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Checkpoint Cup racing procedures discussion


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#51 Zippity

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 06:40 PM

That was clear enough.

Thanks for spelling it out Philippe.




#52 Gus Kelley

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 06:52 PM

Hey Zip! We gonna see you there? Gus in Sacto
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#53 Zippity

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:19 PM

Could do.

#54 redbackspyder

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:44 PM

Now they will be racing for the food line on Saturday. Jesus, is the feed bag that important ? I thought it was a slot car race, not a handout line at the Midnight Mission !

Mill Conroy
 

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#55 Tim Neja

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:10 PM

I had a dead motor --so I took it apart the other night. I'll bring it to the races Mike--you can try to show me how they could change the timing in this thing!! The comm and the stacks are all linked together--don't see how you can turn one and not the other. And the brush's are held in the end bell in such a way that I don't think you can move them either. Check it out!! I think PDL --Bryan and the other's are doing all they can to make this a fair FUN RACE!! Let's leave the debate's alone--and go race and have a good time. I'm planning on seeing lot's of old friends--and doing the best I can--but If I"m not in the A--so what? I'll race with the guys in the main I qualified for--- it's a "handout" race--so you'll be slotted with the guys you should be with if you drive your best. Let's race our toy cars!
T
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#56 Gary Donahoe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:47 PM

Here is my idea for a Checkpoint Cup CanAM or F-1 race format, if something different is desired.
Let’s say there are 36 entries.
1-4 qualifiers to the A Main.
5-12 qualifiers to the B with top 2 finishers move up to the A.
13-20 qualifiers to the C (no traditional move up).
21-28 qualifiers to the D (no traditional move up).
29-36 qualifiers to the E (no traditional move up).
After the top 6 are set for the A, the top 2 lap totals from the B,C,D, or E move up to the A.

This format should take no longer to run than normal our normal format. 4 drivers will run 2 races, everybody else runs 1 race. Entrants need only 2 sets of tires prepared and there should be no problem for the handout motor to last 2 mains. If you had an excellent lap total and the stars lined up properly you could place 2nd in the E and still make the A.

Just a thought for consideration

#57 Mike K

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:15 AM

Amazingly simple Gary. I like it! From a great organizer......

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#58 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:43 AM

Here is my idea for a Checkpoint Cup CanAM or F-1 race format, if something different is desired.
Let’s say there are 36 entries.
1-4 qualifiers to the A Main.
5-12 qualifiers to the B with top 2 finishers move up to the A.
13-20 qualifiers to the C (no traditional move up).
21-28 qualifiers to the D (no traditional move up).
29-36 qualifiers to the E (no traditional move up).
After the top 6 are set for the A, the top 2 lap totals from the B,C,D, or E move up to the A.

This format should take no longer to run than normal our normal format. 4 drivers will run 2 races, everybody else runs 1 race. Entrants need only 2 sets of tires prepared and there should be no problem for the handout motor to last 2 mains. If you had an excellent lap total and the stars lined up properly you could place 2nd in the E and still make the A.

Just a thought for consideration



Gary,
I think the R4 in Columbus does something similar and it works great. Under consideration also is qualifying by Laps and Sections instead of one timed fastest lap. ALSO under consideration is perhaps putting a choice of racing formats in the hands of the racers and let them decide by means of a poll on Slotblog. I think a racer poll on some of this stuff that directly effects them is a good idea!

#59 Tim Neja

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:58 AM

I like Gary's format---it sounds a little different and FUN!! Don't think we should have a poll--only the racers that are coming to RACE should be in the poll--and we've already established--that's not the case here on the blog. But--I"m IN for what ever you guys decide.
Thanks
Tim
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#60 redbackspyder

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:22 AM

When is the next SCRRA Race ?

By the way , Tim, solder a pinion onto the motor shaft, lock the armature stack through the hole in the motor casing, and twist the shaft. The Comm is epoxied to the shaft, and will turn and advance the timing. Now this has been explained numerous times, and has been demonstrated. By crushing the cans, you can close up the gap. By bending the springs, you can get more pressure onto the comm. Now , what else would you like to know about what these bastards have been doing to tweak the motors ? ? ? Motors with advanced timing, and /or crushed cans have been shown to be advantageous.

