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Need a Group 20 history lesson


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#1 Marty N

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:18 AM

Digging around on the web the other day and I ran across references to the windings of what we call the G20 motor. I found several old articles that stated different windings for this platform that noted, depending upon the author, the following specifications in its original form:

45/27
35-45/27
38/27

Any idea what the original winding was? Who and when it became a recognized "class"? Was is always .440" long X .510" OD? Did it start as a C-can wind? How did it crystallize as a class?

Any and all information welcome.
Martin Nissen
 
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#2 havlicek

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:17 AM

I thought the old C-can G20 was 40/27. Whatever it was, it was a fast and fun motor.

-john
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#3 Ron Hershman

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:01 AM

45/27 was the "original" wind and on .500" or so long blanks. .515" or so dia.

I have no idea when exactly they went to 38/27 but when I started racing in 1982 that's what a Gr 20 arm was wound and on a .450" stack length. .513" diameter.

In 1983 they were minimum .440" stack length. .513" dia.

.510" and .500" diameter Gr 20 arms came about in the early '90s and were for C-can drag racing.

All of these specs were for C-can Gr 20 arms/motors.

#4 Hworth08

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:13 AM

The 20 goes all the way back to the NCC days of late 1969.

There was the Group 12 and 20 and the G20 arm was the only legal arm for the Formula 1 class though any other motor parts were legal.

I don't know what the 20 wind was but it was a very smooth, easy to drive wind. I would guess about 60 of 29 which was the original modern G12 wind but the 20 had a longer stack.

The NCC G20 motors were the first "fast motors" that we EXPECTED to actually finish a race! :) The arm usually lasted until the comm wore out.
Don Hollingsworth

#5 jimht

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:27 AM

As I recall, the original NCC Gp 20 was machine wound 40 turns of 27 +/- 2.

Bill Steube introduced (and got legalized) a 38 turn hand-wound arm and that was the end of that.

The original progression was quite logical for the Group arms and RTR cars:

Gp 12 50 turns of 29, car cost $12.
Gp 15 45 turns of 28, car cost $15.
Gp 20 40 turns of 27, car cost $20.

Later, Mura mistakenly produced a batch of Gp 15 arms that were 50 turns of 29 and that was the end of that.

(An aside: the 28 gauge Champion arms were priceless for a while, then Champion ran out of the .006" blanks and started reselling Mura arms and that was the end of that.)

Even later, I came up with a class I called 20-7, which turned out to be a way to go slower than an Open for the same amount of money and that was the end of that.

Even later, later, I came up with a class that used a Gp 15 arm in a 27 setup with bushings, that devolved into Cobalt 12; that also turned out to be a way to go slower than an Open for the same amount of money and that was the end of that.

If I actually find documentation regarding my memories, I might post it... then again, I might not: what if it proves my memory to be fallible, instead?
:laugh2:

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#6 Ron Hershman

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:36 AM

Bill Steube introduced (and got legalized) a 38 turn hand-wound arm and that was the end of that.


Group 22 which later became Group 27. ;)
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#7 jimht

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:59 AM

Well... actually, Ron, the Gp22 class was formed the second? year after the introduction of the wildly successful Gp20 class, as were the other Group classes.

Thorp and others were miffed about not being on the Gp20 money bandwagon (that was originally restricted to a Mura motor in a Champion chassis) so they got Gp22 as a token extra class, not to be included in the original Gp20.

Everyone naturally ignored the artificial distinction and just ran them all together.

The hand-wound arms came later as the California USRA developed after the demise of the NCC.

:D

Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#8 Ron Hershman

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:16 PM

Yes. Jim, but IIRC... Group 22 was created for the "others", with a slightly different chassis and also allowed hand-wound Gr 20 arms (yes, I still have a Steube HW tagged 22 arm) and this was the reason these cars had to sell for 22 bucks or less.

The extra 2 bucks allowed for "hand winding". ;)

Hey Jim... while we are on the subject of "history"... there is a guy in the Slot Racing History forum here that would like to know the eight guys who were in the USRA Nats Pro main at your place in 1975.

Can you help him out??? :)
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#9 team burrito

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 01:10 PM

Bill Steube introduced (and got legalized) a 38 turn hand wound arm and that was the end of that.


