26 replies to this topic

[Steve Okeefe]

Mabuchi FT-16DBB Spotter's Guide

 

 

[Gator Bob]

Double BB - can and end bell

 

[Gator Bob]

BTW: The motor above is a double end shaft, drill balanced, looks like 27 or 28 wire, there is a piece of tape on the can marked "20B"... hand written, and the price is marked $12.95.

 

The staple has never been removed.

 

Has anyone ever seen one of these ???

 

Bob Rule, please explain !!!

[TSR]

Steve,

As far as I know and learned over the years, the Champion "507-R" never used the "oval-hole" Mabuchi can, and there are a few missing examples that you might want to add:
 

1/ The Dynamic rewind used in the late versions of the Super Bandit, please see here: http://lascm.com/Slo...roducts_id=6419
 

2/ The Mura Magnum motors had many forms, but always with nickel plated can and mostly white endbell, sometimes that endbell being a Mura and not a Mabuchi. Some even had a dark-gray Mura endell and the same magnet shim ("can in a can") used in the Mura Magnum 1000 series.
 

3/ The black Champion "5008", with its can painted in black and a black endbell.

I will rake my damaged brain cells to try figuring out if there are some more I forgot...

[Hworth08]

That motor might be based on a 16 sized motor that Mabuchi produced after the 16DBB. The Mabuchi version had an endbell that was thicker and the brushes are a unique size. That motor had a steel bushing in the can, not a ball bearing.

Twinn-K used a lot of them in their 1/32nd scale anglewinder. The oval hole on those cans are a tad shorter and wider that the earlier 16DBB.

The motor may have been a 160, I can't recall for sure.

[TSR]

Don,

you are correct, the motor shown by Bob has nothing in common with the 1960s FT16D and is based on entirely new tooling. It does not belong to the same "vintage" albums as created by Steve IMO, because it is a "post classic-era" motor. I think that its was indeed called "160" in the line, to be in sync with the larger "270" evolution version of the FT26 motor.

Champion marketed those with their sticker on it from 1972 through 1974.

 

Going back to the FT16DBB, there are "standard" versions and "short" versions. The short ones were used only by Mura and Dyna-Rewind. Below is a pic showing a standard and short motor:

 

 

 

Regarding the "507-R", this motor was born in 1967 but no longer used the "blue", ex-Hawk FT17D cans and parts. Instead it used a specific can specially made by Mabuchi for Champion, using the same basic FT16 can but with a smaller can bearing made of sintered bronze, affixed to the can. The "507-R" meant "reverse", meaning the armature shaft had its pinion on the endbell side, making assembly to either a Russkit or Champion inline bracket easier, because this is what the "pros" wanted. At the same time, the can-side drive, standard "507" were still being produced, but the original Mabuchi cans with the large bearing housing had been stripped of all paint, their inner gimbal bearing removed, and the can had been nickel plated. A Mabuchi FT26 ball bearing retained by a Champion nylon ring held it in place. Here is a regular "507" can-side drive, next to a genuine 507-R can. Please note that the 507-R can showed here has an endbell fitted with later cooling brass "ears" first seen on the "525" motors, so not really correct for this can.

Both had a new Cycolac endbell that will be used on the 507, 517 and through the 525. It will no longer used after, the 535 getting a whole new endbell, unfortunately, too briefly. Here is the standard "507" series 2:
 

 

And the "507-R" can next to it:

 

 

 

 

Please note that the 507-R can showed here has an endbell fitted with later cooling brass "ears" first seen on the "525" motors, so not really correct for this can. No, I am not trying to confuse you! 

 

Last, I said in a post above that Mura used their own endbell in some of their Magnum motors, using the FT16DBB can, and here is an example:

 

 

 

 

This was done of course to liquidate what was left of these motors. Please note that these motors used special brush holders to use the remaining 16D smaller brushes at a time when the 36D brushes had taken over the business... The armature is still the same silver-wound job, these were done in Japan, then balanced by Freddy Foyn's crew at Tradeship and then shipped to Mura.

