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Checkpoint Cup racing procedures discussion


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#26 Jonathan Forsyth

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 04:11 PM

I do agree with Mike, I don't see any reasoning for a lunch break on Saturday. It's the only race, and with so many mains there will be plenty of opportunities for anyone to go eat. There would be no reasoning to have the track on during a lunch break, as everyone's cars will be in impound.
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#27 S.O. Watt

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:01 PM

And don't forget, somebody(s) gonna be eating it all day :laugh2:

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#28 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:44 PM

Now THAT'S the spirit! :laugh2:

#29 Noose

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:06 PM

We do 2 move-ups all the time. Makes for a guy who may not have qualified well to race his way up.

I don't get how you figure it adds time except 2 cars are checked for the move- up vs. 1.

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#30 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:09 PM

Noose, it can easily add to one more race, as instead of 7 participants for each race, it requires one less, so depending on the number of entries... you may end up with one more race.
One extra race is, face it, one extra hour.

#31 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:32 PM

I do agree with Mike, I don't see any reasoning for a lunch break on Saturday. It's the only race, and with so many mains there will be plenty of opportunities for anyone to go eat. There would be no reasoning to have the track on during a lunch break, as everyone's cars will be in impound.

Since Jim and Debby Watterson are planning on having a BBQ lunch for Saturday (similar to the one we had for the Hardbody Nats), we'll have a 30 min. break for everyone in order to get their food (while its still hot). I think we should allow the racers in the first race (and turn marshalls) to be first in line so they can get their food, eat and be ready to start the first race within 30 minutes. Everyone else can get their food after the first group goes thru.

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#32 Noose

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:42 PM

PDL, so do 1 move-up then on anything lower than a C and 2 from C and B Mains.

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#33 usadar

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:50 PM

I prefer multiple move-ups to one move-ups to give better chances for the racers who missed their chance at the qualifies, generally speaking.

However, we will have a good chance to have a large turn-outs for Can-Am at the Cup, having a generous offer from Jim & Debby of LUNCH BBQ, as well as a good opportunity to become friends with fellow racers at the DINNER, let us decide what we can do after we find out the actual number of Can-Am entrants, as Philippe-san says.

Maybe, 2 move-ups from B to A Main & 1 move-up between the other mains could be a good compromise, IMO.

Looking forward to seeing you all. :D

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#34 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:23 PM

Gentlemen,
Thanks all for your good advice. I think that best is to make these decisions on race day, depending on the number of entries by the time tech inspection closes, at which point we can do the math and figure out what is possible within the allotted time.
Be assured that the D3 Board will do its best to satisfy everyone within these limits.

#35 Mike K

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:40 PM

Mike, understood, but was not Retro Racing established as a form of low-pressure entertainment for aging old pro racers in the first place? :)
Has it become so serious that it is now a refuge to racers versed in more technically evolved disciplines, and who in a way have rendered it TOO serious?
Should not a peaceful and friendly gathering around a table, just as important as making as many laps as possible with admittedly technically obsolete machinery? :D


Don't really know. I have never been a "pro" racer.
Yes it has become too serious.
Friendly events should be the norm, but it has not been that way recently. Especially with all of the allegations of cheating.

Also, I appreciate Haruki's point of view on move ups, but I still think that there should be more to getting into the A main than one hot lap to get in.

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
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#36 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:27 PM

but I still think that there should be more to getting into the A main than one hot lap to get in.


Laps and sections? :)

#37 Rick

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:39 PM

The difference between seeding the top 8 into two Semis and racing into the A and using the two move-up system is one more race and much fairer way of seeding the Main Event. Noone should ever sit to the A..................
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#38 Tim Neja

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:45 PM

I do agree with Mike, I don't see any reasoning for a lunch break on Saturday. It's the only race, and with so many mains there will be plenty of opportunities for anyone to go eat. There would be no reasoning to have the track on during a lunch break, as everyone's cars will be in impound.


