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#1 havlicek

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

     From time to time, I'll buy non-slot motors (usually modern Mabuchis, but sometimes others) for parts that can be used in the old motors.  Not long ago I got a half dozen eBay motors because they're of a type that use an armature the same size as an FT36D.  These particular ones I bought for the magnets as the modern ceramics are usually at least "Arco" strength.  The arms are 5 pole, so I wouldn't normally use them and, at $5 a pop for the motors, each pair of magnets costing $5 (if I throw away the rest of the motor) is cost-effective.  Of course, these magnets are a bit tall and too long, so they have to be cut down to fit them into a 36D can...but that's not that difficult and even without re-zapping, the magnets still come in at around 1000 on my meter.

 

     This time, I took apart one of the motors and decided to strip and rewind the arm.  The stack was way-long for a Mabuchi FT36D application, so I shortened that also.  The com seems like a good quality piece, so I carefully took apart the tab welds and had at it.  There are a couple of different 5-pole patterns I've thought about, so I used one for this along with some #29 wire and re-welded the com tabs.  The result is about .3 ohm per pole with some variation because of the way the first and last poles get wrapped.  Anyway, the motor runs very smooth and has a weird/different sound to it...probably because of the very narrow gaps between the poles.  Lots of revs, drawing about 1.7 ohms and not getting too warm, but it doesn't seem to have much natural braking.  I might tighten up the airgap some and see what that does, but it was a fun project.

 

     Anyway, there are all kinds of electric motors out there that can be hacked for our purposes and they often go for peanuts as "surplus".  They can make it a lot easier to work on "the old ones".

 

-john


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#2 Guy Spaulding

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

The technique works the other way around too.  Like the time I took an american stock RC motor and some quality NiCAD batteries and installed them in my wife's dust buster.  She like it a lot!  Then, the motor burnt out in the Christmas village ice scating rink. So I installed a Falcon.  Can you say "Speed Skaters"!? :laugh2:


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#3 MSwiss

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:48 PM

Does the arm have the shaft sticking out of one end of motor or both?


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Mike Swiss
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#4 havlicek

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:24 PM

Does the arm have the shaft sticking out of one end of motor or both?

 

Hi Mike,

 

     I'm not sure which motor (the original newer Mabuchi or the 36D) you mean, but the original had the shaft out the "can" end (it has no real endbell...it's a tube with a flush metal cap at the brush end like a large round Falcon).  The 36D I made has the arm shaft out the endbell.

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#5 MSwiss

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:33 PM

Thanks.
I was just hoping it had a shaft coming out of both ends.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA™ Components Committee Chairman
Eight-time G7 King track single lap World Record holder
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
 
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com  (also my PayPal address)
 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#6 havlicek

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:50 PM

Hi Mike,

 

     Those are probably "out there" somewhere.  It seems about every type is if you get lucky enough to find them.  Why are you looking for a double-shafted 5 pole 36D?  This is the original RS360:
NewRS360_zpsd5d3c315.jpg

 

Here's the shortened, rewound arm (done as end bell drive...of course the shaft can be worked either way):

5PoleFT36DArm_zps5bbdf614.jpg

 

...and in it's new ("old") home as a 5-pole FT36D:

 

5poleFT36D_zpsc086ad60.jpg

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#7 zipper

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:32 PM

Just like what is inside my old Mini-Drill.


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#8 gluebomb

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:23 PM

Great idea for a thread.
I recently found some nice GE motors posted up on that auction site; not the "visually similar" toothbrush motors that turn up once in a while, these have a rather brittle seeming black plastic endbell section instead, are a bit longer than the Dynamic motor, and are rated by the seller at 3V. I fired one up and it screamed at 12 volts. Yet to run one in a car but do seem promising.
Slightly weird in that the brushes appear non replaceable - they're sprung and shunted just like the Dynamic GE motor but the "endbell" isn't very user friendly, ie I popped one off and couldn't get it back on again with the brushes in place.  The shaft is a bit short and has a large flat also...
Still, nice fat wire on the arm, a decent looking com, and those strong skinny magnets - all for a whopping $2.25 a piece.

Plenty more up there just search:

3 VDC "ALMOST ANTIQUE" MOTOR #309


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#9 idare2bdul

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:47 AM

When Revtech switched from Slots to RC they took one of their modified motors and added extra batteries to a Dustbuster, it was impressive.

