Jump to content




Photo

1961 Cadillac "Fleetwood Sixty Special" tin toy


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:41 PM

Got this from eBay, a big, heavy tinplate toy by SSS of Tokyo, Japan. It is pretty big at 16", and it is HEAVY. Pretty substantial thick steel body with separate fins, not too many chrome details other than the mandatory grille, rear bumper and windshield and rear window surrounds. The unusual features are an opening hood and trunk, the hood covering a tinplate attempt to an engine, with a red plastic fan and air filter.

The toy is quite impressive, while not rare. I already had a black one, and I have seen some in olive green with a yellow roof, a strange color combination. This pale yellow color is most attractive. Came with the box, with a sticker that says $3.25. Those were the days...

sss_cadillac_1.jpg

sss_cadillac_3.JPG

sss_cadillac_4.JPG

sss_cadillac_5.JPG

sss_cadillac_6.JPG

The seller said that he was 60 years old and that the toy was given to him as a present when he was nine, but he never played with it because he thought it was beautiful and did not want to damage it.

sss_cadillac_7.JPG

Compared to a 1/43 scale model of the same car (that one a really rare toy by Taiseiya, also a Japanese company) , it is pretty big!

sss_cadillac_8.JPG

The tin bottom has hardly any scratches, so the seller might be telling the truth and indeed, never played with it!

sss_cadillac_13.JPG

sss_cadillac_14.JPG

sss_cadillac_15.JPG

sss_cadillac_16.JPG

sss_cadillac_17.JPG

The box is in pretty nice shape but one end has some damage.

sss_cadillac_18.JPG

sss_cadillac_19.JPG

What do you think? :)

Philippe de Lespinay





#2 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,675 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:42 PM

Loverly...

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#3 MG Brown

MG Brown

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,891 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Cumberland Plateau

Posted 31 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

A classic.
That's thirty minutes away. I'll be there in ten.
 
 

 


#4 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,391 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 31 May 2012 - 08:09 PM

Stunning ! The interior detail grabs me. Is the fan connected to the friction motor? :D
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#5 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 31 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

Yes, but for some reason this one does not work. It does on my black example.

Question is, why did not American toy companies make toys like this instead of the utilitarian stuff like Tonka trucks, that frankly do nothing for me and never did when I was a kid?

Philippe de Lespinay


#6 MG Brown

MG Brown

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,891 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Cumberland Plateau

Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:23 PM

AMT and company made quite a few plastic friction and promotional models, not to mention a ton of annual model kits.

That was back when people built things.
That's thirty minutes away. I'll be there in ten.
 
 

 


#7 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,391 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:39 PM

Sorry to say, we used our Tonka dump trucks, bulldozers and cranes to destroy tin toys.
We could even ride on the Tonka off road dump trucks ... lol
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#8 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:45 PM

Yes, and the Japanese had big Cadillacs that you could also ride on. But should not American companies have made tin toys of American cars? The market WAS there and the Japanese took it all.

In the case of Indy cars, it is even worse: virtually no American companies made ANY. Why not?

All these below are Japanese:

Posted Image

Philippe de Lespinay


#9 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,391 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:50 PM

Of course they (we) should have made cars from the home land.

I don't know why, maybe we could not compete on price.
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#10 Michael Rigsby

Michael Rigsby

    SRT Motorsports

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,914 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a Southern state

Posted 01 June 2012 - 05:13 AM

Tonka is pretty much an AMERICAN tradition, going down from father to son. I had a set of Tonkas when I was a kid. My son got his set when he was old enough, and he has already told me when he does have kids, his son will have them, too. You can't tear them up, whereas a cheap friction toy like that would have been trashed in a week and ended up in the garbage.

"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain


#11 Larry Mattingly

Larry Mattingly

    Posting Leader

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,461 posts
  • Joined: 12-September 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Johnstown, PA

Posted 01 June 2012 - 07:40 AM

Big pressed steel trucks have ALWAYS been a favorite with American toy collectors...

Buddy L, Keystone, Big Boy, etc., from the pre-war years, and Smith-Miller, Doepke in the post-war era.

I always found it interesting that the Tonka and Structo stuff wasn't popular when I first started collecting, but increased in value when the S-M and Doepke trucks priced themselves out of reach of the average collector.

LM

#12 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 01 June 2012 - 10:25 AM

Of course they (we) should have made cars from the home land.
I don't know why, maybe we could not compete on price.


It costs no more to produce a model of a car, than it costs to produce a model of a truck.

I always found it interesting that the Tonka and Structo stuff wasn't popular when I first started collecting, but increased in value when the S-M and Doepke trucks priced themselves out of reach of the average collector.


