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Revival races of the Gp7 anglewinders of early '70s?


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#26 Phil Hackett

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:53 PM

I know someone who has never thrown away any of his stuff from the 70s and 80s. He probably has 40-50 c-can based open motors (because he has a bunch of my stuff when I quit), dozens of piano-wire chassis, including RevTech Iso's and major assorted other stuff from those days. He wouldn't have to "build" anything since it's already built..... just some simple clean-up and assembly.

Somewhere in the vast Sonic manufacturing plant there's a box of all kinds of lexan bodies from those times.

It may be a time for a come-back!
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#27 TSR

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:31 PM

Phil,
the gentleman is talking "early 1970's". Revtech is from the LATE 1970's to early 1980's, a totally different era and technology... :)

Philippe de Lespinay


#28 Gator Bob

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:57 PM

Revival races of the Gp7 anglewinders of early '70s?


You mean like a build-up, proxy, or a show and tell?
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#29 Mark Johnson

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 06:00 PM

thats the stuff I'm interested in

#30 Flash24

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:27 PM

Walt LaBree Hi-Pro

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#31 Gil Aubin

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:44 PM

Also knick-named Walt DeBris. :)
aka Casinoslotcars

#32 Steve Deiters

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:20 PM

Walt LaBree Hi-Pro


Is that Eddie Sohl in the background?

#33 tonyp

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:08 PM

Yes

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#34 brucefl

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:06 AM

Do you mean cars like this:



This is built to the UK Retro Tottenham rules for cars up to the end of 1973.

We will compete in three Retro events this year. The car is in need of a rebuild before the events, it simply a standard Group 20 in a C-can with white dot magnets.

yes sir re bob now ive gotta convince the old timers to join in here and we ve gotta compete england vs usa lets do it.
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#35 cosmicnode

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:31 PM

That sounds good Bruce, we are even getting new shells made on this side of the pond,
We had a great race last weekend at Rockingham,
The winning car was very similar to a Bob Emmot chassis from the Tottenham race that he competed in, I actually held that winning chassis of Bob's in my hand, that was the one and only Tottenham race I was able to compete in. The winning car was driven by James Cleave, He's a ex world champion. It was a really hard race on a completely flat track

_DSC2232_042_DSC2232.JPG

_DSC2306_002_DSC2306.JPG

The car on the right is the winning car with the2nd place on the left, I built both these cars and loaned them to James and Gavin Wills. The winning car has a drag g20 arm with Koford ceramic mags, the other has a old (30years+) arm with Champion white dots. Both cars 3 7/8" WB with 7/8" guide lead, gearing was 6-38 on this tight track. Rules can be found here. http://www.raceway81.com/page38.html
_DSC2281_005_DSC2281.JPG

_DSC2280_004_DSC2280.JPG
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#36 TSR

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

Other than for minor details, these are excellent replicas of 1970-1971 pro-racing cars, complete with Emott design, Faas gears... but the elephant ears on the motors came in late 1972 and the aluminum guide nuts in the 1980s... :)
Great looking cars!
This is what Mike Steube had in mind when he voiced the concept of "nostalgia" racing in 2006.
I would not mind competing if the regs were made clear to limit the technology to true vintage or exacting replicas of vintage parts.

Philippe de Lespinay


#37 endbelldrive

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:04 PM

It would be nice if somebody out there would make reproductions of the drop arms and bat pans. Those 2 rail cars were relatively easy to build and tune. :)

Bob Suzuki


#38 cosmicnode

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

Other than for minor details, these are excellent replicas of 1970-1971 pro-racing cars, complete with Emott design, Faas gears... but the elephant ears on the motors came in late 1972 and the aluminum guide nuts in the 1980s... :)
Great looking cars!
This is what Mike Steube had in mind when he voiced the concept of "nostalgia" racing in 2006.
I would not mind competing if the regs were made clear to limit the technology to true vintage or exacting replicas of vintage parts.

The motors must be a C can without cut outs around the endbell, the arm must have a min dia of 0.500" and have a min stack length of 0.500". magnets must be ceramic and 0.500" long. modern endbells and hardware may be used due to the difficulty of obtaining replacement old style endbells. Chassis must be based on designs of those raced up to the end of 1972, a single straight front axle must be fitted which must revolv in the axle tube although the front wheels may rotate independently, These are some of the rules which are intended retain authenticity to the years these cars raced .
Mike
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#39 TSR

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:15 PM

Sounds perfect to me. Tire sizes?

Philippe de Lespinay


#40 cosmicnode

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:21 AM

I think it may be better to show a copy of the rules,

A. General Specifications.

  • Maximum Overall Car Width: 3 ¼” (82.55mm) with the body fitted ready to race.

  • Maximum Chassis Width: No maximum is specified but no part of the chassis, including wheels and tyres, can be visible outside the body when viewed from above.

