Jump to content




Photo

Checkpoint Cup racing procedures discussion


  • Please log in to reply
105 replies to this topic

#1 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,564 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 17 December 2011 - 05:33 PM

Gentlemen,
Please feel free to discuss below, your suggestions and ideas about making the Checkpoint Cup a successful event. The racing Procedures have been posted separately.




#2 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:44 PM

Dear D3 Board,

I have a question, will you be able to protest a questionable motor at the race ? Will there be a protest fee , so that if someone suspects a particular motor, that there is a system in place to do so ?

Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#3 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,564 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:52 PM

Yes:

*The D3 Board of Directors reserves the right to inspect and tear down any motor suspected of tampering. Tear down can be performed at the end of qualifying or at the end of any race. All podium cars WILL be inspected. Any inspection or tear down can be observed by any or all of the racers. A new motor will be supplied free of charge to the racer if the torn down motor is deemed to be legal.

If you suspect someone of motor tampering, please contact one of the Board members so that proper action is taken if warranted.
Please understand that the D3 Board will not tolerate ANY motor tampering and has devised a few ways to catch the culprits if any.
Please be assured that the 2011 will be a cleaner race than any previous editions (IF there were rules violations in previous edtions of course) in this regard.

#4 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,541 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County

Posted 18 December 2011 - 01:00 AM

This is going to be a fun race. I commend the D-3 board for really attempting to take all the suggestions that have come up and put them into practice to ensure everyone has an equal chance to race. It's nice that Mill is trying to put his finger in any possible dikes --- the procedures sound like they'll make it easy to be sure everyone has fun--races and marshalls'. I'll have to find a helper/ volunteer--don't know if my knees will let me stand too long. Looking forward to seeing you all there.
T
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#5 HarV Wallbanger III

HarV Wallbanger III

    Racing inta OLD age!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,023 posts
  • Joined: 19-June 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"El Rancho en Debto", SoCal!

Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:47 AM

We will get any questions worked thru ASAP. I it was not for recent problems this would really be a non-issue. We have had to come up with work arounds for all.

Barney Poynor
"BRONCO" BARNEY
Team CORT!

Hello my name is Barney and I was... I am addicted to glue, magnets, and wings... I have been clean and sober years now... NOW I'm hooked on 1/32 club track racing! Dang!
 

"Even if you're on the Right Track, you'll get run over if you just sit there!"

If you remember
screw-on braid, motors that look like padlocks, that dang fuse wire in Cox controllers, "hand" painted bodies, the very first can motors from Mabuchi, and the smell of wintergreen then you are OLD!... like me!

Enjoy life! Race Slot Cars and read SlotBlog!


#6 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,564 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:17 PM

Gentlemen,
It is obvious that not every tiny detail can be spelled out in the Race Procedures, and the Board wants to keep the printed matter to a minimum.
However and to make things clearer as there WILL be move-ups, we have added a "move-up" paragraph back in the Race Procedures.

The Board had already decided that required tire diameter for a move-up at the Checkpoint is 13/16" or 0.8125", and that will become standard procedure for all races in the future, in fairness to all racers.

So the added paragraph simply says that the car must meet all D3 regulations, meaning that the tires must meet minimum size.

#7 usadar

usadar

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,141 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo; Japan

Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:30 PM

Gentlemen,
It is obvious that not every tiny detail can be spelled out in the Race Procedures, and the Board wants to keep the printed matter to a minimum.
However and to make things clearer as there WILL be move-ups, we have added a "move-up" paragraph back in the Race Procedures.

The Board had already decided that required tire diameter for a move-up at the Checkpoint is 13/16" or 0.8125", and that will become standard procedure for all races in the future, in fairness to all racers.

So the added paragraph simply says that the car must meet all D3 regulations, meaning that the tires must meet minimum size.


Philippe-san,

I agree with the change.

Haruki
Haruki Kan
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo on Facebook
 
Where do we go from here: chaos or community?

#8 Mike K

Mike K

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,247 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:36 PM

However and to make things clearer as there WILL be move-ups, we have added a "move-up" paragraph back in the Race Procedures.


I suggest two move ups per main. This procedure worked great at the "Fall Brawl" and was encouraging to racers in the lower mains to be able to move up through RACING rather than though a single "HOT LAP" of qualifying.

Move ups:
The winner of each race is allowed to race in the next event at no extra charge. The highest-level D3 officer in attendance can decide if more than one move-up is allowed in any given race.


What is the ranking order of D3 officials???

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#9 Bryan Warmack

Bryan Warmack

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,518 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:09 PM

:big_boss:<- - - - -> :crazy:



:laugh2: The Seven Dwarfs!! Wasn't one of them named Doc!! :laugh2:

#10 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,564 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:29 PM

What is the ranking order of D3 officials???


Mike,
None. All 7 board members have an equal vote, and you are quoting an older procedure. It no longer applies. :)

As far as two move-ups per race until the "A" race, I fail to see how it would correct a "hot lap" in qualifying, but it is an interesting idea and one I personally like. It certainly would not be difficult to apply if most would agree.

Wasn't one of them named Doc!!