The Smith-Miller became very popular from the early 1980s because they were reproduced in the original tooling, and the "Fifties" nostalgia cars produced in Japan, then China from the 1980s were a nice match to their size.
There is nothing wrong with the Tonka toys except for the usual American way of producing toys that are rather crude in their form (while generally very strong in construction) compared to the Japanese toys. It is in my opinion a disrespect for children, as engineers assume that children want something that crude. When running the styling department at Cox in the mid 1970s, I fought tooth and nail against that.
Toys today may be made of plastic, but most RESPECT the form of what they copy.

Big pressed steel trucks have ALWAYS been a favorite with American toy collectors...


Larry, for a long time, those were the ONLY automotive toys a child could get access to. Hence it becomes a favorite by default...
When the Tootsietoys Graham sedans, coupes, convertibles etc. were issued in 1933, they became the most successful toys in American toy history, selling by the millions.

You can't tear them up, whereas a cheap friction toy like that would have been trashed in a week and ended up in the garbage.


Not correct. Both would end in the same condition in the hands of a child, both minus a few cosmetic details. They are built exactly the same way with the same sheet steel (one has to know that Japan then got ALL their sheet steel from... the United States) in the same thickness. Assembly was done the same way. So the argument is simply not valid. The only difference today is that the best Japanese toys are worth on the market, multiple times the value of the best that Tonka or Structo or Smith-Miller or any other American company ever produced after WW2. The cosmetic aspect has a LOT to do with it. I know it matters a lot to me.

Philippe de Lespinay


#13 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,844 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:07 AM

Could it be that American companies were only concerned with what the market would bear and sell at the time? I don't think anyone made things with the anticipation the boomers would make them worth their weight in gold today from the '5's. They were producing toys for kids to play with and the company would make a profit.

Everything comes and goes; the boomers are fading fast and the next generation will start paying big bucks for Hot Wheels cars when they hit 55 and walk over a Tootise Toy.

It is what it is, enjoy it, if that is your thing, while you can...

Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...


#14 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:43 AM

Actually, it this was the case, the Tootsietoys prices would have collapsed. Instead, the good examples go now for record prices, and the kids who played with them are now dead of old age unless they live past 100. It means that NEW, younger collectors are picking them up, and largely because they are so visually attractive.

Art Deco is now recognized as a true, long-lasting style, and period Tootsietoy models are part of that style.
In a way it it the same with the Japanese toys of American cars of the 1950s and early 1960s: no one in the future is going to collect a toy representing a Nissan Altima or even a Ferrari 458GT, but there will be plenty collecting period toys or models of a 1957 Ford Vickie.

It is simply that collectors collect style besides the nostalgic and now irreplaceable charm of old toys. This also explains the renewed popularity of the Tonka toys, now collected by younger generations that were not even born when these things served as toys for their dads.

It also explains why slot racing wing-cars have virtually no collectible future: they are simply too ugly for collectors to be interested.

Philippe de Lespinay


#15 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,391 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:46 AM

As a kid the the Tonka's ruled the play lot. Looking back we were friggin brutal on our little lot toys. Tonka trucks were steel and the others were tin. Some wanted to be site builders because that kind of construction was going on right near by, and some wanted to be racers but that was the kids that got the car magazines or popular mechanics.

Jeez, we were like 3 - 8 years old. Plus - We didn't like the Jap's or the Jerry's (If I can still say that)
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#16 Larry Mattingly

Larry Mattingly

    Posting Leader

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,461 posts
  • Joined: 12-September 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Johnstown, PA

Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:51 AM

Smith-Miller and Doepke toys sold for a lot more money versus the Japanese tin stuff in the '50s...

For many years American's considered the Japanese toys to be 'junk'...

And, there may have been a bit of prejudice involved too, as many 'never' forgot Pearl Harbor.

P does have a point... I think the Doepke MG was one of their top sellers?

LM

#17 MG Brown

MG Brown

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,891 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Cumberland Plateau

Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:09 PM

If it was easy to predict what the next big thing would be in any collectable market - we'd all be rich as Bernie Ecclestone.
That's thirty minutes away. I'll be there in ten.
 
 

 


#18 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:23 PM

The Doepke MG and Jaguar XK as well as their trucks, were made of die-cast aluminum and while being a bit simplistic in details, are nice toys. I am not sure that they sold in that large of numbers but you find the jaguar and MG more often than the trucks, so indeed they must have been the best sellers, and they both are sports cars, kind of proving my point that cars WOULD have been more popular than trucks IF made available.

Larry is correct in pointing out that the American toys were more expensive, they were in most cases. There was of course a resentment against both German and Japanese toys, largely justified by the actions of the governments of these two countries. Personally, I am never making the population of a given country, responsible for the sins of their masters, especially in the circumstances in which power was held in Japan, or how it was seized in Germany or Russia. So I have no resentment for the toy makers, I am simply trying to collect the best of the affordable for me.

