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Mura "A", "B", and "C" story


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#1 TSR

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 11:39 AM

Posted at SlotForum to respond to a question there, and very relevant here:

In 1967, Tradeship/French Motor Company (in North California) had a new tool made of a new can of the same size as a Mabuchi FT16 with oval vent holes. These cans were nickel plated and were made from a folded flat sheet, not drawn like the Mabuchi or Champion cans. They offered it to George Mura but he declined. So they sold these cans to Cobra, Dyna-Rewind, and Certus amongst other companies, who used Tradeship endbells to make complete motors. So George got a bit iffy and went back to French and asked to have them produce the can for Mura but to modify the hole pattern so that there would be two round holes instead of one large oval. There was born the Mura "D" sized can, later nicknamed "A" after the "B" came out.

Mura had no magnets, so they purchased at first some Versitec SS101 mags and fitted them in a large, all-enclosing shim called "Can-in-a-Can". Then George went to work and had a new mold made for an all-new endbell, that was molded in black phenolic material, with the Mura name engraved on its nose (not to be confused with the Tradeship endbell used by Certus and others that has no name on its nose). These endbells used copies of Mabuchi hardware with flat brush-holder retainers and machined brush holders, but using copper as the material.

Once that was done, Mura issued the new motors with their own new armatures using new thinner laminations than what was available then except for the contemporary Champion 517. The motors were dark metallic green with black endbells and were available in four winding configurations. They signed up John Cukras and issued special versions of the motor with great two-tone faded paint in various colors, black/gold, silver/yellow, etc.
Bob Lenz also had his own version of this motor first in dark metallic blue then orange.

But all these motors did not have comm threads to hold the wires and they popped the wires that were simply soldered at the comm. So most fried while racing.
So George had a second generation of motors with new magnets made in the same molds but with better material and white (well, kind of cream color) endbells and new pent-roof copper brush holders. The Cukras line now came in solid colors: pink, white, and metallic purple. Eventually they figured out a comm welder similar to that of Dyna-Rewind, the true pioneer in such advances.

Later and after it was made obsolete, the D-size ("A") can motors received thinner shimless magnets and a FT26-size armature and were used for Group-12 racing and Dynamic and Riggen RTR cars. These were dark metallic blue with the white endbell. Cobra and Phaze III had their own versions in metallic maroon/purple. Dynamic also had a one-hole version of this motor in dark metallic green, this version being especially rare today.

Mura also sold the one-hole can to Nutley (dark maroon), Dave Bloom (silver or dark green), and Dart (orange) among others, as well as selling it themselves.

ALL, EVERY version of the above used the Mabuchi FT16D-size brushes. Don't let ANYONE tell you otherwise, it would be only tall BS. The first pros using such brushes did so only in mid-1969.

About that time, someone (I can't remember the name but I have it in my files) offered George a new lower can tooling that could take the Versitec magnets without a shim. George and Ron Mura first turned it down but then bought into it in late 1968. They made a new mold for the endbell and introduced a new brush-holder system using a copper plate and a "square" retaining plate for the still 16D-size brushes. This was the new "B" motor, with two smaller holes on the can. It was an absolute disaster, the motors running too hot and blowing on a regular basis. The Muras did everything they could to fix the problem: milled cans, vented cans, larger rectangular vent holes... but by mid-1969 they were in agony with this motor.

They also sold these motors and parts to Certus, Nutley, Bloom, Dart... none ever worked properly. The Brit pros heartily adopted it and used the things for over a year, but eventually reverted to more conventional motors after they found little advantage with the lower unit.

In the meantime, a fellow by the name of Bob Green had been making really good motors by cutting down Mura D-size ("A") cans on a jig fixture, fitting Champion Arco mags in them without shim, and machining down Mura end bells to fit. He was selling those motors to specialized raceways mostly in Louisiana and they were HOT. A new amateur racer by the name of Lee Gilbert, formerly running for Team Certus, was working with Bob and getting results. So George heard of it and hired Bob to design whole new can for Mura, patterned after the hand-built motor. A few months later, the "C" can was born. Champion quickly made their own version at about the same time, first as a folded can, then a thinner drawn version that was no good for anything.