I'm on the "No Lunch Break" deal also--there's PLENTY of down time between qualifying and the mains that everyone will have an opportunity to get lunch. You wont' feed everybody in a 1/2 hour lunch break anyway!! It's GREAT their offering a BBQ lunch---but even when you do a lunch break--1/2 the guys won't eat then because they'll be working on their cars or trying to get some last minute "testing" in! The lunch break just slows down the running of all the mains we need--and delays the finish of the day. It's a waste of valuable time. IMHO!

I"ll help run a main--or be a tech inspector or whatever else you may need to give the D3 directors a break to be able to eat also. You guys don't have to try to do everything yourselves. I'll "Volunteer" and I"m sure many others can too! Let's RACE--and let's HAVE FUN!!!
With the lessons of the past and the good moves of the board with an eye to the future--I'm sure this will be the best D3 race held ever!!

I don't understand why 2 move ups takes soo much more time than one moveup!! If guys KNOW there is going to be moveups---they need to BE SURE that they have another set of tires and a motor if necessary READY TO GO!! IF not--they don't get to move up!! Be ready in 5 minutes or you don't get to start the next main. There's no time to "buy another" hand out motor--solder on a pinion or true a set of tires on your Hudy--IF you suspect you might move up--BE READY!! Then there won't be a lot of time involved to prepare your car for the next main. Simple huh?? The Tech inspectors can have our motors and tires even in impound!!! Then they'll be ready to move up! :):)
T
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#39 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:12 PM

A two "semis" system would diminish the value of a "B" and "C" race, and in D3 racing, the philosophy is that all race winners are equally treated, as winners. Doing this would revert to the old pro-racing system, and I am not so sure that it would be a good thing as it would focus the racers on making the "A" race all too important. Think of it: the D3 system selects the racers for their ability by distributing them in races where each of them is competitive with the next guy. This was the idea and it worked well for the past 5-1/2 years.
This was discussed several times in the past 5-1/2 years, and the conclusion EACH TIME this was discussed, was that most racers (especially the ones with less chances of making the "A" race) liked it the way it is now. Not everyone has the same ideas, but most want the "hot lap" qualifying format and the distribution of races as it is now.

I don't understand why 2 move ups takes soo much more time than one moveup!!


Tim,
Thanks for offering to help.
As previously explained, the addition of another move-up could require the addition of another race (simple math) and one more hour that may be a problem if the Saturday evening restaurant reservation is for a set time.

On any other racing day, it all depends on the number of entries. The lower the number, the easier it becomes to allow two move ups because of less time constraints.

#40 TSR

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:13 PM

it's 24 minutes of racing, 16 minutes of pit time and another assorted 15 minutes between races. Hence, roughly one hour.
No problem if we have ample time, problem if we have an obligation of being on time for a dinner, when it takes another 15-20 minutes to get there... :)
Not everything is easy, and we will try to accommodate everyone the best way we can.
I am sure that everything will be good, and that the published procedures will help speed up matters.
Also we don't want to RUSH people, they will be there also to socialize and enjoy themselves. :)

#41 Mark Wampler

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:18 PM

Its rare that I get to race with the top racers because I'm outside qualifying by a tenth or two. Smaller races like coupe and NASCAR will often get you in with the fast guys. That's my plan.

We shouldn't forget "Big Brian" in 2008 who started at the bottom 4th main and moved all the way up and was finally stopped by "Pistol" Pete Zimmerman in the A main. I favor move up all the way.
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#42 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:39 PM

I think a 1 minute qualifying format of Laps and Sections would be fantastic!!
Let's forget about any formal lunch break. Eat when you can.
If 2 moveups throughout all the races will pose a time problem at least have 2 moveups from the B to the A Main. :)