I had one of these arms and it was quickly banned from my track. We used Group 20s in Group 7 frames and called it Group 27. At least, that's what I remember back in the NCC days.
:blush:
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#10 Zippity

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:21 PM

Group 20
38t/27, .440" stack length, .513" diameter.
- C-can setup used in wing cars and drag racing.

Group 27
38t/27, .440" stack length.
- Hand-wound, any diameter, used in cobalt strap setups.

Source.

#11 Marty N

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:00 PM

Thanks, guys. Now that's what I call a history lesson. Keep it coming. I'm on the edge of my seat here.
Martin Nissen
 
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#12 S.O. Watt

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:23 PM

Group 20
38t/27, .440" stack length, .513" diameter.
- C-can setup used in wing cars and drag racing.

Group 27
38t/27, .440" stack length.
- Hand-wound, any diameter, used in cobalt strap setups.

Source.


That's all the late info and specs concerning 20s. Not quite the same as when they were introduced in the '60s. Wish I still had my old NCC 20 car, it was the one Morrisey built up for the article back then.

I raced that car four times and it finished with a good record - one win, two seconds, and a fourth, plus three TQs, and I was given the Moniker "Grp 20 Ace". I believe the stacks were .500" long by .513" then and thick laminations (not remembering really well, another CRS moment). I set it up in a old Mabuchi can and it really made some HP after that. I also used the Lancer Porsche 908s and liked them on the 20 cars, not on opens.

The class was first proposed in 1968, finalized in '69. There was a Grp 20 exhibition race run in conjunction with the House of Hobbies USRA race on their red track in Oct or Nov (?) '69. Mike Morrisey gave me the car to help fill the field. Bob Bernhardt won that with me taking second. As far as I know or remember, that was the first race for the class.

The following January, 1970, the Car Model series in Los Angeles area ran a split program with the races alternating between Grp 20 one month and Open class the next. The Pros and Semi Pros were also combined for the Grp 20 class events. The first race was held at Santa Ana Raceways, a local track to me, and I was TQ and won. The next race for Grp 20s was held at the Dave Howard's home track, Bellflower Raceway. I somehow squeaked a TQ out and Dave and I had what was one of the most exciting races I ever ran (had to be tied with the two races Fred Hood and I split the wins on at the '70 Arco and NCC races held at Speed and Sport). We were nose to tail for 40 minutes with those cars! He won and I felt that he had raced probably his best as I thought mine was right up there, too.

The rest they say is history...

Edited: added some race history for the LA Grp 20s.

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#13 jimht

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:25 PM

Yes. Jim, but IIRC... Group 22 was created for the "others", with a slightly different chassis and also allowed hand-wound Gr 20 arms (yes, I still have a Steube HW tagged 22 arm) and this was the reason these cars had to sell for 22 bucks or less.
The extra 2 bucks allowed for "hand winding"


Well no, not exactly, Ron. The $2 difference had nothing to do with hand winding.
In fact, the original Gp 22 price was $24.95.

The Checkpoint arm was originally priced at $9.95. I believe, and didn't arrive until well after Gp 22 was formed.

Its price made it illegal when it was first sold, but when it was found to be faster it was immediately legalized, of course.

Here's an excerpt from MRJ, Vol 1, No 24, Mar 10, 1970.

hta.jpg
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Jim Honeycutt

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#14 John Streisguth

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:23 PM

I have two original NCC 20 arms from about 1971. Stack diameter is .515", stack length is .470".

I also have a Mura 20 arm from about 1990, measures .513" dia and .440" length.
"Whatever..."

#15 Hworth08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:28 AM

For comparision. I got a Wing car off eBay that was mixed in with several other cars. The car had a very pretty frame the way it was bent, piano wire Box Stock chassis. The motor was probably an early '90s setup but had a NCC 20 tagged arm.

I thought the frame was pretty so I cleaned the car up and freshened the motor as I was anxious to drive a NCC-20 arm again. I did a little tuning and got the car to running the King track wide open with full width tires (not much glue) with the Wing body.

I was pretty proud of this old three-legged horse until one of my buddies got out his modern Gp12 Wing car. His car had been at Mike Swiss's (maybe 2006) a couple months earlier for the Nationals race. Handling-wise he was just a little better but his car was SO much faster on the straight! He was probably 20 feet faster on the straight. He would come to a complete stop before the deadman so I could get caught up and we could race through the infield.