But George had no magnets, so he sold only the can at first, then the can and a machined-down D-size endbell, then a complete kit with armature but no mags under the name "MPP" (Modified Production Products) with the names "Mura-Green-Gilbert" on the tags. But he could not make complete motors. So he approached Champion to buy some Arco magnets, but the GM there, an apparently disreputable fellow by the name of Ed Lewis, told him to go "screw himself", quote/unquote.

So Bob Green approached Bob Haines at REH and bought thousands of Arco "Blue Dots" magnets at wholesale prices, then had the dots sanded off. The mags were then assembled in complete motors by the likes of Arnie Atkins and Bob Green, now under full employment. Eventually, Champion sold the mags directly to Mura after Bob Rule had enough of Ed Lewis along with everyone else.

Eventually, all the remaining "A" and "B" motors and parts were liquidated in smart marketing ploys to the dwindling market, and the "C" can motors utterly dominated the market from 1971 to the 1990s, with Champion "C" motors used only sporadically by a few (but excellent) rewinders mostly on the East Coast (Joel Montague and his Pooch/Camen enterprise being by far the best).

This along with lots of color pictures is a whole chapter of the new book under construction.


So there! smile.gif
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#2 Edo

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 12:54 PM

Cute effort, Dokk, but where are the pictures?
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#3 TSR

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 02:23 PM

In the book! :lol:

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#4 Ron Hershman

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 04:23 PM

A little more to the story per Mr. Green after conversing with him on the phone today...

The first C-can motors built by Bob used the Allan Bradley-produced (for Champion) Yellow Dot mags. Mura then purchased magnets from Stackpole/Indiana General and the "production" Mura C-can motors were built using these magnets, called "Black Dots" by Mura. The samples Stackpole provided were very, very good and much better than the Champion mags, but during the first production run the die/magnet mold broke and Stackpole decided to ship machined magnets instead.

These magnets did not work very well, as they were machined versus molded. The molded magnets were radially oriented and the machined magnets were not. You can easily tell the "black dot" mags by looking at the ends of them and seeing the cut/grind marks on the ends.

Bob Haines of REH wanted "good" motors with "good" magnets, so he sent his overstock Blue Dot magnets to Mura for use in the motors REH wanted.

When Bob Rule found about this, he was very upset that the Mura/REH motors were selling for $2 more per motor. He then called Bob Green to find out why... After that conversation, Champion then sold White Dot mags to Mura for their production motors.

This led to the downfall of Champion motors as the Mura motors were better, faster, and more readily available. Champion could never produce and ship motors as quickly as Mura could.

#5 Prof. Fate

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 10:05 AM

Hi,

I had a couple of Bob's "Green cans" through a friend of a friend and used them for my "frankenmotors" until C-cans actually came out.

About 15 years ago, I actually finally got to talk to Bob personally, and was very excited. His early "Green" and "Vulcan" stuff was SO good. Until I bought his Vulcans, I had handmade every arm I ran, from the shaft and plates up. The workmanship was so very good, that despite the hideous price of $12.95, they were worth it.

But when I aquired the can, I had to, of course, make my own cut-down endbells and such.

Fun times, bench time is the best time.

All through that period, I never just bought a motor, it was always working around what I saw as the best options in the parts. Thus, I didn't get trapped by the "milled" magnets or anything. Mostly, I preferred to fit Champion magnets to the current can unless I saw something that tested better.

Of course, I had six raceways within a half hour drive, and weekend races averaged 40 racers.

Fate
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#6 stevefzr

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 12:06 AM

I need help identifying some Mura "A" can motors please.

... There was born the Mura "D" sized can, later nicknamed "A" after the "B" came out... had... an all-new endbell, that was molded in black phenolic material... The motors were dark metallic green with black end bells and were available in four winding configurations.

