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Motor ideas for Florida MySeries GTP class?


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#1 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:38 PM

The size of the field for GTP has dropped significantly over the last 3 to 4 years. We need a fix. We are running the ProSlot S16D tagged arms right now and we build the motors. The problem with the field size is blamed on the cost of the motor and that only a few gifted racers can build their own competitive S16D motors. If we had a sealed motor that would be re-builable by the seller, be clearly faster than the Hawk 7, Hawk 6, Falcon 7 motors, and cost less than $30, we might be able to get the racers back into GTP. Does anyone have a solution for us? What do you think?
Dan Dougherty
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#2 Ron Hershman

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:03 PM

Pro-Slot S-16-D motors with Chinese arms that have been "Hershman-ized"

#3 Ron Hershman

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:06 PM

There really are not many if any options in the 30 buck range. If they are willing to go to 45 bucks..... comes with American arm, they could be allowed to be worked on as long as they use all stock P-S parts...no interchanging of any other brand.
PS-2104 Motor with PS-700 S16D Balanced Armature
$44.95

#4 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:14 PM

Ron, is the PS-2104 a sealed motor? if the motor is not sealed we are back to a motor builders class which we have now and its not working. BTW: I tried to send you a PM, but I think that your PM mail box is full.
Dan Dougherty
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#5 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:17 PM

How much is the Proslot motor with the chinese arm that you can provide? I think that that is the motor that was used before (maybe, I was not in Florida then). They use to use an inexpensive sealed 16D ProSlot motor that had realibility problems which turned the racers away.
Dan Dougherty
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#6 Gator Bob

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:35 PM

Parma S16D - sealed - $14.00

To keep them out - sealed and screwed P/S w/American $45.00

Or a Kamen set-up with a hand wound - $85.00 or more

Go very fast, pretty fast or go kinda fast very cheap.
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#7 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:45 PM

Bob, the $85 is out of the question here I would think. The type of racers we are trying to brng back into GTP cant afford $85 for one motor. Ron's suggestion about $45 for a sealed fast motor is a possiblibility. The motor we choose here must be sealed, fast, and rebuildable if we send it back in for $15.

I just now talked to Bill about this and his feedback was that us motor builders (all 6 or 7 of us) do not what our motors ruled obsolete. So, I suggested two GTP classes to him. GTP (for the motor builders with S16Ds like we have today) and GTP Lite which would run a sealed S16D motor that I am trying to identify here in this post. Both clsses would run on the track at the same time, but score points for each class separately.
Dan Dougherty
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#8 Gator Bob

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:35 PM

You can throw the Parma's away for less then a rebuild.

Maybe Dan or Ron can come up with a sealed and screwed motor that can compete dollar for dollar with the Parma. I don't get any kickbacks for promoting Super Deathstars or ProSlots ... but I'll listen...lol.

Reliability shmiablitiy they suck the same for everyone @ $14.00.
Side note: I have run the same one in a weighted down FCR tank Dirt Late model and it is still Fast after using it in lots of races from Nov to April. my car can run with the best, ask them.
I think I finished third or fouth at seasons end and you know how I drive.

BTW: stock brushes and springs for me....we run them at 12 volts.

So.... In a flexi...gear it right, cut back from 13.8 and by-by reliability problem. If the guys are tweaking the comms, have a nice smoke.

The class with in a class is a good idea on paper but IMO it will not work.

Just my opinion ... the fast and slow guys will bitch "those slow cars cost me the race" .... "did you see the fast guy run me over...yup...get a real motor or get off the track". The slow guys will not stay with a slower motor, if they can't afford to step up they will leave.
Believe me...limping around and get blown by is not fun.
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#9 Old pink can guy

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:45 PM

Do the scrra thing. Only TSR motors. Their plenty fast and good for more than one race.
Ken Botts

#10 Ron Hershman

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:03 PM

Do the scrra thing. Only TSR motors. Their plenty fast and good for more than one race.