I would not know since my name is not Snow-White, but didn't all of them wear funny hats and how would you know? :D

#11 Mike K

Mike K

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,247 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2011 - 09:07 PM

Move ups:
The winner of each race is allowed to race in the next event at no extra charge. The highest-level D3 officer in attendance can decide if more than one move-up is allowed in any given race.


Mike,
None. All 7 board members have an equal vote, and you are quoting an older procedure. It no longer applies. :)


So what does the quote above mean? This is the section you quoted in this thread. Are you quoting an earlier procedure that no longer applies??

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#12 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,564 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:31 PM

Correct. The quote was from Haruki in post # 7 and regards older procedures established at the time the new board established itself in late July.
As shown above in the Checkpoint Cup Race Procedures:

MOVE-UP
The winner of each race is allowed to move up to the next race without paying an extra entry fee.
His car must be submitted to tech inspection no later than 5 minutes after the end of the impound time of the previous race and must meet all D3 regulations including those regarding tires.
If the car is not submitted in time for the beginning of the next race, the race will begin without it, but the car will be allowed to start during the race.


In other words, if you win the "Z" race and want to race the "Y" race, you have 5 minutes after your car has been given back to you by the marshal after the winning car(s) have been technically inspected to put new tires, possibly switch motor and check that everything is still solidly attached. A Board Member will assist you as needed and your car will have to be tech inspected.
The "5 minutes" is an incentive to keep things going on schedule. :)

At this time we are only talking ONE move up per race, but we will discuss more than one and come to a decision quickly.
It matters little since these are race procedures and we are still 3 weeks away.

#13 Gus Kelley

Gus Kelley

    Race Leader

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 501 posts
  • Joined: 23-August 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sacramento, CA - always

Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:31 PM

Hey Philipe! Since my first attendance of races at BPR, Checkpoint2; I've asked about second move-ups through the lower mains: but was quickly cut off. I'm glad to hear of new ears listening to the racers. I do realize that this may impact the time length of the days' racing, but I believe it would give a racer hope to progress after a bad heat. Gus in Sacto
Gus Kelley
12/01/54-7/22/14
Requiescat in Pace

#14 Bryan Warmack

Bryan Warmack

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,518 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:51 PM

Maybe let the racers decide whether they want 1 moveup or 2. Eliminating a few turn marshalls wouldn't be an issue with all the people. Let racers vote 1 or 2 moveups on the signup sheet or just take a vote. I think most would be in favor of 2 moveups.

#15 Mike K

Mike K

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,247 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:39 AM

The "5 minutes" is an incentive to keep things going on schedule. :)


Generous.

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#16 idare2bdul

idare2bdul

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,649 posts
  • Joined: 06-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Garner, NC

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:35 AM

The rules saying if your car is dragging it will be at the discretion of the race director as to whether you get disqualified seems to imply that some dragging cars would be allowed. Since this already happened once when I was race directing and I was over ruled by a D3 official and the dragging car was allowed to continue to an eventual podium finish, I'm unsure if you meant this rule to read this way.

I also am leery of your super secret way to determine if a motor has been tampered with. USRA specifies how a motor shall be inspected and what specification will be deemed legal or illegal. Given that we are dealing with a sealed motor it would seem likely that you are talking about advancing the commutator timing. Given the fact that at 5 volts RPM variations under no load typically vary from the high 18,000 rpm range to over 20,000 rpm it's likely some of that disparity is from inconsistency in timing from the factory. Are you developing a gauge or is it the TLAR eyeball method of that looks about right? If someone goes fast in qualifying with a questionable motor will it be torn down before the race or after. If it passes tech and is then disallowed would that not bring tech into question and introduce the question of favoritism, or lack of same. What would be the criteria for a racer who is a non D3 official to protest and trigger an inspection of a motor?
The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
Mike Boemker

#17 The Bugman

The Bugman

    a dearly-missed departed member

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,989 posts
  • Joined: 22-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harbor City, CA

Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:22 AM

that wasnt bullet-proofed,,,,they were "pickled",,,, :drinks: :sarcastic_hand:
Oscar Morales
8/16/49-9/18/13
Requiescat in Pace

#18 Bryan Warmack

Bryan Warmack

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,518 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:34 AM

The rules saying if your car is dragging it will be at the discretion of the race director as to whether you get disqualified seems to imply that some dragging cars would be allowed. Since this already happened once when I was race directing and I was over ruled by a D3 official and the dragging car was allowed to continue to an eventual podium finish, I'm unsure if you meant this rule to read this way.

I also am leery of your super secret way to determine if a motor has been tampered with. USRA specifies how a motor shall be inspected and what specification will be deemed legal or illegal. Given that we are dealing with a sealed motor it would seem likely that you are talking about advancing the commutator timing. Given the fact that at 5 volts RPM variations under no load typically vary from the high 18,000 rpm range to over 20,000 rpm it's likely some of that disparity is from inconsistency in timing from the factory. Are you developing a gauge or is it the TLAR eyeball method of that looks about right? If someone goes fast in qualifying with a questionable motor will it be torn down before the race or after. If it passes tech and is then disallowed would that not bring tech into question and introduce the question of favoritism, or lack of same. What would be the criteria for a racer who is a non D3 official to protest and trigger an inspection of a motor?