The Japanese produced an astounding number of toys, MOST cheap disposable items encompassing a vast category of subjects. Only a small percentage of these toys (as in toy of cars, aircraft and ships really) are great toys, and those are the ones I have been collecting for many years. Most of these toys, such as the big Cadilllac opening this thread, have never been seen by 99% of American grown men today who would have been of the age to play with such toys. They were rare then, they are rarer today. Why is that? Because of the way they were marketed.
The Japanese companies always built hand made prototypes of their toys, generally made of... painted plastic materials. They then went to the American trade shows, the New York and Chicago toy fairs, showed the models and took orders from the large department stores. Only the exact numbers of toys generated by these orders were produced, and the larger the toys, the smaller the numbers because of higher costs. Hence, while Tonka would produce up to a million of a given toy, some of the Japanese best cars were only produced in a few thousands, making them very difficult to find today. I own a single such prototype, that of a robot later produced by Yonezawa under the Cragstan brand. Cragstan was a New York distributorship led by Craig Stanton.

After the end of the conflict in Japan, the American forces literally ran the country for a few years, with general MacArthur at the helm. One of the priorities was to establish the manufacturing of goods to export so as to earn the greatly needed foreign currency as the Yen had collapsed.
Toys were an easy sell to export, so the US Army put several Japanese companies in business, that were already making toys before WW2. Because the steel industry had been bombed to extinction, the US Army imported sheet steel from the USA and distributed it to those toy companies, to get them started. The US taxpayer paid for it!
In the 1950s, as the Japanese steel industry recouped, toys were not a priority for domestic steel, so the toy companies kept buying the stuff from the USA until the early 1970s.

Tonka trucks were steel and the others were tin.


Again, this is an erroneous statement. Steel is steel especially when it comes from the same mills, and its strength only depends on its thickness. In the case of Tonka trucks, most are the same thickness as the large Japanese toy cars and trucks. Most people have only seen the cheap, small Japanese toys, very few have been exposed to the great and now rare Japanese toys, because the best were expensive, so produced in smaller numbers.

Philippe de Lespinay


#19 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,391 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:05 PM

Dokk, gauge or composition was not what we were thinking. In suburbia we played in the parent alloted area of dirt. The friction motors quit in the first 10 minutes the fins on the caddy would have been gone by day three. We didn't collect them, we wrecked them.

I am not saying the tins were not better looking just not as durable.

Many of our parents were in WWII, I can not or will not blame them for their prejudice. They probably knew that their tax dollars were being used to "stimulate" the Japanese economy after loosing family and friends.

Please- Don't confuse . . me telling you how it was in my litte world with . . . I don't like your collection or these cars.
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#20 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:17 PM

Well, they were toy CARS. Don't play in the dirt with them, that's for toys of Caterpillars and dump trucks! :D

Philippe de Lespinay


#21 Dr. Gamma

Dr. Gamma

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,407 posts
  • Joined: 19-October 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Verde Valley, AZ

Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:20 PM

I am happy to have just one of my childhood pressed steel trucks left.

My Grandfather made me a miniature wrecking ball for it back when I was a child. I smashed many a thinner toy trucks with it. When I started to put big dents in our new aluminum screen door, my Mother took the wrecking ball away from me!!!! I think every kid in the late 50's had one of these!!

100_6308.jpg

Robert Kickenapp, AKA RRB (Road Race Bob or when I fell down, I became Road Rash Bob)

 

"Honest, I swear its stock"  My answer to tech officials at post race teardown many a time.

 

That bike wouldn't do 150mph if you dropped it down a mineshaft!!!


#22 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:24 PM

Ny-Lint made lots of these and yours stood the test of time and... you! :laugh2:

Philippe de Lespinay


#23 Dr. Gamma

Dr. Gamma

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,407 posts
  • Joined: 19-October 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Verde Valley, AZ

Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:43 PM

Ny-Lint made lots of these and yours stood the test of time and... you! :laugh2:


Besides high blood pressure, high cholesterol, severe arthritis in most of my joints, and having macular degeneration in one eye. And being the only one in my family that has not had open heart surgery, or just died of a heart attack.

Besides all that I am going pretty good!!!!

Robert Kickenapp, AKA RRB (Road Race Bob or when I fell down, I became Road Rash Bob)

 

"Honest, I swear its stock"  My answer to tech officials at post race teardown many a time.

 

That bike wouldn't do 150mph if you dropped it down a mineshaft!!!


#24 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,299 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marxifornia

Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:17 PM

I think that you qualify for being a regular slot car racer. :)

Philippe de Lespinay






Electric Dreams Online Shop