So, is this a Mura "D"? It has an unbalanced arm and no magnet shim.

Posted Image

They signed up John Cukras and issued special versions of the motor with... a second generation of motors with... white (well, kind of cream color) endbells and new pent-roof copper brush holders. The Cukras line now came in solid colors, pink, white and metallic purple...

Is this a Cukras? It doesn't have a sticker on the side. I've got an identical motor except it has a flower power sticker.

Posted Image

Later and after it was made obsolete, the D-size ("A") can motors received thinner shimless magnets and a FT26-size armature and were used for Group-12 racing and Dynamic and Riggen RTR cars. These were dark metallic blue with the white endbell.

We used to call these the "mini brute" All the ones I remember were black. They were the cheapest Mura you could buy at the time. The can was a little shorter than the "D" as well. Sorry about the crappy picture.

Posted Image

Cobra and Phaze III had their own versions in metallic maroon/purple.
Dynamic also had a one-hole version of this motor in dark metallic green, this version being especially rare today.
Mura also sold the one-hole can to Nutley (dark maroon), Dave Bloom (silver or dark green), and Dart (orange) among others, as well as selling it themselves.


So, can you identify these please?

Grey one-hole can, white endbell, internal shim. Dave Bloom?
Posted Image

Purple one-hole, no internal shim, black endbell. Dynamic?
Posted Image

Grey wto-hole, no internal shim. Mura "D"?
Posted Image

Maroon two-hole, no internal shim. Another Mura "D"?
Posted Image

Black two-hole with internal shim and white endbell:
Posted Image

Chrome or nickel-plated two-hole, bulletproofed style endbell, no shim.
Posted Image

Metallic blue two-hole with shim:
Posted Image

Red two-hole can with shim and red endbell:

Posted Image

Thanks,

Stephen Corneille


#7 Prof. Fate

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 12:09 PM

Hi,

Thanks for the photos.

While I talk about "frankenmotors" that we were building in the day, there are a lot of things I NEVER saw.

And the "one-holes" are an example.

I know this bores P and Scott, who have it all. But it is fun to see this stuff.

I only saw the my first "mini-brute" a few years ago.

Fate
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#8 TSR

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 01:04 PM

Steve, it is very simple and complex all at the same time.

All the motors you show have the D-size can manufactured by an outside supplier for Mura.

The first you show is a Group-12 made in 1969 from left-over M400 cans and a 26D-size arm.

The second is an M400 but not a Cukras as the stickers are virtually impossible to remove without messing the paint.

The third showing the nasty disintagrating-foam corrosion damage as so many do is a "Short Magnum", a shortened version of the D-size can made for 1/32 scale racing in 1969.

Fourth is a single-hole version produced for various companies, from Mura (silver) to Dynamic (dark metallic greenish blue), Phaze III (dark metallic red), and Nutley (dark red). Note the shim with a single hole specially-produced for these versions.

Fifth is a purple version of this for Mura's own use. However the endbell does not match this motor and has a Champion plate on its top.

Sixth is a M400 1968 production motor, a color used for "lesser" motors at lower cost.

Seventh is a D-size M400 produced for Phaze III and Cobra for their RTR cars.

Eighth is another of the many colors used on the M400 stock motor.

Ninth is yet another variation with plated can, just another stock motor with nothing special. That one was one of the last production "A" motors with the upgraded hardware.

Tenth is yet another color, also used on the Group-12.

To figure out which is what, you need to know that the original D-sized can (the "A" can) came at the same time as special versions with John Cukras blessing.

The first issue made in early 1968 was the M400, and features a metallic dark green can, the "can in a can" magnet shim (the second set of holes withing the vent holes shows the presence of the shim) and black endbell with copper copies of the heat sink retainers and machined brass heat sinks. There was a choice of three or four winds for the arm, of which the wire was soldered to the comm but not tied. The magnets were made in the Versitec SS101 magnet mold but used Alnico material.