Sure is hard to beat technology!
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#16 Marty N

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:33 PM

The original progression was quite logical for the Group arms and RTR cars:

Gp 12 - 50 turns of 29, car cost $12.
Gp 15 - 45 turns of 28, car cost $15.
Gp 20 - 40 turns of 27, car cost $20.

Later, Mura mistakenly produced a batch of Gp 15 arms that were 50 turns of 29 and that was the end of that.

When then 15s were 45/28, was that on the .440" long stacks? (50/29 on the long stack just never made sence to me).

If so and the NCC 20s were .470" to .500" long seems there was a plan there where the wind got hotter and the stack got shorter?
Martin Nissen
 
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#17 idare2bdul

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:21 AM

There were some 36 turn Champion machine would arms that inadvertently went out the door when the machine was set wrong to wind them. The funny thing about that was that by this time these machine wound arms didn't sell well compared to the Muras and this went unnoticed till Champion briefly hired Big Jim Greenamyer who caught the mistake and perhaps amazingly had it stopped.
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#18 Marty N

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:55 PM

Guess I made the question too long.

When Group 15 was 45/28 what was the stack length?

Thanks.
Martin Nissen
 
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#19 Ron Hershman

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:00 PM

Around .500" length. Could be .480" to .510"... they tried to keep the stack lengths pretty close to .500" in the Group 15 and 20 arms back in the day and in the beginning.

#20 Marty N

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:54 PM

Thanks, Ron. :)
Martin Nissen
 
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#21 Dan Miller

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:29 PM

The hand wound 38T27 GP27 wind may well have been a byproduct of when Bob Green had a new Mura armature lamination die made. Bob and Bill Steube found out that 38 turns of 27 fit the blank well, thus dropping the last 2 turns going from 40 to 38.

This info came my way when Bob gave me a walk through tour of Mura back in 1979.

There was a time when very few armature blanks were available. Bob Green was generous and allowed some people access to the Mura blank. This led to some interesting competition between custom armature winders. We were all using the same blank. Granted, the Champion blank came and went, but the supply was only for a while and rather variable.

The first real surge of independant blanks, other than Thorpe, who kept to himself, began in the early 1980s.

Then the insanity of many different classes of racing became the norm.

... And all the factory cheating that goes with it.


#22 Marty N

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 04:08 PM

I just have to ask now that the ball is rolling. The only popular wind we missed in the thread is the 12 wind. What was the original stack length for this wind?
Martin Nissen
 
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#23 Chris Barnes

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 09:35 AM

In 1969, we were racing a group 20 class weekly in Atlanta at the "Bowling Alley" off Stewart Ave. We used the Champion pan chassis that had floppy pans. The track was an Engleman 220, I think. We had plenty of great racing on that track. Then one day it was gone, heard they cut it up. Probably part of the threat to bowling that was perceived by AMF.

#24 TSR

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 10:14 AM

Probably part of the threat to bowling that was perceived by AMF.


AMF owned NO raceways or tracks in the United States. So this bogus conspiracy is absolutely, truly baseless.
Urban legend spread by the same types who believe that Elvis is alive, ancient aliens have taken over the earth, and cars can run on water alone. :)

The only involvement of AMF in slot car racing is that in 1966, they purchased a license from American Model Car Racing Congress to manufacture and market tracks everywhere in the world EXCEPT the United States.

They fell on their face a year later as the London-based market ploy tanked with the rest of the hobby.

#25 Marty N

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 07:01 PM

I just have to ask now that the ball is rolling. The only popular wind we missed in the thread is the 12 wind. What was the original stack length for this wind?


I so don't get the last two post LOL
Martin Nissen
 
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#26 Ron Hershman

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 07:27 PM

I just have to ask now that the ball is rolling. The only popular wind we missed in the thread is the 12 wind. What was the original stack length for this wind?


55 turns of 29 ga. .400" or so stack length.


The only involvement of AMF in slot car racing is that in 1966, they purchased a license from American Model Car Racing Congress to manufacture and market tracks everywhere in the world EXCEPT the United States.


And Canada ;)

#27 jimht

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 07:46 PM

I don't recall any particular stack length being mandated on the original 12 & 15 Group arms. They were all long, as long as the Group 20 that they were introduced after (and unbalanced).

