11 replies to this topic

[Gary Bluestone]

    I'm looking for the best # of turns using 28 wire for vintage 16d endbell motors (FT16). I just tried 60 turns of # 30 on a Johnson motor but it doesn't appear to be too earth shattering. I'm using these style motors in the Monogram Stocker chassis, as was used on the Vintage Duesenburg.

   I was using a chrome plated can , probably Cox, in a similar Mercedes 540K , until the white (derlin) commutator melted. I stripped it down and found 121 turns of # 34 wire. I found a green com from another arm and again would like to rewind it with #28 , hoping this com is better. It ran super before .

  Next , I found a Testors Mark III can , cast endbell and brushes, and would like to fit a bell drive arm with a good com , to use this Pittman style setup. Again with a suitable # of turns of  28 wire.

  I just rebuilt a Champion Orangepicker but upon completion I discovered none of my brush springs will fit over the post protectors so I used an awl and opened up a suitable pair. Question is what can I make brush springs from ? In the past I have used old (steel) guitar strings to make other springs,  but most of the brush springs I have seen are a type of  copper ?

 One more question, I would like to try to remagnetize a round motor made by Wilson's  of Cleveland but I am not getting much of a reading using a compass. Anyone have any experiece with these before I go and tear apart a NOS motor ?  Here are some photos of the Wilson motor used to power the Chysler Turbine car ( I thought a fitting tribute) Gb

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[havlicek]

    I'm looking for the best # of turns using 28 wire for vintage 16d endbell motors (FT16). I just tried 60 turns of # 30 on a Johnson motor but it doesn't appear to be too earth shattering. I'm using these style motors in the Monogram Stocker chassis, as was used on the Vintage Duesenburg.

The motor is not going to play well with a rewound arm that's fairly hot using the stock magnets.  A jump from #30 wire to #28 wire is a big jump with those magnets, and the motor might run warm (ie: HOT) with #28 wire unless you upgrade the magnets.  I go with 65 turns of #30, 55 turns of #29 with those magnets and no hotter.  The spring tension will make a BIG difference.  Using the stock springs will hamper performance, and modern springs (most anyway) should fit the small (FT16D size) motors.  New springs will give your motor a nice shot in the arm.  If you're going to go with a rewind, a magnet upgrade and new springs will help things a LOT.  You may just find that your 60T/30 wind is a lot stronger than you thought.  Lastly, if you can't get new magnets, shim the existing magnets as tight as you can without them touching the arm.

 

***Oh yeah, the stock com will likely be the next weak point if you get the above sorted.  They can blow super-easily.

***If you get past all of this, then balance will be the next hurdle.  As the arms get faster, imbalance causes greater and greater problems...faster wear on the bushings, arcing at the com (limiting revs and causing extra heat)

 

   I was using a chrome plated can , probably Cox, in a similar Mercedes 540K , until the white (derlin) commutator melted. I stripped it down and found 121 turns of # 34 wire. I found a green com from another arm and again would like to rewind it with #28 , hoping this com is better. It ran super before .

 

I would again use #30 wire (maybe #29 if you don't care too much about longevity).  If you're dead-set on #28 wire, try somewhere around 40 turns, but it's not really a good idea.

 

  I just rebuilt a Champion Orangepicker but upon completion I discovered none of my brush springs will fit over the post protectors so I used an awl and opened up a suitable pair. Question is what can I make brush springs from ? In the past I have used old (steel) guitar strings to make other springs,  but most of the brush springs I have seen are a type of  copper ?

  I use .014"-.015" stainless steel guitar strings and go with either 3 or 4 coils.  The old copper springs lose their tension and barely offer enough force to keep the brushes in contact with the com...often greatly limiting revs.  The conductivity of the springs isn't really an issue, and most modern springs have been made of steel for a long time already.  When you wind them, try and use a mandrel that is slightly smaller in diameter than the spring posts because, as the spring relaxes when you take it off the mandrel, it will slightly increase in diameter.  When you cut the springs to length, try and get the short arm of the spring long enough to go fully across the brush hardware without being so long as to "hang up" on the other side.

 

 One more question, I would like to try to remagnetize a round motor made by Wilson's  of Cleveland but I am not getting much of a reading using a compass. Anyone have any experiece with these before I go and tear apart a NOS motor ?  Here are some photos of the Wilson motor used to power the Chysler Turbine car ( I thought a fitting tribute) Gb

Try asking Rick Thigpen here ("DC65X").  He's got a mambo-sized military-grade zapper and a LOT of familiarity with the vintage motors.  

 

-john

[Gator Bob]

I put an NOS late 80s, early 90s  low timed (stock), green wire production Mura Super Wasp in a Johnson. It ran great and very smooth. Not for racing on a commercial track, only ran it about 5 laps at a time. Thinking it would be an outstanding set-up for home set use... more then enough power. 

Cut the shaft or change the closed bushing, I used the bushing (steel over oilite) from an 80s Parma D can, works great ... but ... the EBD side shaft was a little on the short side. It took a press-on pinion no problem, no wobble. Check that the Kirkwood comm. clears the (nice) Johnson hardware. 

 

 

just sayin...  

 

 

BTW ... Gary, The Wilson/Turbine car is KOOL!