Posted Image

Picture of the "semi can", also called "can in a can":

Posted Image

The M444 "Cukras" models also received the same endbell, two-tone paint schemes (very rare today) in various colors, painted by Ron Mura himself in shades of black/gold fogging, silver/yellow fogging, and others.

Posted Image

Posted Image

After most of these motors joyously blew up as they got hot, because the solder joints on the comm melted and the wires threw themselves to the mercy of the can, Mura actually listened to what John Cukras and Pete Zimmerman had to say and modified the motors in a second series featuring a new white endbell made of phenolic material, pent-roof copper brush-holder retainers, and armatures tied around the commutator. The new generation M400 were generally silver, but later had several other colors, the last versions having cut-outs for clearance on anglewinder chassis.

The last versions abandoned the pent-roof brush-holder design copied from Champion and adopted a new square copper brush holder set over a flat copper plate.

Posted Image

Meanwhile, the "Cukras" changed endbell too, got the tied arms, changed color to pink, then white, then purple for the last issues. A motor kit was also produced.

Posted Image

Note: the M444C "Cukras" ALWAYS had both stickers, the Mura on one side and the flower on the other. Any pink can without the stickers is just another can, as Mura used that color on both "A" and "B" cans in 1969.

Posted Image

Posted Image

One last version was produced for Group 12 use, with thinner magnets fitting without a shim and a larger 26D size armature. The stack on these is made of thick laminations, probably originating from leftover inventories of 26D stacks at Tradeship.

Does this make it a bit clearer for you?
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#9 slotbaker

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:31 PM

... Mura actually listened to what John Cukras and Pete Zimmerman had to say and modified the motors in a second series featuring a new white endbell made of phenolic material...

All great info. Thanks for sharing.

Wish I had some of those motors. :wub:

Just a bit curious about the endbell being white phenolic. Didn't know they had white phenolic back then. I thought they were glass or talc-filled 'nylon' or Delrin.

Did these endbells ever melt?
:unsure:

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#10 TSR

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 07:23 PM

Mabuchi used Delrin at first, then switched to white phenolic well after they were out of the picture.

Mura was the second company after RAM to explore phenolic plastics for their endbells, while Champion used Celcon that is a derivative of nylon.

The black Mura end bells were phenolic, and so were the later white ones that were a great improvement over anything at the time.

Nylon and Delrin (a cheaper derivative) have very poor heat-resistance qualities and easily melt. Not a good choice for endbells... which did not stop several manufacturers from using it. Simco endbells were nylon, but RAM endbells for Mabuchi cans were phenolic.

Philippe de Lespinay


#11 slotbaker

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 07:37 PM

Hmmmm, I hear yer, but still not convinced about the white phenolic.

All of the white endbells I ever saw would melt at some point.

Phenolic, being a thermosetting plastic like bakelite, doesn't melt.
:blink:

Steve King


#12 stevefzr

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 08:39 PM

Steve, it is very simple and complex all at the same time.

I'll go with the latter! Actually, it just leaves one question:

... The M444 "Cukras" models also received the same endbell, two-tone paint schemes (very rare today) in various colors, painted by Ron Mura himself in shades of black/gold fogging, silver/yellow fogging, and others.

Note: the M444C "Cukras" ALWAYS had both stickers, the Mura on one side and the flower on the other. Any pink can without the stickers is just another can, as Mura used that color on both "A" and "B" cans in 1969.

So, aside from the two-tone paint on the M444 and the stickers on the M444 and M444C, are there any other differences between the Cukras and regular M400s or are those stickers the only thing you get for the $100 premium? I'm assuming that the Cukras arm options were available in the M400s.

Does this make it a bit clearer for you?

Much. Thanks. I'm going to tag my pictures in Photobucket so I can refer back when I forget.

Regards,

Stephen Corneille


#13 endbelldrive

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 10:41 PM

Does this make it a bit clearer for you?