  • Wheelbase: No maximum or minimum is specified (but see rule A15 & D1A).

The majority of chassis from this period and the majority of bodies used would have been close to 4.00” (101.60mm).


  • Rear Wheels and Tyres:
A. Maximum Rear Tyre Width: 0.810” (20.57mm).

B. Minimum Rear Tyre Diameter: ¾” (19.05mm).

C. Rear Wheels can be made from any material and be of any diameter.

D. Rear Tyre Material: Free choice but must not be made from, contain or be coated with silicone.

E. Speed rubber is prohibited.


  • Front Wheels and Tyres

A. Minimum Front Tyre Width: 3/16” (4.76mm).

B. Minimum Front Tyre Diameter: 5/8” (15.88mm) - Note: ¾” is preferred.
C. One piece front wheels/tyres are permitted.
D. Front Wheels can be made from any material and be of any diameter.

E. Front Tyres must be made from rubber or plastic and coloured black.

F. Tyres made from, containing, or coated with, silicone, urethane or other similar compounds must not be used.

G. Tyres may be coated with cyanoacrylate adhesive (“Super Glue”) or nail polish.


  • Minimum Chassis Clearance:
Measured with the car sitting on its tyres on a flat tech block.
A. Rear: 0.0625” (1.59mm). Measured under the rear axle.

B. The drive gear may be below the rear minimum but must, at all times, remain clear of the track surface.

C. Front: 0.047” (1.2mm). Measured under the most forward part of the chassis.

D. No intermediate part shall be lower than the front limit.

E. All four tyres must touch and roll on a level track surface at all times.


  • Axles (Front & Rear):
A. No minimum diameter is specified.
Most axles in this period would have been 1/8” (3.18mm) or 3/32” (2.36mm).
Front axles were sometimes made from 16swg (1.6mm) piano wire.
B. Solid steel axles only.
C. Hollow axles are not permitted.

D1. Inline chassis do not have to have straight or one piece front axles but they must be fixed rigidly to the chassis. Sprung ‘L’ arms are not permitted.

D2. Sidewinder and Anglewinder Chassis must have a single, straight, full length, front axle, which is free to rotate, on which both front wheels must be mounted.

E. Front Wheels may rotate independently.

F. Front axles may have side play but at no time can the wheels or tyres extend out past the body.

G. Axles must not protrude beyond the outside face of any wheel or tyre.


  • Bushings and Bearings: Free choice.

  • Drive Type: Free choice.

  • Drive Gears: Free choice, but period items such as Taylormade, Cox, Cobra etc are preferred.

  • Minimum Weight: Ready to race.
A. Inline Chassis: 100 grams.
B. Sidewinder and Anglewinder Chassis: 120 grams.

  • Body Height:
Measured with the car sitting on its tyres on a flat tech block.

A. Maximum: Must not exceed 1 ½” (38.1mm) including any add on air control devices.

B. Minimum: The top of the front wheel arches must not be less than 25/32” (20mm) measured across the front of the car above the centre line of the front wheels.


  • Guide Lead: No maximum is specified but the body must completely cover the guide flag when viewed from above unless the front of the body is less than 1¼” (31.75mm) in front of the front axle centreline. In which case no part of the guide flag may be more than 1¼” (31.75mm) in front of the front axle centreline.

  • All chassis parts, including the guide flag (except as above), wheels, tyres and all other running gear, must be covered by the unmodified body, without any add on aero devices, when viewed from above.

  • All wheels must be located centrally in relation to the wheel arches in the body.

B. Chassis.

  • Chassis Type;
A. Any chassis either hand built or commercially available in 1972 or earlier. Provided there is reasonable evidence to support the date claim.

B. Any more recently hand built, or partly hand built, chassis in the style of a 1972 or earlier chassis.

Provided there is reasonable evidence to support the design used.

  • Slot Guide:
A. Only one slot guide is permitted per car.
B. The guide must be a commercially available type but can be from any period.

  • Exclusions applying to all chassis.

A. ‘Flexiboard’ designs (i.e. Chassis with a longitudinal centre line hinge) and any other later than 1972 design features are not permitted.

B. Spring Steel Sheet may not be used, except as a guide tongue, unless it can be shown that the chassis was actually made in 1972 or earlier.

C. Track Skids are not permitted.
Note: For examples of period chassis designs look in the pages of period magazines.
There are many race reports from events at Tottenham and Nordic in particular and there were several chassis builders who described their chassis construction methods.
Another place to look is scratchbuilt.com where there are many examples of well known, mainly American, period chassis designs.

C. Motor.

  • Period Motors:

Any complete motor, or motor assembled from parts, intended for slot racing and manufactured and sold in 1972 or earlier may be used.


