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A wonderful piece of Lancer history surfaces...


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#1 TSR

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:22 PM

During his visit at the LASCM in the past few days, Lancer's founder and model maker Lloyd Asbury reviewed some historical facts and debunked some of the stories that have been floating around for a while regarding who did what and when.

Asbury and two other credible gentlemen confirmed my writings, that Lloyd was THE talent there, and that the two other gentlemen working on the vacuum forming tooling were little else than his helpers. Neither created any models that actually reached production and their job was merely that of casting production tools inside rubber molds according to Lloyd's instructions, and Lloyd came back to apply the finishing touches on such tools.

Lloyd also confirmed what I already had pieced together, such as how the company was formed, how it operated and which were the first models produced.

This conversation also sorted out most of the mysteries of the numbering system, that appears at first to show that there were a lot of unknown models before Lloyd's partner in the new company, John Brunson, figured a system. In fact, the first Lancer models were made of a material used in the craft business, a plastic that was tinted and metalized, and one had to scrub areas to uncover windows. These early models were mostly of American hot rods, based on Ford Model A and Model T, plus later Ford V8s.

But before Lloyd even sculpted the first Lancer mold, his own sketching had led to this original design that is possibly the very first "thingy" ever produced for use as a slot car. Only three were ever made, and this one survived and has been donated to the LASCM:

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The body is made, like several from the era, of two halves forming a clam shell. Scuderia Scale was another company using the process, in white styrene. The two halves had to be trimmed to clear the wheels and running gear, and were then glued together, forming a rigid unit:

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Interestingly, some of the lines can be found in the later Lancer body, the ARR Special, that once sold in quantities to C&S Distributing, becoming the rather well-known Cannon "Vendetta 465".

Philippe de Lespinay





#2 Steve Deiters

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:28 PM

And I thought I knew a lot about slot racing back in the day. This is totally new to me...

Good work. Keep them coming, PdL.

#3 Lone Wolf

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:11 PM

Very cool! When I look at the grille and front fender area it reminds me of some of those Fisher body Guild competition entries from the '50s. Kind of a generic futuristic style. The roof line is very Vendetta like to my eye.

Thanks for posting.

Joe Lupo


#4 don.siegel

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:46 PM

Very interesting Philippe. Is Lloyd still around LA?

There were a couple of questions I had and I know we've talked about this, but don't remember what we concluded, if anything...

All the early Lancer shells were pretty ordinary in quality, and it isn't until some unknown point that they really become outstanding... Were other people involved at the beginning, or ...??

Also, my friend and well known designer Pierre Yves showed me an early Lancer 1/32 Aston Martin shell (I think...) that basically clips over a French Minialuxe 1/32 model and was obviously molded on it... any idea where that could have come from? Strange, I know, but I trust PYL's eye...

There were also these strange Lancer pre-painted shells, brush-painted with yellow pin-striping... Did he remember those at all?

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#5 TSR

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:01 PM

There were also these strange Lancer pre-painted shells, brush-painted with yellow pin-striping... Did he remember those at all?


Yes, of course. These are early Lancer bodies that were hand-painted by a gentleman called John Carlson. Here is a quick quote from the new book:

To promote the product, Lancer had some "body boards" made in house for use by distributors and retailers. These were stackable and had the Lancer's vacuum-formed knight emblem painted in metallic bronze colors and mounted on the board, with an array of pre-painted and decaled bodies pinned to a soft background. John Carlson was one of the early employees, in charge of painting the bodies for the boards. These were not sprayed as they later were but hand-brushed. They received adhesive striping and water-slide number decals and were stamped on their inside with their name and stock number, once a numbering system had been devised.


We have now been able to assert that while the very first bodies were made of metallized plastic, very quickly that changed and the same bodies (a 1936 fender-less Ford roadster, a 1927 fender-less '27 T "lakester", a '34 Ford V8 coupe, and a Ferrari 156 "shark nose" were now produced in clear butyrate. While the early bodies are a bit crude, and indeed some were ripped from existing injected plastic models (the Connaught and Vanwall were lifted from the Merit plastic kits), it did not take long for Lloyd to refine his art and subsequent models became absolute wonders of forming precision and accuracy.

As an aparte, the 1963 Novi Indy car (the two-wheel drive model) was one of several molds that Lancer purchased from the bankruptcy of a former K&B vacuum forming plant, in which Asbury and Brunson were invited. Once there, they were offered to buy what they wanted. Lancer ended purchasing everything in the building, including screw machines and vacuum-forming machines, that were transferred to San Bernardino. But the employees of the K&B plant did not know what was going on and found the doors locked when going back to work over the weekend! A nasty way to find out that you lost your job...