I guess you missed this in the first post??? ;)

"be clearly faster than the Hawk 7, Hawk 6, Falcon 7 motors, and cost less than $30,"

That would also include TSR motors

#11 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:13 PM

The class was very popular in 2007 & 2008 when we were running the less expensive Pro Slot Super 16D Chinese-armed sealed motors. No issues the first year or so and then we encountered, what some of us believed to be, a batch of bad armatures that would detonate. It was suggested that we were over-gearing the motors, but I never changed the ratio from the previous two years and went through three motors in less than thirty minutes on more than one occasion.

Bill started the move to allow the American-wound Pro Slot 700 & 700B. It solved the reliability issue but resulted in a higher initial outlay and gave the builders a percieved advantage. (I'd argue that the builders actually had a bigger advantage when we were running sealed motors because they tended to know more tricks that were possible without breaking the seals.) Anyhow, when we allowed the 700 and 700B the Genie got out of the bottle and there's no easy way to put it back.

A big reason that the class was so well supported in the Series was that we raced the same cars, following the same rules in Jacksonville, Holly Hill, Hudson and I believe Cocoa as part of the weekly racing program. I believe that's what's missing today. Find a less-expensive motor that turns similar lap times AND get more raceways to run the class on a regular basis, then you'll see the entries in the Series increase.

Bill is echoing my sentiment to avoid making existing motors obsolete. And we probably have at least 6 or 7 (probably more) "builders" in Jacksonville alone as we race the class every-other Saturday night.

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#12 Old pink can guy

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:04 PM

I did not miss anything. TSR Scrra motors.
Ken Botts

#13 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:52 AM

Dan and Ron,

How about ProSlot sealed Big Dog motors very fast and I think around 41bucks. You and ProSlot Dan could do the refresh and reseal deals to keep the cost down.

Ken TSR motors are very very slow. I had to run them in a handout race. After the race I beat it flat with a hammer, poured lighter fluid on it and burned it. So I would never be tempted to use it again

#14 Race O' Rama

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:31 AM

Hey guys we run a C-can motor in our GTP class as per OCC rules. the motors were about $35-$55 range depending on what specs they were as far as timing and arm dia.

#15 Race O' Rama

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:35 AM

we also run 64 pitch gears most everyone ran 9/36, 10/38, or 11/39

#16 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 05:21 AM

I can't believe this has been brought up again. But if we want to beat a dead horse, then so be it.

The Pro Slot Chinese S16D motor is garbage. You can put all the seals on them, tie the comms on them, they are garbage. They don't last. The Parma S16D is just a dog. If it don't throw a wind, it'll blow the comm. This is one of the reasons the Pro Slot American arm was allowed was because racers were going broke to buy three $15 motors to try to do one race (wow, three $15 Chinese motors that aren't as good as one $45 American Arm motor..think about that). I myself don't want to go through this sealed motor fiasco again as I ran the series in 2008 and 2009 when the top racer in GTP in the state those years was sending his "Sealed S16D Chinese Pro Slots" to a motor refurbisher to get them redone.....that means the seals were coming off, the motor rebuilt..and put back together again with seals. Kind of makes it fair in a sealed motor class huh? How do I know this...the guy told me he was doing it...it was common knowledge it was going on..and nothing was ever done. The also tells me the ethics of the motor refurbisher stink, knowing he was helping someone cheat. Just after the almighty buck I guess.

The Hawk 7 is not a fix. It won't last a race. The quality has gone downhill so bad on that motor, the brushes will be gone by heat #7, or the motor will start two speeding so bad you might as well be going in reverse. Any that I get that are bad motors or blow up in one race are being boxed up and sent back to JK demanding a refund. I can remember when these motors would last a long time and I bragged on them. Now, I don't want to run them in ANY class. I like to finish races thank you very much.

Puppy Dog or Big Dog...forget it. They get too hot and are near the cost ($4-$5) of an out of the bag blueprinted Pro Slot .560 arm "Big Block" S16D that will be competitive right out of the bag on any track in Florida.

The Hawk 6 would be a viable choice as it works well out of the bag, and can pull a GT-1 as well as a Wing Car with no problem. Just have to figure out how to keep it stock armatures to keep the "grey area" racers from sending the arm out to be balanced and tricked up by the motor refurbishers. This motor will run well with a stock arm without all the fancy crap being done. Put a seal on that, allow us to change brushes and springs, and we'll run that. I have no issue.

