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Cukras 1967 Jail Door Ferrari


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#1 Pablo

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:57 AM

I've built several clones of this famous car, improving them as I go.  This one will be the best I've ever built.

 

Riggen wheels, 7/8 OD front and rear.

DSC06986.JPG

 

Body: Ferrari P4 by Outisight.

DSC06988.JPG

 

Motor: Early Mura closed bushing can, Tradeship endbell. Modern Mura Red Dot magnets, Speed FX endbell hardware, Gold Dust brushes, Pro Slot custom made armature .007 lams, .500 stack, modern commutator, 38 degrees of timing CCW at EB side, .517 armature OD, .535 Magnet hole. 

DSC06987.JPG

 

Stickers provided by Don Weaver

DSC06989.JPG

 

This will be a car that can be driven, not just a "shelf queen".

 


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#2 dc-65x

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

Hi Pablo,

 

Looks like a fun build! Thanks for sharing it with us....... :popcorm1:


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#3 Peter Horvath

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

Looks cool already!


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#4 Pablo

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:48 PM

Thanks Rick and Peter :D   

The motor in this car is going to be the biggest challenge. I'm starting the shimming process.  Producing a .535 concentric hole in a 45 year old can using the wrong size magnets is not easy. Not to mention, the shame of possible failure. :laugh2:  I ain't scared :)  One thing I am sure of - no amount of planning nor careful math alone will enable me to shim these Red Dots perfectly in this old can. So, the shimming process will be step by step, I'm going to start by placing a pair of .020 steel shims opposite the side of the notched thingies :) .  Once those dry, I may need to add another set, or maybe a pair of 10 thou shims. Depends on how thick the JB Weld ends up.

 

DSC06996.JPG


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#5 dc-65x

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

I know you're building a replica but one thing that could be done is to replace the junk-O blind bearing with an endbell bearing. It was done back in the day and is period Korrect....but maybe not Cukras Korrect? Anywho, that would let you shim and epoxy the crud out of the magnets and can not worrying so much about alignment. Then Mr. Diamond Hone could would give you that perfect air gap.

 

I know that Mr. Hone isn't period Korrect buy boy does he do a good job :laugh2:


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#6 Pablo

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:52 PM

I love that idea, Rick.  Let me sleep on it. :)

It all depends on how much I want to keep that closed bushing.


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#7 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:10 PM

Many, many moons ago when Team Russkit was using Russkit 23 motors (that had the Junk-O blind bearing), They ALWAYS soldered the bearing to the can to keep it from simply falling off.  :shok:  Check here page 47, photo 9.

 

If you're going to use the blind bearing, may I recommend you take Mike's advice...

 

Rick's advice is not so bad either... :good:



#8 havlicek

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:35 AM

Hi Pablo...spiffy build!  Definitely posilutely absotively 86 that godawful blind bushing.  If you're careful removing it (an oversized round burr or grinding stone will take off the flange on the inside and it'll pop right out), you can stick an end bell bushing in there as it's a nice "snap fit" and then a dab of solder or even epoxy.  The Mabuchi end bell bushings weren't much better though...pretty sloppy.  A can bearing (ream the hole out for a 2x5) is a BIG help with these motors and like Rick said above, it's not like bearings were unheard of back then  :)  Build-on!

 

-john


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#9 Pablo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:31 AM

Seems nobody has any nostalgic love for the closed bushing, so off she comes !

Thanks for the tip on how to remove it, John.

 

Now, on the endbell, it appears if I hog out the hole to 5 mm, there will be nothing left.

Do they make bearings that fit the 3.6 mm standard hole ?

Maybe I should just stick with the stock EB bushing, since this EB is brand new ?

 

Has anybody tried the AVID BB's for motors yet ?

 

Thanks everybody ! :)


Paul Wolcott


#10 SlotStox#53

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:36 AM

Look forward to seeing this come together, sounds an awesome build . Love those Riggen wheels :)

#11 Hworth08

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:43 AM

I can't recall ever seeing a photo of the original chassis with the motor installed. The Car/Model race report showed the frame and Mike Morriessy had a follow-up article showing the frame in some shots but not with the motor.

 

Did the motor return to the Taber Bros. after the race? Couldn't have been illegal, there weren't any illegal parts then. Where'd it go? :)


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#12 havlicek

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:01 AM

Now, on the endbell, it appears if I hog out the hole to 5 mm, there will be nothing left.

Do they make bearings that fit the 3.6 mm standard hole ?

Maybe I should just stick with the stock EB bushing, since this EB is brand new ?

 

Yeah Pablo...a 5mm bearing won't fit.  The only way I could ever figure out how to do that was with a metal bearing strap which makes mounting the motor extra fun! :)  I think the Champion end bell (white) can be convinced to accept a bearing, but from what I remember, the bearing has to be fitted with a sleeve to "snap-fit" into the Champion bushing recess unless you find a bearing with the proper dimensions.  I "think" the Champion end bell uses an approximately 1/4" OD bushing.  Of course, then the motor bracket needs to be reamed out to fit the Champion end bell...the fun never ends!  Anyway, all this is a shame since keeping the commutator end of the motor solid with as little play as possible is pretty important and the bushings in the Tradeship and regular Mabuchi end bells are just "OK" even when new and unworn.