 

John continues to find new projects and be creative in how he attacks them. Looking forward to the next one.


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#10 havlicek

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:13 AM

There is also a way to know what these Mabuchis are from the code/part number.  Magnet type, number of poles, case length, brush type yada yada yada are all described by the number.  It can be difficult to impossible to tell just from looking at the pictures.  I have the document around here somewhere.

 

-john


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#11 Champion 507

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:23 PM

John,

 

About 2 to 3 years ago I found 7 similar motors at a local electronics surplus store. They weren't Mabuchis but they were the same dimensions as what you have here but they were 3 pole arms and made in China. All that's needed to install the magnets in a 36D is to just take the top and bottom edges off the magnets with a diamond wheel in a Dremel and they drop right in. The arm resembles a larger version of a S16D arm, nice modern comm and all.

 

I think they cost me about $6.50 apiece. I felt it was a good deal. $6.50 for a hop up "kit" that included a modern arm and 2 fresh magnets (modern day version of a Champion kit) sounded good to me.

 

I haven't checked the magnets with the little gauss meter that I got here on Slotblog a few months back, but like you John, I suspect they're as good or better than a vintage set of Arcos.


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#12 Mike Patterson

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

That shore is a purdy arm. :D


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#13 havlicek

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:21 PM

Hi Doug,

 

     Yes, I have motors in the three basic sizes (16D, 26D, 36D) all with magnets that are either a direct fit or will fit with a bit of work.  I also have some  Johnsons with better-than-Arco magnets, excellent arms and coms in a weird can size that can be made to fit VERY snug into a 26D.  The arms are the same diameter as a Mabuchi FT26D, so cutting off the can sides to use as shims in the Mabuchi 36D can makes for a neat setup.  There are all kinds of these things out there and they usually run somewhere around $2-$5 a pop...sometimes a bit higher.  They make an excellent source for parts.

 

 

 

That shore is a purdy arm.  :D

 

     Thanks Mike :)  Tough to keep things neat with the 5 poles and this sort of winding pattern.  I have a second 5-pole wound with a pattern I've been wanting to try that just needs finishing...we'll see if that one runs or just sits there and burns :D  The problem I have with these 5-pole arms is that, even when shortened to fit, they are heavy things with a lot of steel.  Those kinds of arm will tend to spin up a bit slower and wind down longer.

 

-john 


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#14 Champion 507

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:13 AM

John,

 

What was it, back in the late 60s some motor builders were experimenting by putting rewound 26D arms in 16D set-ups? Hold on to that thought and I'll proceed to the next step.

 

The modern manufacturer, Kelly, makes nice magnets for their modern 16D motors, but they are actually thinner than a current Parma EPX magnet. So if you put a set of Kelly's in a Parma can, you've got quite a large air gap, maybe as much as .040" per side.

 

With that in mind, I started thinking :crazy: :shok: :dash2: :sarcastic_hand:  (that's a scary thought). Maybe if I stuck a set of Kelly's in a vintage Mabuchi 16D can, would a 26D arm fit? Well, I got one that does! I'll need to wind it and change out the arm shaft in it because the 26D shaft is just a bit short. Can't wait to build it and see what happens.


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#15 havlicek

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:47 AM

That's not surprising Doug.  EPX magnets in a 16D can will allow a modern .560" arm easily.

 

-john


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#16 Bill from NH

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:05 AM

Doug, compare your Kelly magnets to those from the Proslot Speed FX. I'm speculating they're the same thing. If they're different, especially the tips, you probably have Red Fox magnets from Brazil. Kelly has had both in the past.

 

John, modern 16D magnets normally will provide about a .485" hole in a 16D can. Arm dia. could be adjusted from there to provide the desired air gap.


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#17 havlicek

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:53 AM

Doug, compare your Kelly magnets to those from the Proslot Speed FX. I'm speculating they're the same thing. If they're different, especially the tips, you probably have Red Fox magnets from Brazil. Kelly has had both in the past.

 

John, modern 16D magnets normally will provide about a .485" hole in a 16D can. Arm dia. could be adjusted from there to provide the desired air gap.

Hi Bill,

 

    Hmmm, I've vbeen putting large diameter arms ( .560"?) in the things and they've been a lovely fit, with all the benefits of the much higher gauss and probably a better tip shape.  