[TSR]

And...

a genuine 507-R in a genuine Champion Ferrari RTR model:

 

 

Please note that the motor had holes to add mounting screws but I have not see a genuine example with such screws yet, Champion apparently used the can's ears to lock the endbell. The can was also sold separately so it is in fact relatively easy to make a motor up using the can, a set of Arco mags wit their nickel plated shim, a standard 507 EBD armature and a Cycolac endbell with the nickel plated hardware and springs.

[Hworth08]

So many changes! And a lot of what comes from ebay has been mixed again by a previous competitor.

Thanks Dokk.

[TSR]

Don, this is one of the most difficult tasks for a collector; separate what is real from what is not. Of course, everything is "real", but the mix of parts denies the originality of a product... hence confusion, which I am doing my best as well as Steve is, to deconfuse!

Skepticism is important here, and any claim of originality must be backed by solid evidence to make sure. For some companies, it is dead simple. For some others, not so much! 

An example of how things can seem unreal and in this case, are:

 

 

And yes, that thing also came with the older version of the 507, but both BEFORE and AFTER Champion ran out of their later motor!

Champion was with Mura, the king of recycling!

[Steve Okeefe]

Philippe,

 

Good info...  (Hey Joe, I just found another box of blue FT-16D cans way in the back of the store-room under the taper-lock wheels!  Finish up with those nickel plated cans and we'll do another batch of blue ones.  Give them all the same part number, that'll confuse 'em good!)

 

Drawing updates to follow.

 

Thanks!

[Gator Bob]

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[TSR]

Bob,

the 5001 or 5001-B have nothing to do with the motor you show apart. They have a different can, magnets, endbell AND armature. The ONLY common parts are the brushes and the can-bearing housing.

The Mabuchi 160 is simply not a 1960s motor, and was never used in a "classic era" kit or RTR. So frankly I do not believe that it should be featured in Steve's listing.

The 5001 and 5001-B on the contrary, ARE mabuchi FT16D motors and absolutely should be there.

[Gator Bob]

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[TSR]

Bob, what are you saying, that the two motors are the same? 

[Gator Bob]

Bob,

the 5001 or 5001-B have nothing to do with the motor you show apart. They have a different can, magnets, endbell AND armature.

Correct.

The ONLY common parts are the brushes and the can-bearing housing.

False  

The Mabuchi 160 is simply not a 1960s motor, and was never used in a "classic era" kit or RTR. So frankly I do not believe that it should be featured in Steve's listing.

 

The 5001 and 5001-B on the contrary, ARE mabuchi FT16D motors and absolutely should be there.

Not true.

The 5001B has 16D size brushes and an aluminum bearing carrier, the 16DBB has 36D size brushes and a brass/bronze carrier.

 

Points:

What IS "The Classic Era" ???  Please provide a date! 

 

I have never seen a 507-R with the cooling hole/inspection hole in the plastic as OEM.

I have never seen a 507-R with the large plain oilite can bushing you show in the picture above -

http://slotblog.net/...-1379969261.jpg

Possible ... but .... Like you say .. to believe it must be seen in a seal factory package.

 

IIRC you, not Scott was selling the gold iridite (Zinc Dichromate) can motors as a Mabuchi 16D Ball Bearing (BB) with a turned down shaft before you sold out to the Museum.

 

The 5001 and 5001B Thumper and the later 5008 Thumper have armatures that are totally different. Blank, wire, comm, shaft .....

[TSR]

What IS "The Classic Era" ???  Please provide a date!

 

Bob,

Anything between 1957 and 1970 is considered as the Classic Era.

 

The 5001B has 16D size brushes and an aluminum bearing carrier, the 16DBB has 36D size brushes and a brass/bronze carrier.

The 5001 are basically stock Mabuchi FT16DBB with special features requested by Champion, but were made from the same tooling as a regular FT16DBB. What are you calling a "16DBB", the gold motor? If so I have not looked at one in years so it is possible that it has larger brushes.

 

I have never seen a 507-R with the cooling hole/inspection hole in the plastic as OEM.

 

 I guess you did now. That car is NOS, and was never used and we took it out of its box for the pictures. 

The Cycolac endbell mold was changed to have those vent holes sometimes in 1967, we have some with and some without.
 

 

I have never seen a 507-R with the large plain can bushing you show in the picture above

 

Now you have seen one. Here is another, used:

 

 

 

And another:

 

 

it is also possible that Champion may have issues "R" versions with that can.