I suggested a couple of years ago going to a Chinese S16C motor , or going to a Chinese Contender arm motor in a "C" can...that idea was shot down. Still not that expensive and can have seals put on. They elected to keep the Chinese S16D or allow the American Arms. I went to the American arm and haven't looked back. I can build very competitive S16D Big Blocks to race on any track in this state.

I am not going to give up the S16D American arms now. I have too many motors built up plus I have been racing this series for a few years now, more years than the guys now complaining. There aren't that many alternatives out there right now that will compete and last a race without fragging or burning up. If you want the Amateur/Novice class GTP racers to use a Falcon VII, so be it. Specify a gear ratio and tire size and have at it. Expert class which I run in should be left as is and EVENTUALLY phase out the S16D over two seasons. You drop it like a rock in one season and I won't be back and neither will some others. Then what have you gained?

My Series shot themselves in the foot one year when they raised the entry fees to $15 per race. THAT alone drove racers away. The bad economy didn't help a whole lot either, so there is a lot of reasons some classes have dropped off. NASCAR is still popular, and about 80% of the motors are built 16D using the Pro Slot spec arm. I used a Falcon VII in that class myself until I started having problems with motor failures, so now I run 16D's.

Many things can be said about why racers left. No Amateur class NASCAR or GTP is one thing. Everyone has to qualify? I can look back to 2008 and find there were an average of about 24 racers alone in the Amateur NASCAR class. If you had to quality back then it would have been two days of racing.

Maybe we need to go back to Amateur classes in NASCAR and GTP (though there never was one in GTP but should have been). But race owners would have to be the ones that classify their racers as Amateur or Expert, and that's something they could never agree on in the first place. This could be done but qualifying would have to go, otherwise you would be there all day and night trying to get done.

Unfortunately I have never been able to sit in on the rules meetings. Usually its the people going who don't hardly race that get to go. I offer suggestions, sometimes they are taken, sometimes they are scoffed at.

The biggest thing we need is for all the tracks to run MY SERIES class races. Jacksonville is the only track doing so following MY SERIES rules in four classes. Does Bill? Does Kenny? DoesGreg? Hmmmm.....there's your answer. Oh, and the other race tracks MUST encourage racers to attend the races at the other tracks. The last couple of years it's been a couple of racers from Bills track going to other tracks, five or six from Daytona, and six or seven from Jacksonville. The other tracks (granted Miracle Mile closed) havent sent anyone the last two years that I know of. That says a lot right there.
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#17 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:19 PM

The most logical choice you have with S16ds is to have ProSlot seal their American arm S16d FX motor for you and use that as the designated motor for the class. That motor can then be serviced by ProSlot or Ron based on your coordination just like the PD mini motors. However to be totally fair all other non-ProSlot arms and setups would not be allowed to race. One other optionis to send all your prebuilt motors to Ron to have then certified as legal within a certain spec and then sealed by him. No more motor building or tampering with the seals.

Just a suggestion...
Yortuk & Georg Festrunk

#18 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:56 PM

Hello cousin, its good to hear from you.

Mike makes a great point. If the participating raceways would run as weekly races the same car classes that we use in MySeries, the series would draw more drivers. Rollin up in Jacksonville (as Mike points out) is the only raceway that runs the MySeries car classes as weekly races. And it shows when I go up there, Rollin has the best turnout. So for the series to be more successful and more profitable to each raceway, the local tracks should run weekly races having the same car class rules. But its up to the raceway to see the merit of this. It seems obvious to me.

Now if we could convince Kenny and Greg in doing this. Bill was running GT1 and alternated GTP with Group F, but not enough racers show up now at his track on Saturday nites; Bills oval program is king. Kenny has said to me, "why should I stop my guys from wanting to go faster", so he gives in on BBs in GT1 and group F. Then when it comes to the MySeries race, these same guys want to run the BBs, DAH!

Putting together several things I read here and from PMs, for the GTP car class, I think that we need to run two car classes together. The GTP class would be for guys like Mike and several others who build S16Ds. That car class stays the same. Then add the GTP Lite class for the sealed ProSlot S16D motors that can be re-built by Ron or Dan, and then they can re-seal the motor. Driver points are scored for each class. These two motors should run very close together. In this manner, the motor builders can still build motors and not have their equipment made obsolete, and the other racers can be as fast with sealed motor.