Yep. :scratch_one-s_head: :good:
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#14 TSR

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 09:45 AM

Hmmmm, I hear yer, but still not convinced about the white phenolic.
All of the white endbells I ever saw would melt at some point.
Phenolic, being a thermosetting plastic like bakelite, doesn't melt.

With all due respect, the evidence is in plain sight. Anything melts under the right amout of temperature, even a rock. Mura used a phenolic-content plastic, but not pure phenolic material. Mura had what was described by the supplier as a 400-degree heat resistant, phenolic-based plastic, enough to stand most of the heat generated by the wildest winds. Indeed I personally ran S23s and the endbell survived.

The basic Mura endbell lasted until the early 1990s in various colors on C-cans with very few on-track problems, and the mix was the same since late 1968.

So, aside from the two-tone paint on the M444 and the stickers on the M444 and M444C, are there any other differences between the Cukras and regular M400s or are those stickers the only thing you get for the $100 premium? I'm assuming that the Cukras arm options were available in the M400s.

The first-series Cukras were little different from the basic M400-series motors. The better-balanced arms were selected to be bombarded "Cukras", but other than the paint on the cans, there was little difference.

The second-series Cukras with the white endbell and solid-color cans (mostly pink as the white and purple ones are quite scarce) had tied comms and a much better brush-holder setup. But so did... the upgraded M400s...

There is little doubt that the Cukras name was not much more than a blueprinted M400 motor. However there is also little doubt that their legendary aura plays a big part of their current market value.

One has to recognize that John Cukras has to be listed in the top five greatest slot car racers of all times, a Tazio Nuvolari or Michael Schumacher of the slot car world.

Philippe de Lespinay


#15 slotbaker

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 05:27 PM

With all due respect, the evidence is in plain sight. Anything melts under the right amout of temperature, even a rock. Mura used a phenolic-content plastic, but not pure phenolic material. Mura had what was described by the supplier as a 400-degree heat resistant, phenolic-based plastic, enough to stand most of the heat generated by the wildest winds.

Agree about rock being able to melt with catastrophic heat and pressure. There are plenty of volcano lava flows to prove that.

I hate to be pedantic, but I also know how you like to be accurate, so I feel obliged to continue this a bit further.

I reckon that if a hot soldering iron was touched against those white 'phenolic' Mura endbells it would leave a melted spot.

Try the same thing on a Bakelite block. You would get a burn mark, but no melt would occur.

Phenolic and Bakelite are thermosetting materials.
For those who are not familiar with plastics, thermoset plastics start out as a powder compound and when they go through the molding process (heat & pressure), undergo a metamorphic change as they cure and crosslink. The result is a material that is irreversible. Can't be heated and remolded.

Nylons, Delrin etc are thermoplastic materials.
They also start out as a powder and when they are molded, the result is a material that could be reground into powder and remolded.

If the end product will melt, even a little bit, from the effects of a hot soldering iron, it can't be called a thermosetting plastic. i.e. phenolic.

I'm not aware of "phenolic-content plastic", but that doesn't mean it's not possible but at the same time it should not be classed as phenolic. It would be normally termed phenolic filled Delrin/Nylon/? etc. Same as glass filled Nylon etc.

Didn't the spring posts melt on those endbells? If they were made from phenolic they would have burnt through and broken off.
:)

Steve King


#16 stevefzr

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 03:40 AM

........
The first-series Cukras were little different from the basic M400-series motors. The better-balanced arms were selected to be bombarded "Cukras", but other than the paint on the cans, there was little difference.

The second-series Cukras with the white endbell and solid-color cans (mostly pink as the white and purple ones are quite scarce) had tied comms and a much better brush-holder setup. But so did... the upgraded M400s...

........


Thanks Doc. That should see me sorted until the new book comes out....on Muras at least.

Regards,

Steve C

Stephen Corneille


#17 Prof. Fate

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 11:57 AM

Hi

"cukras name".....

Who was it who said in the day that if Cukras showd up with "mickey mouse" as the driver in the car, next week half the country would be painting mickey mouse"?