 

Here are the two types of "R" cans used with the EBD 507 armatures:

 

 

IIRC you, not Scott was selling the gold iridite (Zinc Dichromate) can motors as a Mabuchi 16D Ball Bearing (BB) with a turned down shaft before you sold out to the Museum.

 

Actually, no, we (Electric Dreams before the company was sold) sold some of the gold motors as "16D-size motors" and we never even mentioned "ball bearings" when we did, for a very good reason: I had never opened one to see what's inside at the time...
 

[Gator Bob]

The time frame seems to be a moving target .... like when you refer to your steel 1973-74 pro cars.

 

You said above: The Cycolac endbell mold was changed to have those vent holes sometimes in 1967,

 

 

This is a cut sheet out of the 1968 catalog. No molded vertical vent/inspection hole but it is called the "New" 507-1BB endbell.

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[Hworth08]

The Celcon end bell with the inspection hole is easy to verify. They have Champion molded in the area where the bearing fits.

Also that area is enlarged and several frames were met their end when a person tried to drill the motor bracket larger to receive the end bell.

[TSR]

This is a cut sheet out of the 1968 catalog.

No, Bob, this is a page from the 1967 catalog, reprinted in the 1968 issue. Do you think that Ray Gardner, the graphic artist there, is going to modify a drawing just to make you happy? 

 

The Celcon end bell with the inspection hole is easy to verify. They have Champion molded in the area where the bearing fits.

 

The main visual difference between the Mabuchi and the Champion endbell, besides the markings, is that the Champion has a much larger bearing housing to fit either the Mabuchi FT26 ball bearing or the Champion bronze bushing of the same size.

Champion dropped the Mabuchi endbell for the second series "507" motors, the ones with the nickel plated cans. The Celcon endbell had been available separately since sometimes in 1967, without the vent holes molded in them. When the "Team" began drilling the bell for better cooling, the mold was modified and once that was done, all the subsequent motors built in Chamblee received it. But there were many motor kits already out there, some with the nickel plated can, with the Celcon bell without the hole. Since one could purchase pretty much all the parts separately, it was not that difficult to put together a motor that today, may confuse some because of its sum of parts.

The 1967 catalog shows the Ferrari F1 RTR model, with the "507-R" motor . If one looks carefully, the chassis shown is fitted with an older 507 motor with the blue can, Mabuchi endbell and the metal-foil sticker, just like the car in post # 9.

We have several examples of this Ferrari at the LASCM, boxed and loose, and a few have the blue motor, the others have the nickel plated can and the Cycolac endbell, and all have the cooling hole. Does it mean that ALL the RTR Ferraris with the nickel plated can had the endbell with the cooling hole? Likely not. Champion was a moving target of a company, changing specs weekly as technology evolved so quickly.

As Bob said, proof is in the pudding and we have ample proof that this is how it happened.
 

 

The time frame seems to be a moving target .... like when you refer to your steel 1973-74 pro cars.

 

Bob, there WAS life after the collapse of the hobby. Does it mean that I consider post-1970 cars part of the classic era? Absolutely not. In fact I personally in the camp of those who think that when the bodies of the pro-racing cars became unrecognizable as "models" of real cars, they are no longer "slot cars" but "slot machines". Nothing wrong with that, but outside of my personal area of interest and that of the LASCM.

The Classic Era for us, begins in the mid 1950s with the rail-racing cars, reaches its peak in 1967, tapers down in 1968 and dies by the end of 1969.
Anything past the end of 1969 is of course of great interest to us, but to a much lesser extent than earlier years.

Does it mean that everything built from 1970 onwards is not good? Of course not, but it is  a whole different era in different circumstances, a return to a very limited area of interest for the vast majority of vintage slot car enthusiasts.

[TSR]

More info on Mabuchi based Champion motors:

 

"16D" Celcon endbells.

Turns out that there are three different items there, all looking the same until careful inspection.

 

1/ Original molding: no vent holes, small armature-shaft hole.

2/ Second generation: molded vent holes, small armature-shaft hole.

3/ Third generation: molded vent holes, enlarged armature-shaft hole.

