in the past, including IRRA officers, failed to find a single motor out of spec, correct me if wrong), magnets Gauss readings, armature timing and general outer and inner dimensions.

The criteria is, after someone will have placed a protest to the Race Director (and that someone can be a racer, a Board member or anyone from the raceway management), the Board will visually inspect the alleged motor, decide if the protest is warranted, and if so, the alleged modified motor will be stripped and compared in its specification to a sample of a stripped stock motor at hand.

A person protesting a motor will be asked to place a "bond" to the Board, of which amount has not been finalized yet (likely twice the retail value of an identical motor), that will be refunded if the alleged motor is deemed to have been tampered with. If the motor is deemed to be legal, the accused racer/owner will collect the amount of the bond so as to purchase a replacement motor plus as yet unspecified financial or other damages. if the motor is deemed to have been altered for performance improvement, the owner/racer/manufacturer of the car in which said motor was fitted will be excluded from the event, with more punishment to be decided by the Board after a full inquiry has been conducted.





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