#43 Tim Neja

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:08 AM

I guess it always amaze's me when people who will NEVER come race with us--want to help us run the race?? :dash2: If you don't have a dog in the game--why try to feed it here!! :crazy: It's all good-- I'm sure the D3 crew will find a way to have the race run efficiently, and have FUN doing it!! I don't care about having 2 semis either--the current A,B,C format has been working well for many years. But the ability to have more move-ups would be nice--but if we have too many racers to do it--so be it. I don't like to have to sit around the raceway for 8 hours and get 24 minutes of run time + qualifying and a little practice. I also have a life-- :victory: -- Looking forward to enjoying a nice turnout and lot's of fun racing with old friends. :good: MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!! And a HAPPY NEW YEAR!! :D :good:
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#44 idare2bdul

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:18 AM

I'm still waiting for the criteria for determining if a motor has been tampered with.

If you don't catch it in tech, then it's impounded. If you suspect it's been tampered with after qualifying do you tear it down then? Do you let it run it's main and then tear it down?

While a handout motor system may be fair, the swoopy King track at Buena Park puts too much emphasis on horsepower. It can be very difficult to overcome a horsepower deficit. Combine that with the fact that most of the rest of the country run 100 gram minimum weight rules and different F1 body and chassis rules it takes a pretty optimistic racer to come West and expect to be competitive but racers like Gorski and Sano Dave have done it successfully.
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#45 Mark Wampler

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:42 AM

Last Western States a lunch was served, but I passed since there was car prep going on. Eat when you can. I kept left over Breakfast Burrito handy at the pits from Imperials that lasted 'til 2pm.
You can quote me.

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#46 Jonathan Forsyth

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:08 AM

Since Jim and Debby Watterson are planning on having a BBQ lunch for Saturday (similar to the one we had for the Hardbody Nats), we'll have a 30 min. break for everyone in order to get their food (while its still hot). I think we should allow the racers in the first race (and turn marshalls) to be first in line so they can get their food, eat and be ready to start the first race within 30 minutes. Everyone else can get their food after the first group goes thru.

Keith

That makes perfect sense Keith, I have no problem with that.
I'm just excited to get to race for the 1st time since July.

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#47 TSR

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:37 PM

Wise words from one of the Seven Dwarfs:

I think a 1 minute qualifying format of Laps and Sections would be fantastic!!
Let's forget about any formal lunch break. Eat when you can.
If 2 moveups throughout all the races will pose a time problem at least have 2 moveups from the B to the A Main.


As another Dwarf, I approve... :)

I'm still waiting for the criteria for determining if a motor has been tampered with.


Mike, the criteria is when someone passes your car on the straight and ends in the "deadman" 6 feet ahead of your car, every lap on every lane. This requires a bit of scrutiny, and now the D3 Board has a pretty good idea of what to look for. What's your problem with that?

Rob and I had the misconception it was about a race not a banquet.


Well, let see now. The raceway owners are kind enough to offer a free lunch to entrants. Then, there is a dinner time on the evening. "formal" lunch-break time can be forgotten, and racers can simply eat when time permits, but it still remains that the get-together dinner time must be respected.
Please, don't make an omelet out of it for Lord's sake. If you don't wish to participate, don't. :dash2:

And...

I guess it always amaze's me when people who will NEVER come race with us--want to help us run the race?? :dash2: If you don't have a dog in the game--why try to feed it here!!


It is quite amazing to read the threads regarding ANY other "important" retro races on this forum. Hardly EVER will you read criticism or advice from D3 racers regarding any of the races organized by IRRA or any other retro organizations, but almost all D3 races are being analyzed, criticized, even vilified by individuals who have no plans to participate.
I guess it is the nature of the beast, but people, PLEASE! :heat:
For the ones who are, please feel welcome, please do not hesitate to express your concerns if any, and be assured that the D3 Board will do its utmost so as to provide you with a great and fun weekend.