I have given up on the fast, reliable, inexpensive motor for GTP because it seems it does not exist. And when i say fast, I mean on par with the built S16Ds that we run today.

In the GTP builders class, how about allowing Hawk 6 motors with the tagged ProSlot fast arm?
Dan Dougherty
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#19 Mike K

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:07 PM

I did not miss anything. TSR Scrra motors.


What you DID miss (aside from the desire to have a faster motor) is that TSR motors turn the wrong direction to use in a flexi anglewinder chassis.......

So much DRAMA for such small cars....
Mike Kravitz

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#20 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:02 PM

Why is the TSR motor being talked about here? Read post #1. We need a motor that is on a par with our built S16Ds or close to it. And as pointed out above, it turns the wrong direction for our flexi-chasses. We have the Falcon 7 running with a built FLA16D in 4" Nascar, and the Hawk 7 in GT1. The next class up in speed is GTP for us here in Florida.

About the TSR, I run these motors in our monthly IRRA GRRR races. They are a good motor and they are on a par with the Falcon 7. They are too slow to run in the GTP class.
Dan Dougherty
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#21 Mike Jr

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:46 PM

I have been running the falcon 7 in our B-LITE class and they have been wicked fast but only last approx 3 races. I don`t know what the approx weight of your GT1 cars are but my B-Lite car is around 86 grams. A few years ago we were racing S-1 6-D motors and we never went as fast as using the falcon 7 but the car must be as lite as possible! Just my 2 cents

my home track is Dom`s in NJ
Mike Spisak, Jr

#22 John Streisguth

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:01 PM

That's a tough act...sealed, reliable, and priced at around $30. Doesn't seem like this exists, but certainly the $45-$50 realm seems possible. If they are fast, reliable, and can be rebuilt, that seems to be a decent price range to get everything on your "wish list".

"whatever..."


#23 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:02 PM

Mike, thank you for your input. The type of track greatly effects the lap time comparison between a Falcon 7 VS S16D. We are very familar with the Falcon 7, I run that motor quit alot. However, on our 4 tracks here in Florida, a well built S16D will always run lower lap times than a flexi chassis with a Falcon 7; its nite and day difference. My Falcon 7 C11 4" Nascar weighs in at 85 grams RTR. So we are very close on weight.
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#24 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:04 PM

John, yea, it looks like that is the most reasonable approach.
Dan Dougherty
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#25 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:07 PM

Bill's track is a lot of fun for GT1 and GTP. Especially since the move a year-or-so ago. I'm surprised that more guys don't show up to race those classes in Melbourne. Although ..... part of it might be the fact that the races are scheduled for Saturday night. Our Saturday crowds have been off a little since school got out as well.

I like the rules in our NASCAR class because the Falcon 7 and the FLA16D give racers a choice that are fairly even. A FLA16D in the hands of a good builder and good driver is faster, but the handling advantage (and coast) of a Falcon 7 tends to even things out. Fact is that a Falcon 7 holds the class record for laps on our track even though a FLA16D holds the lap time record.

I like the rules in our GT1 class with the Hawk 7. I'd entertain adding the Hawk 6 if there was a way to keep the motors stock. Maybe allowing the H6 in Group F is an entry point for that motor.

Regarding going faster ------ Going faster is not always better for a raceway. I believe that close racing with multiple winners and very few rule changes is what keeps guys coming back. That's why we almost always split our racers into to two or three races in GT1 and NASCAR. That way more people go home having either Won or felt like they had a chance to Win.

A lot of racers are on a tight budget. Constant rule changes or allowing new products just because they're" new" and/or faster might be good short-term for the cash register, but I believe that it hurts the business in the long-term because racers get frustrated and quit. If I raced at a raceway where I built a competitive car to today's rules and then a few weeks later I'm told that I really need different pitch gears to win and a few weeks later I'm told that I really need ball bearings to win and a few weeks later I'm told that I really need this new trick body to win and a few weeks later I'm told that I really need these new special tires to win, then at some point I look at the budget and decide to do something else. It gets frustrating to try to hit a constantly moving target.