Mike,
There will be nothing "super secret" about any determinations on whether a motor has been tampered with or not. Please note, "ANY INSPECTION OR TEARDOWN CAN BE OBSERVED BY ANY OR ALL OF THE RACERS", has been written into the rules. :)

#19 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,564 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:54 PM

The rules saying if your car is dragging it will be at the discretion of the race director as to whether you get disqualified seems to imply that some dragging cars would be allowed.


Mike,
It is always a difficult call, and what happened in the past is irrelevant now. If a car is perceived to be dragging, the race director may stop the proceedings so that the car in question be checked on a tech block. If the tires have become too small, its race will be over.
A car that would cause sparks on the contact rails but that would still have legal-size tires would immediately be dismissed from the proceedings, but may return and continue racing if repaired (re-soldered or taped) in view of a D3 Board member under green. In such a case, no parts can be replaced, only repaired.

As far as checking the motors, please read what Bryan has posted as well as the posted procedures.

A DB5 Volante on the lift?

Actually, DB4 coupe modified by Simon (the maniac holding the gun) to DB4GT headlights.
He's done a couple already. He might be a bit wild and drink too much but he knows his metal forming and welding better than most men alive.

#20 Keith Tanaka

Keith Tanaka

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,818 posts
  • Joined: 18-June 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Covina, CA

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:58 PM

I suggest two move ups per main. This procedure worked great at the "Fall Brawl" and was encouraging to racers in the lower mains to be able to move up through RACING rather than though a single "HOT LAP" of qualifying.

As far as Saturday's race schedule is concerned, I am "not" in favor of having two move ups for each race.
My reason is simple: time.

We have an 8 pm dinner schedule (8 to 10 pm).
Last year's Checkpoint had 39 entries. I'm anticipating about the same number of entries (maybe a few more than last year).
We had 5 mains last year (2011 Checkpoint). The "E" Main had 11 entries, one move up per race. We finished the "A" Main at 7:30 pm.

Obviously, having two move ups will make the race day longer and I don't want it to interfere with our dinner schedule.

Just my opinion,

Keith :)
Team Rolling Hills circa '66-'68

#21 Mike K

Mike K

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,247 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:21 PM

As far as Saturday's race schedule is concerned, I am "not" in favor of having two move ups for each race.
My reason is simple: time.

We have an 8 pm dinner schedule (8 to 10 pm).
Last year's Checkpoint had 39 entries. I'm anticipating about the same number of entries (maybe a few more than last year).
We had 5 mains last year (2011 Checkpoint). The "E" Main had 11 entries, one move up per race. We finished the "A" Main at 7:30 pm.

Obviously, having two move ups will make the race day longer and I don't want it to interfere with our dinner schedule.

Just my opinion,

Keith :)


I appreciate your opinion and your involvement.

What say ye other D3 Directors????

I suggest 2 move ups as stated above and eliminate the lunch break to accomodate another main.
We're here to race, not eat...right?? Racers have plenty of time to eat when they are not racing or marshalling.
There is no need to schedule a break for lunch with as many mains as you expect.
Each racer will have at least one hour break when they are not racing or marshalling..
More racing is more fun, eh??? Let's have racing mean more to the outcome than qualifying.
Just my opinion......

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#22 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,564 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:44 PM

Mike,
two move ups can only happen if the number of Saturday entries is sufficiently low to pack all the races before we have to leave for the dinner. So a decision should only be taken after all entries have been registered. What if there are 60 entries? Then we would have a serious problem with the dinner time, we might have to split the racing day!

As far as Friday and Sunday, I personally would like the possibility of two move ups, but I think that it is best to leave this decision to each race day, depending also on entries and time.
Again my opinion, and I believe that such decisions are to be made on race day.

#23 Mike K

Mike K

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,247 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:54 PM

too much focus on eating and not racing ...........

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#24 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,919 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:05 PM

:laugh2: The Seven Dwarfs!! Wasn't one of them named Doc!! :laugh2:


Their names were Dopey, Grumpy, Doc, Happy, Bashful, Sneezy, & Sleepy.

Bill Fernald
 

How old should a highway be before you tell it, that it has been adopted?


#25 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,564 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:55 PM

too much focus on eating and not racing ...

Mike, understood, but was not Retro Racing established as a form of low-pressure entertainment for aging old pro racers in the first place? :)
Has it become so serious that it is now a refuge to racers versed in more technically evolved disciplines, and who in a way have rendered it TOO serious?
Should not a peaceful and friendly gathering around a table, just as important as making as many laps as possible with admittedly technically obsolete machinery? :D

Please relax. First, the "lunch" time will not mean that the track will be shut down. Second, if there is any chance for admitting two move ups instead of one after all entries and available time have been considered, please be assured that the best decision will be made.
On race day. :)

Their names were Dopey, Grumpy, Doc, Happy, Bashful, Sneezy, & Sleepy.


Fascinating bit of knowledge about the D3 Board indeed... :laugh2:





Electric Dreams Online Shop