Cheaters , feel free to chime in with anything I might have left out, say like shimming the magnets, grinding on the motor cans, opening them up and replacing the armatures, dewinding, take your pick.

A couple of BAD APPLES spoiled it at Buena Park. Now we need a rules manifesto just to check in at the Checkpoint Cup.

Mill Conroy
 

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#61 Tim Neja

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:30 AM

Mill-- you're constant complaining about D3 and band wagon tactics for SCRRA gets very old. I've been to both D3 and SCRRA races and racers have enjoyed racing with BOTH of the organizations. There's nothing more being done at SCRRA to stop any cheating going on. Constant complaining about the past is not going to help anyone. Cheating is a problem that cross's all types of competition. The organizers can only do so much to regulate--the rest must be done by the racers. Knowing how to cheat is not the same as cheating! It's banning the cheaters that must be done--and the new D3 committee has said openly they will do it and are trying to implement rules/regulations/procedures to help--many at the suggestion of the racers! I hope both organizations thrive and grow-- SCRRA is not some new nirvana-- the same problem's exist there as in any group competition. What racers have been banned by SCRRA to stop the "cheaters"? If you hate D3 so much--don't race at the Checkpoint--but stop trying to tear it down every time you hit the keyboard. Enjoy the holidays and I hope to see you at the Checkpoint next year!
T
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#62 TSR

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:54 AM

Mill,

Rules have not changed a bit.

Racing procedures can and have changed to accommodate the needs and what the majority of racers wants. What is wrong with that and in which way does it change car preparation, timing in the event or anything else?

What has the new D3 Board accomplished so far?

1) It has refined rules that needed precisions regarding car construction and motors. Not changes, only precisions so that the rules are clearer.
2) It has refined racing procedures so that the track preparation is the responsibility of the raceway and no longer of D3, that tech and races run on time, that there is a clear policy on pitting, car repair, tech inspection, and established a procedure to catch the (very few) bad apples attempting to cheat.

This has simplified the running of races, made it more fair for all racers by creating a true impound, refined its tech inspection procedures with a zero tolerance, and is making strides in making the racing as enjoyable as it should be. I do not understand your concern here, what would any of these proposals mean to you? Like the suggestion by Gary? What would be wrong with it? It would take no more time, just as laps and sections qualifying would take no more time and truly qualify racers according to their own ability rather than on a hare lap.

Now we are discussing qualifying procedures, and the discussion is healthy. What's wrong with that? :)

#63 John Gorski

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:23 PM

2012 Checkpoint Cup racing procedures
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#64 Ron Hershman

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:54 PM

I had a dead motor --so I took it apart the other night. I'll bring it to the races Mike--you can try to show me how they could change the timing in this thing!! The comm and the stacks are all linked together--don't see how you can turn one and not the other.


Oh Tim... let me show you how it's done... it's very simple...

Stock Falcon 7.

DSCN1679.JPG

Falcon taken apart

DSCN1680.JPG

Timing is just a shade over 15 degrees...

DSCN1681.JPG

With a simple twist... timing increased to 30 degrees.

DSCN1682.JPG

No broken wires...

DSCN1683.JPG

#65 Bernie

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:56 PM

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Bernie Schatz

#66 Ron Hershman

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:06 PM

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:


What you laughing at Bernie??? ;) LOL

#67 TSR

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:13 PM

(John Gorski) All this discussion should be moved to another thread its confusing to people coming to the race.


John,
This was to be done yesterday, and has been done now along with a clean up uf some of the un-necessary posts.

However let's point out once more that the D3 RULES have not changed.

Some PROCEDURES have been set or refined to speed up matters and avoid long delays during the race weekend.

#68 Mark Wampler

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:51 PM

Oh Tim... let me show you how it's done... it's very simple...




Ron, I think the viewing audience should be entitled to a complete course on motor "enhancements", but on another thread :victory:
You can quote me.