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#26 Gator Bob

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:29 PM


Maybe allowing the H6 in Group F is an entry point for that motor.

Regarding going faster ------ Going faster is not always better for a raceway.

A lot of racers are on a tight budget.

It gets frustrating to try to hit a constantly moving target.


Right on!
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#27 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:24 PM

What I would like to see happen in MY SERIES for upcoming races.

I would like stock Hawk 6's allowed in both GT-1 and Group F. Seals can be purchased by the raceways and applied by the track owners on the motors allowing the racers to change springs and brushes only. For about $22 we get a motor that will run several races on a state level before having to be rebuiilt, and it will be competitive off the wall. Don't believe me, I have a GT-1 and a Group F that both have Hawk 6's put in at the same time in January. Both have the same Koford Springs and Gold Dust Pro brushes that were put in at that time. The Group F just ran in a race on our track and turned 235 laps. My Hawk 6 in the GT-1 has about four races on it, when I get to run on Wednesday nights, and when I put it on the track last Saturday, turned a sub 4.3 second time on its second lap out of my box, very competitive I would say.

As far as allowing the motors to be sent out to be rebuilt. NO. If you are going to pay $15 to send it off to have that done, just buy another sealed Hawk 6 and set of brushes and springs and you have a new motor. Lets keep the reconditioners out of this. Like I said, I know what happened before, and it's just not fair for everyone. I guess I should be more trusting, but I have to be given a reason to do so.

If we want to phase in a new motor over the next two years in GTP, then lets do so in that fashion, and not all at once. If you want to keep it low cost, again the Hawk 6 would work here without going to the expense of a S16D American arm. But allow those of us that have American S16D arms to use them up first before changing.

I will not buy any more Hawk 7 motors to run GT-1 in the My Series Races, nor will I run one in Group F. If the owners choose to stay with the Hawk 7 only, I will not run those classes, I have better things to do with my money. Better yet I'll just lay $14 on the counter and light it with a match...that's about the equivalent of running a Hawk 7 now.

Right now, allowing ball bearings in the S16D can end, and the 16D can end, are a good thing. They do help the motor and gear mesh. But we don't need them in GT-1 motors or Group F motors. We don't need axle bearings in those classes either. If you want to get that carried away, run a Box 12.

My two cents....
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#28 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:40 PM

Worth at least .05

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#29 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:45 PM

Mike, my comment above about Kenny allowing BBs, that was the axle ball bearing not the motor.
Dan Dougherty
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#30 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 08:11 PM

Doc, I know this but it would only be a natural progression till that happened. The owner in question would certainly want to go that
route. Him and his three racers.
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#31 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:10 PM

Well, dont get me wrong about Kenny. I do like him alot and Mike. And I like racing at ASR.
Dan Dougherty
Back into it after 38 years

#32 Pablo

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:59 PM

Doc, you say "the problem with the field size is blamed on the cost of the motor and that only a few gifted racers can build their own competitive S16D motors".

I am curious to know what is so hard about building a S16D. Does one really have to be truly "gifted" ???
For example, why can't you just take a PS-700-42 for $28, and a PS S16D Setup PS 2100, $16, slide in the arm, space it, pre-radius the brushes, and break it in ? Send in the arm and can every so often for a refurb, and a motor like that should last a long time.

I think you are kidding yourself if you think that can be done for <$30, though. If the racers are really on that tight of a budget, why not race Deathstars instead, at 12 V they last forever.....

Paul Wolcott

 


#33 Toni-Lee Neilson

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 02:11 AM

We are still going though the same thing. We started off with the S16D (502) and then some people started to turn up with the pro slot S16D's.. Then we went to the Falcon 7's, but they didn't last. To try and keep the price down and make things even we went to the blue printed Hawk 6 motors $23 http://www.alphaslot...e7a690c33742408, but the Chinese armatures still crap out but can be brought for $11.95 (stock Hawk armatures epoxying the windings diamond commutator truing and precision dynamic balance). , , so now are thinking of going to the American arm ones. $43 http://www.e-slotcar.com/products/9149 Our rules stat that you must use a standard can, arm, magnets and no ball bearings, but anything else can be changed.
Good luck to whatever motor you decide on.