Later Mura introduced the Challenger and the Wasp and the Superwasp as upgrades for the stock 16D arms from Parma.

The short Group 12 may have been an additional effort by Mura to make the Group 12 faster and still stay sorta in the Group 12 guidelines. I believe it was called an "Outlaw 12" when it was first introduced and was the same length as the Superwasp.

The USRA and it's adoption (and further rules strangulation) of the limited classes designed for the Raceways came after the short arm had been around awhile.

Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#28 Ron Hershman

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 08:22 PM

I don't recall any particular stack length being mandated on the original 12 & 15 Group arms. They were all long, as long as the Group 20 that they were introduced after (and unbalanced).

Later Mura introduced the Challenger and the Wasp and the Superwasp as upgrades for the stock 16D arms from Parma.

The short Group 12 may have been an additional effort by Mura to make the Group 12 faster and still stay sorta in the Group 12 guidelines. I believe it was called an "Outlaw 12" when it was first introduced and was the same length as the Superwasp.



Just going by what Bob Green told me about the NCC 12 arms and nothing was mandated...... because they sold for less they shortened the length of the stack and that required less wire per arm.... in their big picture it saved them money and the arms were more easily identified by the different stack length of a NCC 12 and NCC 15 arm. No tags back them and neither was balanced. I have never seen a NCC 12 with a long stack....... all have been shorter than the NCC 15 blank that was also used on the NCC 20's.

When I started racing in 1981.... the 12 arms from Mura were 50 turns of 29 ga wire on a .375 to .400 blank and no tags or tie or balancing. They all had piano wire shafts. As did the Int 15 arms that were .460" or so in stack length.

In 1985 or there abouts...Mura came out with the "Outlaw" X-12 arm that was balanced, tied and tagged and with a .350" stack length and a drill blank shaft. A year or so later they discontinued the unbalanced, untagged 12 arms.

It was bout this same time Mura came out with the Challenger I balanced Challanger II balanced ( replacement 16-D arms ) and then the Super Wasp balanced and unbalanced arms..... all were made with piano wire shafts then. Were not tied, not tagged had green wire and the Super Wasp was balanced. The Super Wasp used the same blank length as the X-12 arms and at .350" stack length.

Over the next 10 years Mura changed the number of turns off Challenger and Super Wasp, tied and tagged them and changed from the green colored wire to copper colored wire.

Also in 84-86 the Mura Int 15 arms went to a .440" stack and drill blank shafts as the USRA changed their rules.

#29 jimht

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 09:06 PM

Memories vs. data... :) ...I'll buy that book.

What's funny about all this is that one can look back and see how haphazardly this stuff developed, and how writing any kind of rules was kind of a waste of time.

Either the manufacturers changed what they needed to make a buck or the racers got the rules changed to allow what they liked.

It just confirms my belief that all racing classes should be defined from the top down, and if it fits under the body, it's legal.
Some motor types should be separated from others, because of cost, just as some chassis types should be, but armatures should be allowed to "run free" in each motor class.

The Group 12 motor for example...would it not have made more sense in the long run to have just said a 29 gauge wire armature in a ceramic magnet C can, and not worried about turns or length or diameter.
The production costs would have been the same and the gauge restriction would have sufficed to keep control over expense.
And, just like Opens, there would be many choices for different track and power configurations.

Sure, you still buy a bunch of arms to get the right combinations, but they're all usable, instead of some being duds...

Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#30 Ron Hershman

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 10:40 PM

1. Memories vs. data... :) ...I'll buy that book.

2. What's funny about all this is that one can look back and see how haphazardly this stuff developed, and how writing any kind of rules was kind of a waste of time.

3.Either the manufacturers changed what they needed to make a buck or the racers got the rules changed to allow what they liked.

4. It just confirms my belief that all racing classes should be defined from the top down, and if it fits under the body, it's legal.
Some motor types should be separated from others, because of cost, just as some chassis types should be, but armatures should be allowed to "run free" in each motor class.

5. The Group 12 motor for example...would it not have made more sense in the long run to have just said a 29 gauge wire armature in a ceramic magnet C can, and not worried about turns or length or diameter.
The production costs would have been the same and the gauge restriction would have sufficed to keep control over expense.
And, just like Opens, there would be many choices for different track and power configurations.