-Mark

#69 Bernie

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:07 PM

What you laughing at Bernie??? ;) LOL


It just cracks me up, that's all. Merry Christmas to all :D !
Bernie Schatz

#70 TSR

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:21 PM

Tim,
It is just as well that Ron shows you that it can be done, and leaving few marks at that. The few in D3 racing who have used these "enhancements" in the past, will be in for a bad surprise if they try again. For the benefit of the guys who are playing fair.

#71 usadar

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:24 PM

John,
This was to be done yesterday, and has been done now along with a clean up uf some of the un-necessary posts.

However let's point out once more that the D3 RULES have not changed.

Some PROCEDURES have been set or refined to speed up matters and avoid long delays during the race weekend.


I agree with John & Philippe,

We have been looking forward to and preparing for the Check Point Cup of 2012 on condition that the basic style of this historic event will not change drastically but with some refinements for the benefit of participating racers.

The D3 committee has done a very fine job.

Let us enjoy racing at the Cup!!

Happy Holidays, :D

Haruki
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#72 Mike K

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:49 PM

Love the tutorial!!! :clapping: :victory:

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#73 TSR

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:28 PM

Just wait until he shows you the tools... :laugh2:

#74 Zippity

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:40 PM

What Ark did the timing guage come out of?

Surely that has to be a collectors piece :)

#75 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:50 PM

The MEC timing gauges must be 20-25 years old, maybe older. They show up occasionally on ebay & always go for big bucks. :yes:

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#76 TSR

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:56 PM

Yeah, they have much better ones in metric degrees today... :)

#77 Tim Neja

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:11 PM

Thanks Ron--it just shows WHY---handout motors are the way to go!! Stops the mystery-- and helps keep those that would cheat--honest!! THANKS for the tutorial. No easy way to tech for it---so handouts and impounds will help. And the D3 guys are trying to implement any and all rules that have existed--it's not the rules that were previously in question--just the enforcement.
Thanks guys--looking forward to the race! Merry Christmas AND Happy New Year to ya!!
T
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#78 S.O. Watt

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:24 PM

Yeah, they have much better ones in metric degrees today... :)


I've got a European made Magnatron timing gauge, P. I'll have to check the metric conversion factor for it.

I also have the gizmowhackie that hooks to the wattits for checking arm stack diameter inside a can without taking the motor apart. :good:

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#79 TSR

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:27 PM

We have already hired a tiny elf with a degree from MIT for that. :laugh2:

#80 redbackspyder

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:42 AM

Tim , you were the one that said these motors were not able to be played with. I merely pointed out the ways that they could. Tim, I do not hate D3 , to the contrary , I have raced numerous more times than you and have done more to volunteer time to D3 than you. The SCRRA is of no use at the Checkpoint cup, I was making a point that you obviously missed. My points about cheating are valid, and maybe if you showed up to race more often , you would know what we are talking about. All of D3 is trying to weed out the cheaters with new procedures, which behind the scenes many have been working on.

D3 would have died had it not been for a few critical people stepping in to right the ship. Now it is back on course, and contrary to what you believe, I race every month with D3 AND SCRRA. I rarely see you at our races. You are welcome to your opinion , but if you showed up more often , you would be much more in the know. Stop honking about how great things are if you do not understand the real situation. We are all working to rid BPR of Cheating. Both organziations. Try offering to help, then you will see what all is going on, and then you will see that if I had not brought up the problems with Speed Rubber being run, Tweaked Motors coming from the Midwest, then there would be no new procedures. Thankfully the D3 board is acting upon suggestions of the racers that make up it's group. A great change from the past and I compliment them.

Apologies to the D3 board, I think the board is doing a much better job now. The board no longer runs from criticism, nor hides. They actually listen, and I commend D3 for this.

SCRRA was founded by racers, for racers. May not be nirvana, but it is a good group of guys.

Mill Conroy
 

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#81 idare2bdul

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 03:26 AM

If people were doing this timing advancement in the past how come no one has ever been torn down or protested, let alone banned? If they were talked to privately the question becomes, why not publicly with a teardown? What is the point of a rule if it isn't enforced consistently?

