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O/S 473 Ti22R body

D3 Legal?

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#1 usadar

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:49 AM

IRRA™ has approved the new O/S 473 Ti22R body for Retro Can-Am.

Will D3 approve this body, too?

Ron,

This 473 is similar in dimension to Mac (short) or Kirby (long)?

OS 473 Ti22R.jpg

ti22.jpg

Haruki
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#2 Ron Hershman

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:01 AM

Haruki,

It is being submitted to D3 as we type. It is a "tad" shorter than the recently-approved Parma Lola Can-Am body.

#3 usadar

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:14 AM

Ron,

Thanks a lot for your prompt reply.

I asked the dimension of your 473 because the chassis built by Kamo I raced in the Checkpoint Cup works very well with Kirby Ti22.

But Kirby Ti22 is fragile around the nose.

O/S 473 looks stronger around nose/front section with fins over the front fenders. Is its nose as long as the Kirby Ti22?

Are they available through Eagle Distributing now?

Regards,

Haruki
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#4 Ron Hershman

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:40 AM

Yes the OS-473 should be at Eagle... unless they have sold out already.

#5 Gus Kelley

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:13 AM

Boy oh noy! That body has tons of air devices, giving it a potentially extreme advantage over many if not all of the other approved bodies.

Gus in Sacto
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#6 Tim Neja

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:19 AM

Looks very cool!!

T
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#7 SteveDee

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:40 AM

While it will probably work very well, I think it is ugly. Why not just add wings to the sides and get it over with?
Steven Dietrich

#8 flem1959

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:47 AM

That's the best looking Retro body I`ve ever seen!

Downforce is good. :clapping:
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#9 TSR

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:53 AM

Why not just add wings to the sides and get it over with?


This is one of the reasons why D3 limited its bodies to the 1969 racing season, and the car in this guise only appeared in 1970.

While the body could be approved by the D3 Board, it would be over my personal objections. Nothing personal but I believe that it is a perversion of what Retro racing is supposed to be about.

I am not so happy either about the way Parma molded the separate wing of their T163 as a continuation of the body instead of like on the full-size car, stepping it (and that would be stepping it up by over 1/4" in the 1/24 scale). The slippery slope I predicted is happening.

However I am but one person, others may think very differently. So go and hack at it.

#10 SteveDee

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:10 PM

While I do not always agree with PDL, in this case I do. Retro/D3 has almost become a single body spec series, and that based on a car that was unsuccessful in it's day. What is really a shame, is that there are many really great looking bodies out there that are simply not competitive as everyone has jumped on the higher downforce Ti 22 bandwagon, making the cars so stuck that driving them is getting easier and easier, sorta like junior wing cars instead of scale appearing. My testing has shown that the largest advantage of the Ti 22 is not so much overall down force but due to the tall flat sides acting as a "weather vane" allowing the car to get straighter quicker, hold a tighter line in the bank and donut. Maybe what is needed is an equalizer, such as less spoiler on Ti's to put in a little more driving and handling and take out downforce and some of the horsepower race. Just an opinion, though.
Steven Dietrich

#11 S.O. Watt

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:22 PM

I'll have to agree to disagree with you Steve. I believe that the IRRA racing groups have become mainly a single body user, not D3. But to clarify that statement, D3 hasn't due mainly to the founding racing group's track that is used mostly- BPR's King track. if you look at the BPR D3 race reports, not many TIs are run and winning on their King, witness Bryan's win with a Lola 160 at the CPC. Yes, the Tis are more successful on the flat track and on Bryan's car(s).

The small amount of testing of bodies I've done up here in slugg's ville has shown a small advantage to the multiple versions of the TI that are available, some better than others. And we are concerned about the same thing- a one body racing group, so concerned that we have tossed the idea about of restricting/banning TIs. I use as a base line the MAC Lola 160/Ferrazi 312.and apply the thinking that another body either improves or detracts from the car's baseline handling. I have found many bods that do not detract from my baseline. Will I run a 22? Of course, if others are running one and I feel my car needs one to be competitive, as I do like to be competitive.

I am in agreement with PDL on the year of this latest version released of the TI, a 1970 version only (until proven wrong).

I've always have wondered why 1969 was chosen for the date cut off, not that it really matters to me.

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#12 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:47 PM

I'll have to agree to disagree with you Steve. I believe that the IRRA racing groups have become mainly a single body user, not D3. But to clarify that statement, D3 hasn't due mainly to the founding racing group's track that is used mostly- BPR's King track. if you look at the BPR D3 race reports, not many TIs are run and winning on their King, witness Bryan's win with a Lola 160 at the CPC. Yes, the Tis are more successful on the flat track and on Bryan's car(s).