[havlicek]

I forgot to add that, with light tension springs (such as the really light tension old ones), how true the com is makes a big difference.  "Brush bounce" becomes more significant with light tension springs.  There isn't much material on the stock coms, so truing them is to be done with extra caution.  What I'm getting at here is that EVERYTHING needs to be looked at when rewinding those old Mabuchis and similar (Johnson).  Not only will the motor last longer, but performance will jump significantly as you address each item.... magnets, springs, com truing, air gap, brushes, balance, centering the arm in the field, reducing end play etc.

 

-john

[Gary Bluestone]

Thanks for all the help. Strange as it seems , we do get to run these cars on a commercial track with a 40 ft. straight into a 17 ft. banked curve. I had a chance to run the Johnson there , and maybe the arm was bouncing due to imbalance at the end of the straight, or maybe the brushes were bouncing too. I also thought maybe more turns was necessary since my favorite wind on a vintage 36d is 75 turns of #29. Anyway I will try your suggestions and see what works.

[havlicek]

One more thing.  A lot of the old motors need to have the brush hardware checked to be sure the brushes are not hanging up.  The brushes should either move through the hardware with no force or even just fall right through.  If they are getting hung up even a little, the brush can slowly wear so it's only partially contacting the com causing arcing.  This is even worse than the brush not contacting the com at all, which would simply make the motor inoperable.  That arcing can ruin the com and the brush and cause excess heat.

 

If there's a problem, use a very small "detail" file (these are available cheap in sets) to carefully open up the inside of the hardware just enough for the brush to slide easily.  You don't want to go too far, as a smooth-but-tight fit will be much better for the brushes and the com.  **This is much better than sanding or filing the brushes down and, once any burrs are removed, you should have less problems with any brush changes in the future.

 

-john

[Phil Irvin]

Back in the 60s. I had a UNIMT lathe and learned REAL quick to take thin cuts on the comms. Those old comms were ALL out of round and almost worthless for more than medium hot motors. It wasn't till the first good ones from MURA, I think, came along that we were able to really use 29 wire. I always used an old arm and wraped 1 turn of electrical tape around it and enlarged the can bushing hole and then soldered the bushing in after using epoxy to mount the magnets in the can.  Then came the Kirkwood comms. Then the ARCOs.........  YAHOO.......Then the track closed and I had a 25 year rest.....bummer

 

          OLPHRT

           PHIL I.

[dc-65x]

............One more question, I would like to try to remagnetize a round motor made by Wilson's of Cleveland but I am not getting much of a reading using a compass. Anyone have any experiece with these before I go and tear apart a NOS motor ? Here are some photos of the Wilson motor used to power the Chysler Turbine car ( I thought a fitting tribute) Gb

 

Hi Gary,

 

Here's a thread on "hopping up" a Globe motor.
 
 Wilson 890 Golden Screamer
 

I reread the Wilson data sheet for the motors and the replacement arms and both state, "NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT REMAGNETIZING. THIS IS A PERMANENT MAGNET."

 

However, I just checked a new Wilson 876-13 motor using the probe on my Wrightway gauss meter. I did this on the outside of the can and got absolutely NO reading. I did the same on a later, "hotter" version Wilson "Wildcat" #900 Mark II. I got a reading of about 40 with the shift from + to - happening at the end plate mounting screw locations on the can.

 

Steve Okeefe taught me there are two common types of ceramic magnets (you can Google this stuff and find out what they're called). One type as used in ARCO and Versatec magnets can be rezapped and I've always had great results with them and all the old "Iron" magnet Pittmans, Kemtrons, etc.

 

The other type like French-Tradeship and Pittman 6001 would have to be rezapped EXACTLY the same as when they were manufactured or you will do no good at all or actually make them weaker. I've had no luck with them at all. They've always gotten weaker.

 

I know you won't get much of a gauss reading on the outside of the can but I've never had a ZERO reading like I got on that 876-13! So, what up with the Wilson? I'm going to "mess" with my Wilson 876-13 motor and I'll post the results here.

[dc-65x]

OK Gary here what I found out.

 

My motor feels like yours when you spin it by hand. Very smooth with next to no "ratched" feel to the magnets.

 

It buzzed up nicely on the power supply.

 

I took the arm out of the motor and checked with the gauss meter prob against the magnets. I got a gauss reading of approx. 450 which isn't too bad for a 50 year old design.

 

I put in the appropriate sized magnet zapping slug and gave her a good zap. All I managed to accomplish is reverse the polarity of the magnets. I boo boo'd and put the can in backwards. Now the side that was +450 is -450....oops! Anywho that shows the magnets sure did get zapped but they are still the same strength of 450.

 

I put the motor back together and she still buzzed up nicely.

 

On this one motor, no zapping seems required or helpful. I say put your car on the track and have some fun!

 

 

 

 

[Gary Bluestone]

Wow ! Thankyou so much for your research. I guess you are probably the only person in the world to find out the answer to this mystery. The car usually gets a laugh when I take it out so I guess it will just be a piece of vintage slot car history. Here's a link to another historic piece I built a few years ago.
http://slotblog.net/...son#entry211225

[Gary Bluestone]

Recently I got a chance to drive the turbine on a home set track. It was pretty fast , but had NO brakes. This might be OK on a big commercial track, but not too compeditive on a smaller track.

[dc-65x]

Hi Gary,

 

I haven't tried the early model Wilson's like the one in your car but I suspect mine would have no brakes like yours.     Don't give up on Wilson's though. Keep your eyes open for one of the later version like the Screamer.....the round motors without the "ears" on the end plates. The magnets are stronger and the armature winds are hotter..........MORE POWER!

 

Rick