Since RC motor guys were retiming their armatures in the can in the 1980's is it just occurring to you that it could be done here too? What gear ratios were these supposed cheaters running? Since most guys on the King track are running between 2.8-1 and 3-1 the advanced motor will run hotter, endangering the life of the motor, especially if they are running under 3.1.

So where is the dividing line between a cheater and a legal motor that can be defined while the car is in tech?

One last thought, with no money on the line, the guys that might cheat to do better in a toy car race should really get a life.
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#82 TSR

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:41 AM

Mike,
We were counting on you to point the cheaters out so that they could be disciplined, but you kept pointing your finger at the wrong guys.

#83 redbackspyder

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:49 PM

Ron, thanks for the great pictures and explanations, having enlightened a few of the racers here now. This is why some here that either are or claim to be naive to what is going on, need to be educated. Thanks to the D3 and SCRRA boards for making the extra effort to ensure clean, fair racing throughout the New Year. Oscar, do I smell molten brass somewhere ? ? :dash2:

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#84 TSR

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 04:41 PM

PDL if this was an attempt at humor it was misplaced.


Actually Mike, you must be the only person in D3 who thinks so.

I must indeed have thick skin to tolerate this crap on my own forum, but hey, any and all opinions, even if slanted, are welcome. ^_^

#85 HarV Wallbanger III

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 05:06 PM

Ron's post shows why the welded cans are the way to go!

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#86 TSR

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 05:29 PM

Barn,
It can also be done without opening the motor. Actually it can be done on most any motor that does not have the comm tied to the armature stack with fiberglass thread and epoxy... :)

Again, what is rather sad in this is that very few are hurting the fun of all honest and fair racers, and this sucks.

#87 The Bugman

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 06:38 PM

well i gotta be honest,,,i really think the D3 BOARD guys, are doing a good job of curtailing all this BS about motor tampering and illegal tires,,
i admit im one to "RIDE D3's BUTT",,,,when im expressing my opinions,but i'll also give credit to them for stepping up to stop all this illegal crap too,
so to you PdL,Mr.s Warmack,Franco,Poyner,& the rest THX GUYS !

Lets have a great CPC,,enjoy the good company of racing buddies,,,,and make the best you can out of the WEEKEND.
REMEMBER ALL WE AINT GETTIN ANY YOUNGER,,ENJOY ALL THIS WHILE WE CAN,,,,

HAPPY HOLIDAYS & PEACE TO ALL :good: :victory:
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#88 Tim Neja

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 06:55 PM

ATTABOY Oscar!! Nice to hear your kind sentiments!! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to ALL the racers and their families!! May 2012 bring happiness and prosperity for all!!
T
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#89 Gator Bob

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 07:13 PM

Oscar... :good:

Why does it always turn out to be a freaking argument sideshow when these big West Coast events are announced?

The guys from Japan must think what is with them? :wacko2:

Have a Happy and safe holiday and a Healthy 2012 New Year to everyone. :D


Peace :victory:
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#90 The Bugman

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 07:15 PM

Ron, thanks for the great pictures and explanations, having enlightened a few of the racers here now. This is why some here that either are or claim to be naive to what is going on, need to be educated. Thanks to the D3 and SCRRA boards for making the extra effort to ensure clean, fair racing throughout the New Year. Oscar, do I smell molten brass somewhere ? ? :dash2:

:laugh2: :sarcastic_hand:
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#91 The Bugman

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 07:18 PM

Oscar... :good:

Why does it always turn out to be a freaking argument sideshow when these big West Coast events are announced?

The guys from Japan must think what is with them? :wacko2:

Have a Happy and safe holiday and a Healthy 2012 New Year to everyone. :D


Peace :victory:


cause we have VERY OPINIONATED folks out here,,
some who are more opinionated than racers tho,,, :diablo:
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#92 usadar

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:00 PM

Oscar... :good:

Why does it always turn out to be a freaking argument sideshow when these big West Coast events are announced?