The small amount of testing of bodies I've done up here in slugg's ville has shown a small advantage to the multiple versions of the TI that are available, some better than others. And we are concerned about the same thing- a one body racing group, so concerned that we have tossed the idea about of restricting/banning TIs. I use as a base line the MAC Lola 160/Ferrazi 312.and apply the thinking that another body either improves or detracts from the car's baseline handling. I have found many bods that do not detract from my baseline. Will I run a 22? Of course, if others are running one and I feel my car needs one to be competitive, as I do like to be competitive.

I am in agreement with PDL on the year of this latest version released of the TI, a 1970 version only (until proven wrong).

I've always have wondered why 1969 was chosen for the date cut off, not that it really matters to me.


There you go...

Problem solved... LOL Ban all Ti-22 bodies from IRRA and D3 racing.

Only Ferrari, Lola, Porsche etc. bodies permitted.

Anyone care to wager that after the next body 'enhancement' we will be back to a 'one body' class again... LOL

One of my Penn-Ohio Series racers suggested that we pick one body, and make it the designated 'spec' body for the series... I think the ISRA World Championship does that for the Eurosport class to eliminate 'body wars'?... Folks are getting frustrated having bodies obsoleted in the middle of a season, after spending money and time to prep them.

Perhaps a rule that no 'new' bodies will be permitted or approved after an arbitrary Sept. 1 date? Go ahead and make them, but you just can't use them until the following Sept.

Same thing should hold true for 'new' chassis plates, and anything else that gives the 'perception' of being a better mouse trap.

Motors are frozen, why not other components?

LM

#13 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:56 PM

Raceways need to stay open, selling parts is a good way to to keep them open.

Thank you Ron for giving me a reason to spend money at my track.



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#14 RomanK

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:58 PM

Hmmmm, restrictions on submitted parts? maybe the USRA ain't so dumb after all LOL

FYI, the JK TI-22 is the body of choice on the gerding King at the TRACK.

This latest OS TI-22 looks very promising.

Roman Kormeluk


#15 RomanK

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:25 PM

My aplogies, I just realized I was posting in the D3 section. Please delete if not appropriate.

Roman Kormeluk


#16 idare2bdul

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:27 PM

IRRA legal bodies are welcome on the third Satuirday of the month on the flat track for the CanAm class.
Foamy was working on his Hanada chassis this last Saturday and one will be on the way for me.
The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
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#17 SteveDee

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:31 PM

OK, I apologize for lumping D3 in with the IRRA, they are more different than I first thought, and, living in the east I only know of D3 what I read here. I wish people would stop twisting what is said here to justify their own positions, I merely wish that there would be a greater varity of bodies that would be competitive that the on model races that I see here, it's kind of boring the way it is now.
Steven Dietrich

#18 Ron Hershman

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:32 PM

IRRA legal bodies are welcome on the third Satuirday of the month on the flat track for the CanAm class.
Foamy was working on his Hanada chassis this last Saturday and one will be on the way for me.


They also are at the SCRRA races at BP on the 2nd Sat of every month and that may be expanded soon from what I have heard of late ;)

#19 Sax555

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:44 PM

I agree with Steve!!Lets just put wings on them and get it over with...REMIND YOU OF THE EARLY 80's
Robert Saxvik

#20 usadar

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:24 PM

This is one of the reasons why D3 limited its bodies to the 1969 racing season, and the car in this guise only appeared in 1970.

While the body could be approved by the D3 Board, it would be over my personal objections. Nothing personal but I believe that it is a perversion of what Retro racing is supposed to be about.

I am not so happy either about the way Parma molded the separate wing of their T163 as a continuation of the body instead of like on the full-size car, stepping it (and that would be stepping it up by over 1/4" in the 1/24 scale). The slippery slope I predicted is happening.

However I am but one person, others may think very differently. So go and hack at it.

1970 ti22.jpg
The above photo is about Lagna Seca/1970 from "Can-Am Racing 1970-1974 by Brooklands Books."

Philippe-san,

You are right. The Ti 22 did not have vertical fins on its front fenders until the beginning of 1970 Can-Am season.
I had made a mistake to believe it was 1969.
I respect the present body rule of D3 limiting its legal bodies of Retro Can-Am & F-1 before and in 1969.
So my original question is meaningless.
D3 should stick to its original vision/rule.
As with the case of True Scale's BRM, bodies in the 70's may be raced but it should be as local options.
Tokyo D3 might allow our racers race OS 473 but I will not race the body in D3's event like the Western States.