Lloyd repaired and modified the purchased molds that joined the growing line of bodies, while a gentleman was hired to make work of the screw machines. He stayed with Lancer to the end, and now owns his own machine shop in Corona.

Don, the only other mold makers at Lancer were Lloyd's helpers, Dave Susan and a young man whose I have the name somewhere, but they were just doing the "slave work".

The numbering system begins in most Lancer sales literature at "85", but it really does not mean that 84 models were previously produced. As for many such companies, numbering often began at "101" or "1001" to give an impression of previous business and experience in the field, to reassure customers.

At the beginning, Lancer had no stock numbers, just names, and the bodies were not bagged or boxes, just loose with a paper tag taped or stuck inside them. The boxes came in 1966. There were three different styles of paper tags before that, and the boxes came in two different colors, the yellow ones used for the painted bodies, blue for the clear ones. Later, a metal foil label was stuck on the yellow boxes to indicate other lines, like the first Lexan bodies.

To destroy a legend that has been floating and that is patently false, no Lancer bodies were produced after Lloyd left in 1970, and no new models were ever created after that date. Brunson filled orders from existing stocks, eventually selling all remaining inventories to Associated Electrics, who tried unsuccessfully to sell them. Eventually, Gene Husting dumped the thousands of unsold bodies in a 40' dumpster and they joined the famous Irvine landfill where so many good things got buried over the years, that include a real Maserati 151 coupe AND one of the five Chaparral 1s!

The last models made by Lloyd at Lancer were that of a 1970 March-Chevrolet 707 Can-Am car and of the ill-fated 1969 Eagle "Mag" F1 car, that was rechristened "A Formula". A Ti22 was in the wings but was not completed at Lancer, instead became the base for the Kirby-Associated model as well as the MAC model with a shorter nose.

For a few months, Lloyd worked for Associated, creating the Kirby range in 1/24 and 1/32 scale, then moved to create a new company called M.A.C. with his friends Barry Crowe and John McGuyer.

Philippe de Lespinay


#6 Jairus

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:05 PM

Dave Susan, by the way, lives in Portland, Oregon. He is a member of Scale Auto Builders Assoc. Inc. model car club and a good friend.

Nice historical notes, Philippe. Cannot wait for the book... :)

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#7 Maximo

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:15 PM

Dokk,

With such a prominent guest in town and visiting LASCM, I hope that more discussions are revealed here for us hungry slot car fanatics of any news of what Lloyd Asbury could reveal.
Or are we to wait for the book?

-Max

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#8 TSR

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:05 PM

You have to wait... :)

Philippe de Lespinay


#9 Pete L.

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 08:18 AM

Philippe,

Thanks for all the info!
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#10 Bruce Neasmith

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:17 AM

PDL

Firsthand information is always the best and I am sure that you have not only sorted out the facts from fiction, but in the foregoing information in this 'thread', exposed us all to some stuff that we knew nothing about. When I think about 'Lancer' in general, I think of the finest clear slot car bodies that were ever done in the hobby. Lloyd Asbury deserves all the plaudits that he gets.

Just the other week, I picked up some old 1/32 scale slot car stuff at a local Sunday market stall . Most of the stuff was used and abused but it was from the '60s and there was also some "clamshell" body kits done in what looks like white styrene. They are 'Shellpacks' by 'Mardave Plastics", and the plastic baggies with header card hold two bodies in each bag. I have never seen these things before and to me they look very English, perhaps, as point of origin. Body details are, shall we say, somewhat vague. Subjects include Ford GT, BRM F1, Mercedes F1, Brabham, etc., etc. So the 'clamshell' body idea must have been widespread in the early days of slot cars.

Just for your info in case this is yet another long-lost 'cottage' brand.

Bruce Neasmith

#11 don.siegel

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:56 AM

Bruce,

The Mardave shells are definitely English. Here's some more INFO from our British friends.

And a celebration of blobbyness!

Cheers,

Don

#12 TSR

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:42 AM

Bruce and Don, thanks!

I am of course well aware of the Mardave shells, and there were several other British brands making similar bodies in white and tinted styrene.

In the USA the best known company using the process was Scuderia Scale, and as this "pre-Lancer Lancer" body shows, the clamshell body was nothing new. In fact, if one looks at the early 1961 Scalextric plastic cars and some of the Strombecker models, clamshell construction was already common, and well before those were the Merit plastic kits, then the Strombecker, Lindberg, and Monogram static and motorized 1/24 scale kits. So the vac-formers had something to look at!