#34 Phil Irvin

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 02:18 AM

I run at ASR. One of the more popular races is the JK RTR GT1 with the Hawk 7. In the last 6 1/2 mo. I am on my 3rd motor. The brakes went on the 3rd race and afer 6 I still run it. Its about a tenth slower but one less off and I still can turn laps with the best.

We run the Hawk 6 in the wings and yes the Pro Slot is about a tenth and a half faster.....most of the time. We had 6 out of 8 and had a close race for the podium. The stocker arms were run by the new racers and were not real competitive but putting in a PS is so easy...And yes I DO have a PS thats a dog AND a JK that WAS fast but tossed a wire... so it happens to all.......

One of the real popular races is the 5-5.5 race whitch is a double break out. Doesn't mater what car/motor/body you got. Just gotta gear/ weigh/.adjust brakes to slow in the middle lanes and go quicker on the outside lanes. Mike V. won with a very undergeard slow G12....got me... I run a C11 with a home balanced Hawk 6, that has 8/9 raced, a high downforce GTP body and car that weighs 120 grams. Can run 5.0s on red with a lot of brakes or 5.0s on orange with little brakes. Put the brakes back on and it will run 4,6s Tonight was my fault cause I changed to harder tires and red killed me :dash2:

NEXT WEEK MIKE :victory:
PHIL I.

#35 Mr. M

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:14 AM

I know this has been done in the past, but would a hand out motor work now? It seems there are 2 issues, making a available a competitive motor widely available and keeping the cost down. Is this a possibility?
Chris McCarty

#36 slotcarone

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:27 AM

:) Dan you are looking for a motor that doesn't exist right now. Anyone who knows me will know about my dislike for Falcon motors and I know you said you want something faster than that but IMO the lighter weight offered over a 16D sized motor will give your cars faster lap times if set up properly. At Hudson Valley Raceway we have been racing B Prod Lite with Falcon's for quite a while and for the most part the racers are very happy with the performance/longevity of them and they are plenty fast. Just a suggestion!!!!

Mike Katz

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#37 havlicek

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:18 AM

Are there any C-can based motors that would fit the bill? Are contenders dogs? 16C? I have no idea bout such things, but a C can is going to be smaller and more efficient I would think???

-john
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#38 slotcarone

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:29 AM

Are there any C-can based motors that would fit the bill? Are contenders dogs? 16C? I have no idea bout such things, but a C can is going to be smaller and more efficient I would think???

-john

John you are correct about the C can such as a Group 12 but the cost for anything fast is prohibitive.

Mike Katz

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#39 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

Doc, you say "the problem with the field size is blamed on the cost of the motor and that only a few gifted racers can build their own competitive S16D motors".

I am curious to know what is so hard about building a S16D. Does one really have to be truly "gifted" ???
For example, why can't you just take a PS-700-42 for $28, and a PS S16D Setup PS 2100, $16, slide in the arm, space it, pre-radius the brushes, and break it in ? Send in the arm and can every so often for a refurb, and a motor like that should last a long time.

I think you are kidding yourself if you think that can be done for <$30, though. If the racers are really on that tight of a budget, why not race Deathstars instead, at 12 V they last forever.....


Pablo,

Some of us agree. Personally, I'm pretty happy with the S16D. You buy either a factory-built S16D for about $44 or buy a blueprinted setup for about $16 and a S16D armature for about $30. For an extra $7 you can add a bearing in the can. They're fast and reliable.



:) Dan you are looking for a motor that doesn't exist right now. Anyone who knows me will know about my dislike for Falcon motors and I know you said you want something faster than that but IMO the lighter weight offered over a 16D sized motor will give your cars faster lap times if set up properly. At Hudson Valley Raceway we have been racing B Prod Lite with Falcon's for quite a while and for the most part the racers are very happy with the performance/longevity of them and they are plenty fast. Just a suggestion!!!!


Mike,

We kind of already have that class. Our GT1 class in the Series is sponsored by JK and we use the Hawk 7 motor. It's one of our most popular classes.