  • C’ Cans Motors:

A. Any Mura or Champion ‘C’ can of the type without lightening cut outs around the end bell mounting may be used. Two hole type cans are the preferred option.

The can must be 0.030” (0.76mm) minimum thickness material and of standard length with no lightening.

B. Magnets must be a one piece type with a minimum length of 0.500” (12.7mm).

C. Armatures for these motors must have a minimum diameter of 0.500” (12.7mm), a maximum diameter of 0.530” (13.5mm) and a minimum stack length of 0.440” (11.18mm). Windings and comm’ timing is free.


  • 16D/Super 16D Motors:

A. Any Parma, Slot Works or similar full can may be used.

The can must be 0.025” (0.63mm) minimum thickness material and of standard length with no lightening.

B. Magnets must be a one piece type with a minimum length of 0.670” (17.0mm).

C. Armatures for these motors must have a minimum diameter of 0.525” (13.34mm), a maximum diameter of 0.565” (14.35mm) and a minimum stack length of 0.500” (12.7mm). Windings and comm’ timing is free.


  • End bells:

A. In the interests of reliability modern end bells of plastic based material may be used in any motor. Period style items are preferred.

B. Metal end bells may only be used if they can be shown to have been made in 1972 or earlier.


  • Hardware:

A. Any type of bearings, brushes, brush hoods, brush springs, spring posts and screws may be used in any motor. Period style items are preferred.

B. Elephant ears for cooling are permitted.

D. Body.

  • Body Type.

A. Any vac’ formed (Lexan, PETG etc) 1/24th scale replica of a real, two seat, Sports Racing or GT car built and raced before the end of 1972 can be used.

B. Bodies must be realistic and reasonably to scale. Flattened or aerodynamically improved bodies are not permitted.


Important Note: We do not wish to get into approved body lists but if competitors push the boundaries too far this is what we will have to do.



  • Body Finishing.

A. To remain within the spirit of this class of racing the lower edge of the body should be cut close to the marked cut line on commercially available body shells.

B. Front wheel arches need not be cut out, but if not, must then be left transparent so that the full front wheel and tyre is visible.

C. Rear wheel arches must be cut out so that the full rear wheel and tyre is visible unless the real car had closed rear wheel arches.

D. The body must be fully painted and detailed, including all engine and mechanical detail where shown on the body shell. Authentic real car liveries or paint schemes ‘in the style of the period’ are preferred.

E. Openings, such as air vents and intakes, must be cut out or painted to look realistic.

F. The body must display at least two sets of racing numbers.

G. The body must have transparent windows and windscreens in all locations as on the real car.

H. Open top cars must have the cockpit opening fully cut out along the upper edge of the windscreen and cockpit sides.

I. The body must have a realistic three dimensional interior which includes a correctly positioned and painted driver figure consisting of at least a helmet, shoulders, arms, hands and the upper part of a steering wheel.

J. The body must be securely mounted to the chassis. Tape alone is not permitted except as a temporary repair during a race.

K. The body must cover the tread of all tyres when viewed from above.

L. The chassis, motor and all other running gear must not be visible through the cockpit opening, cabin area or engine bay.


  • Add on Spoilers and Air Control Devices.

A. All add on air control devices must be in a clear plastic material.

B. Rear Spoiler.

a. One rear spoiler only.

b. Must not lengthen the car by more than 1/8” (3.18mm).

c. Must not be taller than ½” (12.7mm) above the local height of the body shell.

d. Must not increase the overall height of the car above 1 ½” (38.1mm) from the track surface.

e. Must not extend beyond the widest part of the moulded body shell.
C. Rear Side Dams.

a. Must not extend further forward than 1” (25.4mm) from the centre line of the rear axle.

b. Must not exceed the height of the rear spoiler.
c. Must taper uniformly so that they are level with the body at their forward end.
D. Diaplane – Front Splitter.
a. One front diaplane only.
b. Must not lengthen the car by more than ½” (12.7mm).
c. Must not extend beyond the widest part of the moulded body shell.
E. Front Trim Tabs.
Either

a. One trim tab measuring no more than ½” (12.7mm) high by 1” (25.4mm) wide may be mounted on the centre line of the body, in front of the windscreen.

Or

b. Two trim tabs measuring no more than ½” (12.7mm) high by ½” (12.7mm) wide may be mounted on the front wheel arches (fenders).



Enjoy Mike.