Fate
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#18 TSR

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 01:16 PM

Whoever said it would have been right... :)

Philippe de Lespinay


#19 stevefzr

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 08:48 PM

So what are the Team Cukras motors?

Hi Philippe,

in your book you have some pictures of various Mura and Champion motors, including a pink Cukras and one of the one-hole mura motors on a card with "Team Cukras" written on it. Were all Mura motors marketed that way or were the "Team Cukras" motors and parts different?

Regards,

Steve C

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#20 TSR

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 10:24 AM

Steve C,
Read again. ONLY the "Cukras" versions were marked that way and the cards actually signed by John. All the other versions of the D-size 1968 to 1969 Mura motors do not have the "Cukras" moniker.
The differences are well explained in the previous postings.

Steve K,
Mura advertised their end bells as being made from a "phenolic" material. You may argue with them but not with me, I am not a chemist! However it is quite obvious that the new end bells were a huge progress over either the Mabuchi or the improved but still marginal Champion units. While the black material first used was so-so, the later white translucent material also used in the later "B" and "C" was and still is today truly up to the job. While indeed one may burn (rather than melt) the plastic with an iron, it takes A LOT to get it to lose its integrity. :)

RAM used a similar material in their Mabuchi conversion kits a couple of years earlier and while they were not a commercial success, one who has experienced their qualities can attest of their performance and durability.

Philippe de Lespinay


#21 Horsepower

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 05:16 PM

Can I please get your new book? PLEASE??..... :mega_shok: :sorry:
Gary Stelter
 
My life fades, the vison dims. All that remains are memories... from The Road Warrior

#22 slotbaker

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 05:29 PM

Steve K,
Mura advertised their end bells as being made from a "phenolic" material. You may argue with them but not with me, I am not a chemist!

Fair enough, I'm not a chemist either, but I have had some experience in the plastic moulding game with phenolics.

The thing that triggered my interest was the "white phenolic" comment. Black or brown phenolic for those times, sure, but not white.

I thought the RAM endbell was machined linen bakelite?? Same generic plastic as phenolic, just by another process.

Can you share with us some of the Mura articles where they advertised their end bells as being made from a "phenolic" material?
:huh:

Steve King


#23 stevefzr

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 02:59 AM

Hi Philippe,

I'm still unclear about the Team Cukras motors. In your book you show a picture of several vinatage motors, including this MIP Team Cukras kit.
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The card is signed, but there is no "Cukras" sticker on the side. So is it a Cukras or not? The card says it's an M445C. What separates this from a regular one-hole mura "D"? I imagine the answer is that once separated from the signed card, it's no different internally to any other one-hole D can.

Same goes for this assembled M488C. Once off the card, how would anyone know it was a Team Cukras?

Posted Image

Regards,

Steve C

Stephen Corneille


#24 TSR

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:04 AM

Steve,
Mura motor kits never had stickers on the cans.
Once off the card, a Mura Cukras armature is indistinguishable from standard fare.
The Cukras thing was mostly marketing and little technonogy. At best, the best arms on the winder or balancer ended to be "Cukras". John had very little to do with it at first and would not even run the product in his cars, that is until George Mura asked him "what it would take". John and Pete Zimmerman showed them a few tricks and that made the Series 2 Mura Cukras motors with the white end bell, tied armature and solid color cans in pink, white or metallic purple. Those motors did stay together unlike the first issues.
They are also a LOT less rare, as original issues with the "fogged" paint are extremely rare.

Philippe de Lespinay


#25 Gator Bob

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 09:54 PM

Just found this .... "Very Nice" Mura collection Steve C. :shok:  :good:   'Can' I have some too? :rolleyes:

This along with lots of color pictures is a whole chapter of the new book under construction.   

 

Doc, PdL, Mr. TSR .. anyone there?  Just a reminder ... we want a new book :shout: please !

 

A,B,... A,B,C,Dee... :dance3:

    

:man_in_love:  A love Bizarre of Mura :music:  


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                            Bob Israelite





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