#48 idare2bdul

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:34 PM

"...Mike, the criteria is when someone passes your car on the straight and ends in the "deadman" 6 feet ahead of your car, every lap on every lane. This requires a bit of scrutiny, and now the D3 Board has a pretty good idea of what to look for. What's your problem with that?"

That seems extreme as even your best cheater motor was only 4 feet faster down the straight than my legal cars.
I'm still waiting for your criteria to decide if a motor sealed with a spot weld has been modified. The only thing I can dream up is if the timing has been advanced past what could be a factory timing mistake. This could be spotted in tech. There might also be glue residue around the commutator to make sure the advanced commutator doesn't spin like the problem we used to have with some Slick7 motors. There is of course the possibility that the illegal motor was sprayed with fairy dust which is hard to test for.

There is also the possibility that D3 doesn't have an actual criteria other than the That Looks About Right method which could be applied at tech and the rest of this nonsense wouldn't be necessary. Since we aren't racing for a purse or the advertising bragging rights for a particular brand of motor, there isn't a huge incentive to cheat.

I'd be willing to take a chance on cheaters to have the convenience of showing up for the race with a motor already installed in my car and not have to thrash at the track. When we first went to this handout system I had 2 cars crashed out in practice by other drivers trying to dial in their cars in a hurried manner. That took a lot of the fun out of it for me.

If you want to eliminate the cheating possibility you could also mandate no gear ratio above 2.9-1. Since cheaters can't find a way to make more torque they have to be doing it with increased RPM.

So do you have an actural criteria for cheater motors?
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#49 Bernie

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:37 PM

LEAVE THE MAN ALONE! :boredom: It appears he and the other D3 Board members are trying to do the best they can to organize one of the premier Retro Races in the country. Seems to me they have done a pretty good job in the past and I am sure they will again. If the event does not fit your perception of how an event should be run, do not attend. Simple. :sun_bespectacled:
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#50 TSR

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 06:11 PM

So do you have an actual criteria for cheater motors?


Mike,
First, you appear to be making accusations that are not only unwarranted but border on slander. To make such accusations, you must submit solid evidence to back your claim. I would be you, I would begin measuring my words here, and would appreciate that if indeed you decide to go this way, better show some clear evidence for all to see.

Now, addressing your question once again:
Yes, the D3 Board now does. When the subject of tampered motors came up over the past few years, nothing much was done about it other than witness that while the vast majority of the racers were playing fair, a few were not.

The D3 Board has now acquired solid, physical evidence of motor tampering. It is none of your business to know what the Board has acquired and what has been modified to increase performance. The Board has tested the alleged items and has found a solid on-track performance advantage using such items. This tampering (because this is what it is) has been done and/or used by very few racers, who took full advantage of it in the past. So while it was never truly addressed in the past, it is being addressed now for the good of all the racers that DO play fair.

Members of the D3 Board have been able to verify that the construction of the motors used in our racing is performed with very tight tolerances for such low-cost motors, especially in their winding specification (I believe that anyone who verified this in the past, including IRRA officers, failed to find a single motor out of spec, correct me if wrong), magnets Gauss readings, armature timing and general outer and inner dimensions.

The criteria is, after someone will have placed a protest to the Race Director (and that someone can be a racer, a Board member or anyone from the raceway management), the Board will visually inspect the alleged motor, decide if the protest is warranted, and if so, the alleged modified motor will be stripped and compared in its specification to a sample of a stripped stock motor at hand.

A person protesting a motor will be asked to place a "bond" to the Board, of which amount has not been finalized yet (likely twice the retail value of an identical motor), that will be refunded if the alleged motor is deemed to have been tampered with. If the motor is deemed to be legal, the accused racer/owner will collect the amount of the bond so as to purchase a replacement motor plus as yet unspecified financial or other damages. if the motor is deemed to have been altered for performance improvement, the owner/racer/manufacturer of the car in which said motor was fitted will be excluded from the event, with more punishment to be decided by the Board after a full inquiry has been conducted.





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