6. Sure, you still buy a bunch of arms to get the right combinations, but they're all usable, instead of some being duds...


1. Better hurry before CRS sets in and no one remembers anything. ;)

2. Just think were we could be with no written rules. We would all be racing Gr 7 or maybe nothing at all as not many could afford racing with no rules.

How much stuff was made and sold when no rules applied for it? Think of Challenger and Super Wasp motors...was there ever a need for those? Wouldn't a Ceramic X-12 C-can motor have worked instead?

3. Kind of like International 15..... was that a East Coast thing or Texas thing when it got started?

4. Ever try that concept in your raceway Jim? If so how did it work out for you in the long run? Didn't you once support and promote the USRA circus for along time Jim? Did you ever "submit" your ideas of such for voting on by the USRA?

5. Sure no restrictions on number of turns.... I guess that works if I have a 45 Turn and you have a 55 turn....MFG's would just work harder to come out with less turns and make them reliable and win over their competition while giving the story of them all being the same and equal.... that didn't and doesn't work in Gr 7. ;) If it did...everyone would be running the same number and turns everywhere. Some MFG's have a tough enough time making enough 50 t 29 X-12 arms and add it different number turns...whew. The Distributors and raceway owners would love that I am sure. Sounds like unlimited C-Can racing and not many want to return to that.

6. Duds...... depends on what track you are on. Wrong wind on a given day...and you got a dud.

#31 stoo23

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 11:18 PM

Perhaps Slightly Off Topic,..but seeing as AMF and Slot Car tracks was mentioned,..In Australia, AMF are currently having New Slot car tracks installed in quite a number of it's Bowling Centres around the Country.

Peter Hopkins who used to own and run AREA3 at Tuggerah and has built a number of tracks, has been building and installing the tracks.
They are 8 Lane and although I haven't seen any of them myself, a few that have suggest that they Look Great (peter Does build quite a good track) and apparently are proving to be quite Popular with the Kids.

Guess what Goes around Comes around,..History Repeating itself,..lol

I'll speak with Peter and see if I can get some pics and put up a post.
Cheers,
Stewart
:)
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Stewart Amos

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#32 Marty N

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 08:41 AM

55 turns of 29 ga. .400" or so stack length.




And Canada ;)


Your a gold mine Ron. Thanks. I learn more about the history of this hobby every time you post.
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Martin Nissen
 
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#33 jimht

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 04:02 PM

Hi Ron,

I guess you shut me down, huh?

Not. :laugh2:

And no fair answering your own questions to make your point.

Regarding the questions you did ask and didn’t answer, I guess it’s not too much thread drift to continue discussing how the history of what we’ve done affects what we’re doing now, eh?

I didn’t mean no rules, I meant less rules on the “Gp12” armatures. Consider, most of humanity that’s ever been involved with slot cars on 8 lane commercial tracks has peaked at 29 gauge performance or at an even lower level. It’s actually quite difficult to run away from 29 gauge horsepower even on the tracks that have been reconfigured to make it so normal humans can play without destroying their cars, sorta (You know I mean the “new” Kings, right?).

The various motors/arms/classes like Challengers and Wasps that have been introduced through the years are reflection of the fact that slower is sometimes enough for most tracks and racers.
When International 15 was introduced it was slower and more expensive than Gp12 and Gp20. I thought it was dumb but I went with the flow, why not? The customers liked it.
And, yes I try my concepts in my Raceway, constantly, to keep things interesting. I’ve got an Open Group F wing car class going currently that allows the racers to stick whatever arms they like into the rebuildable F setups, cheap fun.

The USRA has studiously adopted much of what I and other long term Raceway owners have come up with, you’re welcome. Doesn’t mean I was trying to help the USRA or present them ideas that they should adopt. Even though I was involved in the formation of a national USRA by adopting the USRA rules into the Texas Series, I only had races for USRA stuff as long as it was worth my while. “Submitting” anything to the USRA as you asked? No, not worth the effort, especially for the last 15 years. Besides, the USRA has always claimed it only writes rules for the Nats, what do I care about the Nats…it doesn’t pay my bills. You talk to them; I’ve done my duty…

And so to the real issue: why not allow the Group 12 class to use any 29 gauge arm? It’s not a big secret that the easiest way to make an arm spin up quicker to a higher rpm is to make it shorter and use less turns. So what? Sometimes grunt and brakes are the answer.
Limits exist regardless. The fastest arm is not always the way to come up with a race winner…or have you never been beaten by a slower car?