Rollin Isbell
 


#40 NJ Racer

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:55 AM

Doc

Check out the Speedzone Raceway, Mount Holly, NJ website. They attract a field of up to 50 every Monday night, racers young and old alike racing basically a $100 dollar car. Seriously, its never the type of motor, cost of the motor, or lack of a seal on a motor that deters participation. The raceway operators and employees need to lead by example, provide outstanding customer service, transfer their knowledge to the racer along with direction, guidance, and assistance at all times, and most important display a caring attitude. Best wishes.
"Ya gotta be in it to win it"

Ray Carlisi

#41 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:21 AM

I know this has been done in the past, but would a hand out motor work now? It seems there are 2 issues, making a available a competitive motor widely available and keeping the cost down. Is this a possibility?


MY SERIES ran handout motors in the NASCAR classes up to 2007. It was a fiasco. At the end of a race, the motors would go back into a bag. You could never tell what you were going to get or what had been done by the previous racer . Maintenance was also an issue. Rollin can elaborate on this more if he wishes. Let's just say this won't be an option. When we started running the Spec American made 16D, it was better for everyone, even though the motors cost a bit more.

Right now, if they keep running Amateur and Expert together and go by qualifying times as far as seeding the mains, the S16D American arm is the way to go. Like I said, you can buy a "Big Block" .560 diameter S16D Pro Slot motor off the wall for $48.50. It comes with decent (not good) springs and Gold Dust Pro Brushes. Add a pair of Koford M313 springs, and you can run it, have good brakes and run several races with it without beating yourself to death. Say you get five races out of it before a rebuild, then you are already ahead a little because you would be buying one Hawk 7 per race.

Back when I suggested the sealed S16C with Chinese arm, Pro Slot did have those available with a seal on them. They were under $25 I think. I don't even believe they make them now. Pro Slot does make a sealed Contender armed motor. This would be a viable alternative as they are about $31-33.
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#42 havlicek

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:33 AM

John you are correct about the C can such as a Group 12 but the cost for anything fast is prohibitive.


Looking at PCH's website, I see a PS 734 Super 16C for $37.45. It looks like a nice motor. I have no idea about performance, but seems like a good platform to race in a series??? I also see a PS 3001S balanced Contender (sealed) for $31. Those both seem like a good deal as well. Then there's the Champion "Sportsman II and Mura Challenger II (balanced) in the mid $30 range. Again, I have no idea about performance, but these all seem like good candidates on the surface.

-john
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#43 havlicek

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:55 AM

I don't really understand why (as good as they are compared to old D can motors) people skip over C can motors for this type of racing. C can motors are a much better size and weight from an efficiency standpoint AND a chassis-building standpoint, and there are certainly plenty of parts for them. I'm probably missing something, but answers like:

John you are correct about the C can such as a Group 12 but the cost for anything fast is prohibitive.


...make me think people don't even consider what's below G12. At up to $60 or even $70, the faster D motors aren't exactly "cheap as chips" either. There's no reason why similar arms and tech can't be used in the smaller C motor.

-john
John Havlicek

#44 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:55 AM

I totally agree with you John, that the sealed Pro Slot Contender would be a viable option at that price. I know people from other states that run them and have good luck with them. I would have no problem running them in GTP if Dan Dabella would stand behind them and give us some guarantee as far as longevity at the voltage we run at (13.7-13.8). If we start having reliability issues like with did with the Pro Slot S16D and 16D Chinese arm sealed motors, then it would just be Deja Vu all over again. I don't want to have to go through motors exploding halfway through a race. Having to put a labled spec arm in at a later date would just defeat the purpose of keeping the cost down.

The best answer is, there is no easy answer for everyone.
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#45 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:28 PM

How would a contender perform vs a puppydog
Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta

#46 marc

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:10 PM

i realy know what you guys are looking for a magic unicorn motor from pixi dust land ?

why not used the pro slot sealed ps 2101-s run some laps and set the break out 2 tenths faster
than the fastest car ... there is no way your gonna come up with a un cheatable motor.
even the lower classes like fcr the motors are all fixed up. bye .
Marc Ronhock





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