The guys from Japan must think what is with them? :wacko2:

Have a Happy and safe holiday and a Healthy 2012 New Year to everyone. :D


Peace :victory:

cause we have VERY OPINIONATED folks out here,,
some who are more opinionated than racers tho,,, :diablo:


Hi Bob & Oscar,

Such "a freaking argument sideshow" makes me feel bad, but SoCal D3 BIG Events are so great for me to come all the way over the Pacific to enjoy great racing and company of great racers.

Thanks a lot for the D3 board for your great effort to organize the Check Point Cup.

I am looking forward to seeing/racing with D3 racers at BPR.

Happy Holidays and Good Racing, :bye:

Haruki
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Where do we go from here: chaos or community?

#93 Gator Bob

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:22 PM

Haruki,
You and your racers are not all caught up in the drama and politics leading up to the races. Once the racers show up at the track most of the complaining stops, things get quiet and the fun starts. Must be that calming sound of the happy little motors.

Just come and have big fun and I hope YOU win Can-Am with those great chassis you guys build.

Happy Holidays, Best of luck and have a safe trip.
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                            Bob Israelite

#94 redbackspyder

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:28 PM

Haruki, there will be no visible signs of the discussion at the race. People like to get on the blog and vent. As long as you stay out of the way of Molten Brass, you will be fine :heat: Oscar, my friend, pull the plug to that iron, Please !

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#95 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 12:42 AM

A few more words on the discussions about the motor situation and all the speculation concerning motor tampering. At no time whatsoever has any individual at BPR been found to be running an illegal motor and until recently most of the "parking lot motor" rumors were kind of a joke. However, many recent rumors and some HARD tangible evidence that motor tampering was possible without even opening the can has brought about the necessity for D3 to watch things a little closer. I think the fact that the organizers know basically what to look for in regards to many possible tampering methods and will be paying CLOSE attention should be enough of a deterrent to discourage any real "parking lot motors". :)

#96 idare2bdul

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 05:08 AM

Since you guys keep tap dancing around what you are talking about can we assume that you are talking about advancing the commutator? If as was mentioned in a post that timing was about 15 degrees at what point does an advanced commutator go from being a production line variation to tampering? I would assume that adding glue to the shaft to make sure the commutator doesn't spin would be a violation as well.

Using the Trinity Monster machine for testing purposes I've seen and shown others up to a twelve percent variation in RPM at 5 volts between stock motors given the same break in. This does not imply a direct relationship between timing and rpm but there is a correlation.

The bottom line for me is if it passes tech and is impounded from there, it's legal. So take the time to catch it there if at all possible so we can stop the quibbling.

Portions of this post were removed by the moderation
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#97 Ron Hershman

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 01:33 PM

Barn,
It can also be done without opening the motor. Actually it can be done on most any motor that does not have the comm tied to the armature stack with fiberglass thread and epoxy... :)


Comms tied and epoxied on the American made arms are very very difficult and almost impossible to advance the timing on them due to the epoxy made here in the states and the methods of working up and curing the epoxy here.

The arms being made in China with "varnish" and tie wrap are just as easy to advance as the ones that are not.

China does not have the proper epoxy..... it has to be purchased here and sent to Chinese MFG's and China is not too receptive to the methods of correct armature curing methods.

#98 TSR

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 03:38 PM

Ron,
Thanks for exposing the simple truth that people can cheat, but we have no concerns here, in a discussion regarding the Checkpoint Cup and D3 racing procedures in general, with anything else other than the motors we run, AKA Falcon 7 and TSR D3.
It is quite obvious that the arms run in the Retro Pro class are subject to a whole different kind of parameters, as I believe that anyone trying to alter the timing on those would end with a ruined armature...

However and as previously mentioned, while D3 and D3 racers were were concerned by the few ruining racing for all the others, intense scrutiny and the knowledge and physical evidence D3 has recently acquired about what to look for will almost certainly end that concern, so that all can enjoy their racing as fairly as can be achieved.

A few seconds of added inspection before and after racing may alleviate a lot of aggravation.

#99 John Gorski

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:11 AM

Mill Conroy?? Trying to PM Mill can't get threw?? Tech Help?
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#100 Bill from NH

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:06 PM

Maybe his PM box is full? You only get 500 messages. :)

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