Why not allow more leeway? Those who like to spend will continue to spend. Those on a budget will have an option that’s better than buying the same thing they weren’t satisfied with the first time.

Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#34 Ron Hershman

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 05:31 PM

Hi Ron,

1. I guess you shut me down, huh?



2. And no fair answering your own questions to make your point.

3. Regarding the questions you did ask and didn’t answer, I guess it’s not too much thread drift to continue discussing how the history of what we’ve done affects what we’re doing now, eh?

3. The various motors/arms/classes like Challengers and Wasps that have been introduced through the years are reflection of the fact that slower is sometimes enough for most tracks and racers.

4.When International 15 was introduced it was slower and more expensive than Gp12 and Gp20. I thought it was dumb but I went with the flow, why not? The customers liked it.

5.And, yes I try my concepts in my Raceway, constantly, to keep things interesting. I’ve got an Open Group F wing car class going currently that allows the racers to stick whatever arms they like into the rebuildable F setups, cheap fun.

6.And so to the real issue: why not allow the Group 12 class to use any 29 gauge arm? It’s not a big secret that the easiest way to make an arm spin up quicker to a higher rpm is to make it shorter and use less turns. So what? Sometimes grunt and brakes are the answer.
Limits exist regardless. The fastest arm is not always the way to come up with a race winner…or have you never been beaten by a slower car?

7. Why not allow more leeway? Those who like to spend will continue to spend. Those on a budget will have an option that’s better than buying the same thing they weren’t satisfied with the first time.


1. Nope.....wasn't trying to do that. :)

2. Sometimes one has to do that to make the point. Oh and never answer a question with a question ;)

3. Yep, but those will still faster than 16-D motors and classes. So it's OK to go a bit slower than a 29 ga wire class, yet still faster than a 16-D.

4. In our neck of the woods the Int 15's were always faster than the C-Can 12 motors/classes.

5. So in your Open Gr F class there is 4 American made arms that fit those set-ups P-S Puppy Dog, P-S Big Dog, P-S and Koford Gr 12 and P-S and Koford Gr 19 arms and some Cobalt 12 arms will fit in them.....what's the most popular arm/wire size used in your raceway? Do you allow the "hard" neo magnets too?

6. You can always order longer stack X-12 arms for your customers...do you do that? The minimum is .350" and you could order anything you want for your customers...are you doing that? You could always allow the Spec 15 arms made by P-S and Koford which are the same number of turns and wire size except on a .440" long blank. Yes agreed that some days more brakes and torque from a long stack is better than the alternative shorter stack. :) Been beat by a slower car...yep...usually when I crash out, break down or drive pretty badly. I have won more races with a slower car than my competitors, but that had everything to do with staying in the slot and making laps versus the others who had faster cars but crashed a lot or spent more time in the pits. It really had nothing to do with horsepower in those cases. ;)

7. Yep....it's your raceway and you can do as you want and sell what you want.... no one is stopping you from doing that. :)

#35 boogieman1

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 06:28 PM

I was there,Burned up my motor,Bought new GR 20 RTR off shelf,
made the main,Finshed 5th ,1970 Tristate race,GrandPrix Raceway,Dayton,OH---
Bob Kennedy Team Champion---How did you make this main? I said---the car is good,
I drove my butt off!!! BOOGIEMAN WAS 18,Long time ago.
Boogieman
Jerry "Boogieman" Wyant

#36 jimht

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 06:55 PM

An update for the historians:
 
Found a Group 40 in this memorial plastic bag storage receptacle for just about every variation of A, B and C Mura, Champion, Associated, whatever.

 
j.1.jpg
 
(Yes that's a Thorp 26-27 in the lower right corner of the bag, the comm diameter is .197", I hardly used it...  :D )
 
j.2.jpg
 
And this Group 40 is .512" diameter, .490" stack length Mura blank.


Jim Honeycutt

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#37 Samiam

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 11:37 PM

Jim,
 
Andy from AB Slot is looking for some two-hole Green cans.

Wanted: Two-hole Mura C-cans
Sam Levitch
 
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#38 Cheater

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 05:31 AM

Andy has about a dozen two-hole Mura cans en route from me.
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap






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