 

More on the above 5 pole stuff.  I did a second 5 pole arm for the FT36D setup I built to test these things.  My idea was that, if you look at the arm as a "total system" rather than a group of separate electromagnets spinning in a field, it should take a lot less wire per pole on a 5 pole arm to get near the same result as a 3 pole arm (with the same setup).  Keeping that in mind and also that each pole spends a lot less time energized in a 5 pole system than a 3 pole system, I did a conventional wind.  The wind would be way too hot for a 3 pole 36D arm, but I figured it might just work out on a 5 pole arm...and get the benefit of extra inherent smoothness that the 5 poles are known for...lots of torque, but a less jerky torque curve.  Blah blah blah, so I wound a 5 pole using the "normal" pattern I would use on a 3 pole, but with a lot less wire-per-pole (sorry about the blurry picture):

SANY0003-9_zps24119227.jpg

 

...the result is indeed a VERY smooth-running arm with loads of revs and much better natural braking than the first one I wound using the pattern most often found on 5 poles.  Surprisingly ...or well...at least in so far as any of my "theories" actually work out, the motor runs cool and draws about 1.3 amps.  As break-in continues, I naturally expect that current draw to go down.  This has been a really satisfying little trip into "what-if?" land, and the resulting FT36D is a pretty unique thing now.  Winding these arms is a little bit more fiddly because of the very narrow gap between poles (as well as just having 2/3 more poles to wind), and welding the com tabs requires some more care as well, but it really wasn't THAT bad.  Success!

 

-john


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#18 havlicek

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

Last update on the above arm.  The motor (after about 5 minutes more break-in) is now drawing between .8 ohm and 1 ohm.  It will possibly settle down even a bit more, but it's impressive (to me anyway) how cool, fast and smooth the thing runs.  My "lo-tech" torque test :) (ie: trying to slow the arm down with my finger while it's running) seems to indicate that there's a good amount of power (not just RPMs) here as well.  I can easily imagine doing a hotter wind and using stronger magnets, but for the motor to be as efficient as it is and not even worry about the stock auto-melt  Mabuchi end bell is a pretty neat thing.  It seems there are still many many many things for me to learn and mostly, I stumble into them by just "doing stuff".

 

-john


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#19 Phil Irvin

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

Best of luck....Maybe you can start something new with the 5 pole motors... :D  We havent had any really NEW hi speed motor restyls in how long?????

 

           OLPHRT

           PHIL I.


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#20 havlicek

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

Best of luck....Maybe you can start something new with the 5 pole motors... :D  We havent had any really NEW hi speed motor restyls in how long?????

 

           OLPHRT

           PHIL I.

Hi Phil,

 

     I doubt I'll be starting anything.  I can "afford" to waste time and effort doing things that the real manufacturers either can't or won't...maybe because some of these things wouldn't be particularly useful for them.  I don't know that machine winding for example could accomodate double-winds (?maybe???). I can see that 5 pole arms (especially small ones) would probably be a huge PITA because of the number of poles as well as the narrow gaps between the poles.  For sure, companies are doing them...there are some really pretty (and small too!) 5 pole arms being done for the model railroading industry with some motors looking very much like modern strap motors, some even with neo and cobalt magnets.  If I could score a few of those to tear apart and do some winds closer to what would be appropriate for slots, that would be interesting.  Probably not trend-setting, but interesting nonetheless! :)

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#21 havlicek

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:46 AM

So over the last week or two, I've restocked plenty of 36D sized arms (both 5 and three pole) and some 26D sized arms (three pole) all from modern motors...and all came with strong ceramic magnets also use-able for rebuilding classic Mabuchis.  I've also got some 5 pole 16D size (2mm shafts on approx. .510" diameter arms) ones coming.  These were all cheap-as-chips and came in new/unused condition...usually around $3-$5 for a complete motor.  If you're looking to do up some classic motors, don't let any apparent scarcity of vintage parts dissuade you...the stuff is out there if you get a little creative.

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#22 havlicek

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

...and while I'm giving away secrets, I took apart a modern Mabuchi with 26D sized arm and magnets today, the magnets measured 1200 on my meter.  By comparison, Arcos measure around 1000.  Something to consider :)

 

-john


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