 

This picture shows the most commonly found of those endbells, with the molded vent holes:

 

Difference between earlier and later molding:

 

 

Three generations of the Celcon endbells:

 

 

 

Funny 517, not in any catalog...
Champion changed their product as often as most civilized people change their shirt. Here is an example of a product that was first offered without the extra heat sinks on its endbell, and one that has one of the first drill-balanced Champion arms, in other words a transitional model between the "chrome can" and the "black can":

 

 

 

Back to the 507-R

Here is an assembly of parts form a 507-R motor kit, put together, showing the special Mabuchi can with the smaller bearing and the endbell with the vent hole. It is fitted with a factory wound 507 armature (not the blank in the kit) of which stack is shorter than usual, something that I need to research as it is not standard. However the origin of this arm may explain that this is a "works" arm, from the "Team".

 

 

 

 

[Gator Bob]

One more slight variation.

Small armature shaft hole, molded vent / inspection hole, soldered roof, no plates, nickel hardware.

 

 

 

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[TSR]

Variations by the day are the life story of the Champion of Chamblee company. More interestingly, the endbells you show are using recycled Mabuchi lead wires, likely from the tons of K&B and other FT36D motors Champion acquired from companies precipitously leaving the hobby in 1967-1968, for a few cents on the dollar.

Champion marketed these motors in bits and pieces from their 1967 catalog all the way through the mid-1970s...

[Gator Bob]

Jim then Bob, the staff and the teams being innovative, clever and resourceful kept them alive.

[havlicek]

That motor might be based on a 16 sized motor that Mabuchi produced after the 16DBB. The Mabuchi version had an endbell that was thicker and the brushes are a unique size. That motor had a steel bushing in the can, not a ball bearing.

Twinn-K used a lot of them in their 1/32nd scale anglewinder. The oval hole on those cans are a tad shorter and wider that the earlier 16DBB.

The motor may have been a 160, I can't recall for sure.

 

The Mabuchi "160" that was produced in Hong Kong (*I call them "Hong Kong Mabuchis) had a lot of subtle and also not-so-subtle differences from the Japanese FT16D that I've gone over in other threads.  I just want to clear up one thing here, there were (at least) two variants.  They look identical on the outside (thick can metal with a gold zinc plating and what looks like the traditional large Mabuchi rotating bushing carrier on the can end) with either a tan/natural colored end bell or a black one, but they came with either a fixed sintered metal bushing in the can OR a ball bearing.  The ball bearing was of the same type as seen in the older Mabuchi FT16D and 26D motors, NOT a modern precision sealed or open bearing.  The sintered metal bushing had at least some iron content as it is magnetic...probably for longer wear than typical brass oilites, but such bushings can be harder on shafts.

The 160 will sometimes come up on eBay, and they are great for casual running when a period motor isn't available and they are also a good source for parts as many/most/all are a direct fit on the older Japanese Mabuchis.  Surprisingly, the magnets seem to be of the same type as the older Mabuchi magnets, and only offer (at best) a slight improvement in strength.  The brushes are a slightly different size than the FT16D ones, I *think* they may be the size of the 26D brushes but maybe not.  The cans are produced from MUCH thicker metal, but still of the same one-piece "drawn" type construction.  The end bells are of a significantly better material that is very good as far as heat tolerance and strength, having a bearing/bushing pocket sized to fit the Mabuchi/Champion type bearings or bushings (*somewhere near .250" instead of the much smaller earlier Mabuchi bushings).  The armatures in these motors use the same type com as is found on many inexpensive Chinese motors today, and the com connections are made by a folded-up tab that is resistance welded.  The tail spacer is a press fit brass ring, and the stacks are powder coated, having the same thick lamination type as in earlier Japanese Mabuchis with either the same or a very close to the same profile.  I was confused by these motors when I first got a few, but when you open them up, they are very different.

 

-john

[edscars]

Thought I'd reopen this thread to see if anyone can identify these two motors with their FT designations and Champion or Cox part numbers. The endbell of the motor on the left is marked Champion, and the endbell on the right is just marked FT-16D made in Japan.  The motor on the left has what might be a ball bearing sleeve on the can side, not sure, and the endbell armature hole looks a bit too big for the shaft, so perhaps the endbell overheated. The motor on the right has the brass bearing part marked Cox made in Hong Kong. Thanks for any help.

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