However, the very first TRUE Lancer bodies were single shells; the clamshell construction was never used.

Philippe de Lespinay


#13 idare2bdul

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:52 AM

I suspect that the Kirby bodies we threw out at Pro Slot may have come from Associated. The main thing we kept were the small empty glass bottles that were part of the purchases.

Dan let us keep as many bodies as we wanted but I only kept a few. There was no vintage racing and living in an apartment at the time my space was limited.

After the slot car boom was over the final fate of most slot products was the landfill.
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Mike Boemker

#14 Bruce Neasmith

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:44 PM

The first "Kirby" 1/32 body which I ever saw was the last car that I made up prior to deserting slots in favour of more costly pursuits.

Now would I be right in thinking that it was a Chaparral because the only thing that I can remember about it was that I painted the body
white, which is not a colour that I used very much at all for bodies. The body came in a small box and I remember the molding as crisp! I don't believe that this side of the pond, I have come up with another Kirby in either 1/32 or 1/24. Suppose I will have to look at ePay if I want to find one.

My second-to-last 1/32 car that I built up was using an 'International Engineering' Dodge Charger and forty years later, I still have it resplendent in its coat of bright orange but minus the scratchbuilt chassis. Maybe the chassis is buried here somewhere.

Sometimes the best swap meets that I ever go to are in my "Bat Cave", which is a repository of this hobby's misadventures!

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#15 TSR

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:32 PM

Bruce,

It was the Chaparral 2J "sucker car". That was the only 1/32 scale Chaparral done by Lloyd for Kirby-Associated.

Philippe de Lespinay


#16 Bruce Neasmith

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:44 PM

PdL,

"Bingo" - that was it, I remember it now.

Did Kirby do much in 1/24 bodies - how many?

I've still got some of the 'M.A.C.' 1/24s that I currently use in our D3 Can-Am Retro class.

Thanks for the memories!

Bruce Neasmith

#17 TSR

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:03 PM

Bruce,

As far as I recall without looking in all the docs, Associated (under the Jim Kirby's name) marketed four to six models in 1/32 scale and a dozen in the 1/24 scale. That lasted a fairly short time as they dumped slot cars in 1971 for good and went R/C racing. But in 1973 they made a deal with Lee Gilbert and produced for a couple of years new bodies called "Associated SS" (SS for Speed Secrets).

The Kirby bodies I recall were:

1/32 Chaparral 2J, Porsche 917K, Ferrari 312P, and... ???
1/24 Ti22, Nissan G7, Ferrari 312P, McLaren M8F, and ???

I suspect that the Kirby bodies we threw out at Pro Slot may have come from Associated.


Since they were the manufacturer there is indeed a pretty good chance that they came from there... :D

Philippe de Lespinay


#18 32Deuce

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:53 AM

1/24 Kirby McLaren M8B, I believe:

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Mike Zimmerman
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#19 Mark H

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:16 PM

Who wants to go with me to dig around in the Irvine dump? I got a new metal detector. :D

Great history, PdL. I really like that first body.
Mark Haas

#20 TSR

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:21 AM

The Irvine landfill, that contains thousands of unsold Cox kits and slot car parts, the real Team Meridian Chaparral 1 and Maserati 151 coupe (which bizarrely are "back" today as "restored" !!) and plenty more period goodies that also include my 1970 Suzuki kitted racer motorcycle, was leveled, sanitized, and prepped for condominium construction in the late 1980s.

Today, the entire canyon has several thousand town homes gracing the scenery, and digging might upset the residents there, of which few have a clue of the lost treasures crushed under their feet.

Philippe de Lespinay


#21 One27ray

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:22 AM

I think one (everyone, say 10,000 people) has to contact the EPA and complain about the toxic waste around the old Irvine dump area?? And see if they condemn the area and come dig up the earth??? Then we can pick the dump trucks clean. :good: It's only an idea... :dash2:
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#22 Maximo

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:37 AM

That buried stuff is swimming in methanol by now!

Great to imagine but like the urban legends of finding treasure in an old barn it is not meant to be.

Too bad though.

-Max

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Thingies are my thingy!


#23 TSR

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:49 AM

Ray,

:laugh2:

Good luck on that one. The EPA approved the site before construction began after tons of rocks, then fresh dirt raised the ground by like 50 feet... as per their guidelines.

Philippe de Lespinay


#24 draggon

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:48 PM

Perhaps in your critique, does the name Dave Susan come up? :laugh2:
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#25 TSR

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:03 PM

It does in the book. Dave Susan was one of two helpers to Lloyd Asbury.

Philippe de Lespinay






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