At Tokyo D3, as you see in Keith's great race reports, our racers enjoy using/winning on the King track with a variety of Can-Am bodies, not with Ti's only.
It is all depending on characteristics of driving/ chassis construction that would decide the racers' choice of Can-Am bodies.

Good racing,

Haruki
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#21 Lucky Me

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:27 PM

There you go...

Problem solved... LOL Ban all Ti-22 bodies from IRRA and D3 racing.

Only Ferrari, Lola, Porsche etc. bodies permitted.

Anyone care to wager that after the next body 'enhancement' we will be back to a 'one body' class again... LOL

One of my Penn-Ohio Series racers suggested that we pick one body, and make it the designated 'spec' body for the series... I think the ISRA World Championship does that for the Eurosport class to eliminate 'body wars'?... Folks are getting frustrated having bodies obsoleted in the middle of a season, after spending money and time to prep them.

Perhaps a rule that no 'new' bodies will be permitted or approved after an arbitrary Sept. 1 date? Go ahead and make them, but you just can't use them until the following Sept.

Same thing should hold true for 'new' chassis plates, and anything else that gives the 'perception' of being a better mouse trap.

Motors are frozen, why not other components?

LM


LOL ! Getting frustrated because the body"s become obsoleted halfway through the season !

How about having a body obsoleted beyond use halfway through 1 race or let's be generous and say 1 "complete" race.

Man, If I could get a body to last a half a season in ANY class I would be in disbelief, of course you have to race obviously.

Good One Larry . :laugh2:
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#22 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:43 PM

Try bulletproofing your bodies with the materials available. For the lost .02 or so each lap, I have bodies that are 2 years old with 6 plus races on them that look and race as new.Maybe you should also vary your driving so that you are not piling into "the big one" LOL!!
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#23 TSR

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:28 PM

Philippe-san,

You are right. The Ti 22 did not have vertical fins on its front fenders until the beginning of 1970 Can-Am season.
I had made a mistake to believe it was 1969.
I respect the present body rule of D3 limiting its legal bodies of Retro Can-Am & F-1 before and in 1969.


Haruki,
No problem at all. The original 1969 date was devised mostly because some of us wanted to avoid the slippery slope of "new and improved" bodies that is, as I predicted then, now happening, one body at a time. Some think it is great, I personally do not and object to it, but I am only a small voice in the general noise nowadays. So, whatever.

For the 1969 Kirby Ti22 model that we use on the flat track at BPR with the longer nose, I have devised a reinforcement that I also use on my Retro Pro bodies now and I use the same trick we used in the old days, a piece of 10-thou Mylar (that's much stronger than Lexan) that is bent at 90-degree on each side, then stapled and taped under the body. It has worked real well for me and the bodies last and last, almost to a point where they are almost bullet proof.
If the body supplier used good quality Lexan and the body is pulled evenly, it should have nearly all of its 10-thou thickness all over.
As far as the Ti22 bodies on the King track, I think that they slow us down too much and I vastly prefer the Lola T160 or that old Champion Ferrari vintage body that I have been using in the past two races, with not much of a rear spoiler, because it is so much faster in a straight line and allows me to lower the gear ratio by one tooth at the crown with no ill effects. Hence when the car gets to the chute after the banking, it is substantially faster. The measured difference in lap time between the two types of bodies with the same ratio is nearly 1/10" of a second per lap, then another 1/10" with the smaller crown.
When the down force between the two bodies (Ti22 and Lola) is measured on a scale with airflow from an air gun, there is a nearly10-gram difference, and 10 grams are a lot when the overall drag is considered.
I have never tried the Kirby 1972 BRM yet but I am pretty sure that its down force is lower than that of the Kirby Ti22.
Now, you are in Japan, we are in California, so please don't let little me stop you from running whatever you like!

#24 usadar

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:43 PM

Hello Philippe,

Mostly on our King track, I use Lola T-160(Mac) for Can-Am.
As you mentioned in your thread, it is much faster on straight and it handles very neutral on corners.
Recently i have tried Kirby Ti22 with lighter chassis.
This combination, to me, has brought better handling on the donuts.
Owing to more down-force, however, Kirby Ti 22 is apt to become slower toward the end of race even with a smaller rear spoiler.

Anyway, it is very fun & interesting to compare various different bodies.

Keep racing,

Haruki
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#25 TSR

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:51 PM

Yes indeed, and everything is a fine balance between low drag and cornering speed... :) Hence, once the chassis is set, the position of the body (front to rear tilt, forward of back mounting...) becomes as critical as the proper tire choice depending on track conditions... and this is when one pulls his hair out! :laugh2:





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