Mike Kettleson

#41 brucefl

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:53 AM

so Mike and philippe lets get going usa vs uk ive got all the period stuff,but its gotta be on blue king track,hey maybe if enough of us plead with Bob maybe he get involved we could name it the Bob emott tottenham international invitational ,Will Phil Enot please chime in.(MAJOR RULE CHANGE NEEDED AS IN 1970 YOU COULD (AS LONG AS ALL OTHER RULES FOLLOWED FROM ERA)RUN ANY WIND AND YOU CAN BUILD YOURSELF OR PRO BUILT).
Bruce Schwartz

#42 macman

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:02 AM

You should run at least one race with these cars on Honeycutt's track... Still running after all these years!
Ben Kernan
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#43 macman

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:09 AM

Is this what we are talking about???
Fronts will need changing, but...?

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  • early '70s?.jpg

Ben Kernan
Formerly of SARN

Yes, I am a sarcastic, smart-azz, know-it-all old bastard of a genius. 
What is old is new again... Retro... Gotta love it !!!
"May all your inlines be Retro, my son."
The Englelman: a truly superior design.
 

#44 cosmicnode

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:53 AM

I understand Tony P is building a car.

Car of dreams, if you build it they will race it.!

I have to make my own drop arms and side pans , why not get someone to laser cut them and add a steel guide tongue. easier than getting replacement tool dies made - and cheaper.
Mike Kettleson

#45 TSR

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

Is this what we are talking about???
Fronts will need changing, but...?


No... :)

This is what we are talking about:

pdl-ws-72-30 (2).jpg

Real front axle, real drop arm actually dropping, no "fixed" drop arm, they came later than the era we are interested in.

Hinged side pans, no solid pans.

No heat sinks on the motor, they did not exist yet!

Philippe de Lespinay


#46 cosmicnode

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:03 PM

No... :)

This is what we are talking about:

pdl-ws-72-30 (2).jpg

Real front axle, real drop arm actually dropping, no "fixed" drop arm, they came later than the era we are interested in.

Hinged side pans, no solid pans.

No heat sinks on the motor, they did not exist yet!

You would need to change front wheels to wider ones , but looking good, "jobs a good un"
Mike Kettleson

#47 TSR

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:44 PM

Yes, old Associated, RVM or others... that would be a minimum of 1/4" wide. What diameter would you think for rear and front tires? We used to run 3/4" fronts, 13/16" rears.

Philippe de Lespinay


#48 macman

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:43 PM

Is this what we are talking about???
Fronts will need changing, but...?

What exactly is unacceptable with this??? Iso-Plumber?

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  • early 70's 2.jpg

Ben Kernan
Formerly of SARN

Yes, I am a sarcastic, smart-azz, know-it-all old bastard of a genius. 
What is old is new again... Retro... Gotta love it !!!
"May all your inlines be Retro, my son."
The Englelman: a truly superior design.
 

#49 macman

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

what about this??? too new P?
lots of work to fiddle with magnets to get something to work can drive in this one!?! Possibly just get Sir John of H. [NJ] to wind a new arm... 26/26 anyone??

Attached Images

  • older '70's 2.jpg

Ben Kernan
Formerly of SARN

Yes, I am a sarcastic, smart-azz, know-it-all old bastard of a genius. 
What is old is new again... Retro... Gotta love it !!!
"May all your inlines be Retro, my son."
The Englelman: a truly superior design.
 

#50 TSR

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:03 PM

ISO chassis would be, I believe, unacceptable, at least to me if the intent of Bruce Schwartz is to recreate the nostalgia of the early 1970s (1970-1971) era.

If you want a good series that does not degenerate in what the "retro Can Am" mongrel formula (but successful mongrel at that) is today, to protect your true vintage series, the basic rules should be:

-Steel-wire and/or brass-rod main rails OR, period production one-piece stamped-steel center section. No hand-cut steel center rails allowed.
-Brass NOS side pans and drop arm (steel allowed if period, NOS parts).
-Drop arm must be hinged at its back but may be spring loaded.
-Main rails must solidly connect front to rear axle (no ISO)
-Front axle must run inside a tube.
-NOS Jet-Flag guides only. Nut and guide clips allowed.
-Motor must be based on NOS Mura or Champion C-can, with ceramic magnets, plastic endbell, modern hardware allowed, armature of a minimum size of .5" X .5". Endbell aluminum heat sinks must be flat and cannot protrude beyond the endbell itself (no "elephant ears" regardless of how small).
-Gears must be NOS Cox or Faas.
-Tires sizes: 13/16" X .800" wide rears, 3/4" X 1/4" wide fronts. Color not specified.
-Bodies must be NOS or EXACTING replicas of models available to the public before January 1st, 1972. Total body height with added aero enhancements must not exceed 1.5".

Then you might have something... :)

what about this??? too new P?


Actually, perfect for someone who does not wish to build his own chassis, as these Japanese AYK chassis, originally distributed by Riggen and Mura, are still readily available from various retailers. It was issued in 1970 and has all the stuff listed above. However it is RHD, meaning that you need an endbell-side driven motor, which is of 1968-1969 technology.

Philippe de Lespinay






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