 

-john


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#13 dc-65x

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:08 PM

Hi Pablo,

 

I thought I'd share "my reality" as it relates to building vintage style slot cars today. SKF ball bearings were widely used to "Hop Up" Mabuchi motors in the day. They were 3/16" (.1875") in diameter. Today we have modern bearings that are 5mm (.1968") in diameter. The difference is .009" or about 3 human hairs. As a retired government contractor, I'd say that's definitely "close enough for government work"! :laugh2:

 

As you noted if you open up the endbell for the 5mm bearing you'll have very little material left. As John said a bearing plate is the answer. Ideally it should be JB welded to the endbell by dimpling or roughing up both surfaces to give the epoxy something to bite into. Then tap through the brass plate into the endbell 2-56 you'd likely not have to worry about stripping out the motor mounting hole with a self tapping screw. This usually happens when the motor is finished and being installed in the car for the final time. :dash2:

 

Anywho, there are lots of ways to skin the cat......like just using the stock endbell bearing :dance3: :laugh2:

 

Most important is to have fun :good:

 

 

 

 


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#14 endbelldrive

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:15 PM

...or you could use a can drive can with an endbell drive (Hi Bob!) armature. :pardon:   Like the good Cap'n says, have fun! :yahoo:


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#15 Pablo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

Don, the original car is here:

 

http://www.electricd...r-model-winner/

 

Thanks for the tips, guys, you have inspired me !  I can't really do much until the arm arrives, so I'll play with it and see what I can do.

 

Bob S, you done gone too far now !  :laugh2:


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Paul Wolcott


#16 Mark H

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

gonna be neat Pablo! what are going to do for a body, i think that the one on the original was a one off or really rare.


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#17 Pablo

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:23 PM

I'm glad you asked, Mark.  See post # 1. I will be using an Outisight body that I have used for this type car in the past with great success. It is thin, light, high quality, and can be run like the devil because it is easy to obtain another if damaged in battle :) .

Here is a pic of the last one I built, which is now owned by Oscar Morales:

 

DSC06182.JPG

 

Back to the motor war.  Doggone Fiskars scissors won't even cut 20 thou steel :laugh2:

 

DSC07009.JPG

 


Paul Wolcott


#18 Champion 507

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:13 PM

Pablo, look at it this way. You now have a reamer with a very large handle :sarcastic_hand:


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#19 Mark H

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:30 PM

oops silly me, you did say what body your using :laugh2:


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#20 Hworth08

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:10 PM

 You now have a reamer with a very large handle :sarcastic_hand:

 

Lemons to lemonaide!

 

Whack about an inch off the broken peice. use vice-grips for a handle, turn it backwards from the "sharp side" for a heavy duty hub straightner.


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#21 Bill from NH

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:34 AM

Cut ups! :laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2:


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#22 Don Weaver

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:08 AM

Pablo

 

The stickers originally came from Jairus, I just shared the extra set I got from him with you. 

 

Don Weaver


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#23 Pablo

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

It's good to have friends.

As long as everybody understands some of my cars get sold. :)  Nobody gets hurt


Paul Wolcott


#24 Samiam

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:19 PM

PABLO'S NEXT BUILD:

 

Making a PRO STEEL chassis from a broken pair of scissors.


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#25 Pablo

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

Vertical shimming of the Mabuchi can is, so far, so good. I think I am well spaced top to bottom.

Currently awaiting 10 thou steel shim from Hobbylink.com. to push the mags inward to .535.

Also, ordered a .535 Mag hone from Scott at PCH. I want to ensure the finished airgap is absolutely perfect.

 

As I have said before, "pretty does not live here".  I am looking for mechanical perfection.  If I wanted pretty, I could have just installed a pair of weak old mags that fit with the half oval clips and called it a day. But that is "not me", and "not this car". Here is a pic of the mags and the shims so far. The can bushing will probably go away soon.

 

DSC07017.JPG

 


Paul Wolcott


#26 Pablo

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:37 PM

and a special humor for Samiam:

Steel stock trimming, using the Solunar Tables :laugh2:


Paul Wolcott


#27 havlicek

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:20 AM

Looks pretty to me Pablo :)  Here's an interesting tidbit fer ya.  I recall one time (I think it was Tony) Tony P saying that he used non-magnetic (brass) shims for top/bottom as in this case and regular magnetic (steel) shims to close the airgap.  I may be wrong on this with my fuzzy memory and all, but I believe it had something to do with the idea of "focusing" the magnets' field towards the arm or something.  Now you also have to understand that, in the '60's, I used either aluminum foil or tape (no really!) to shim magnets, so you can't go by what I say! :)

 

-john


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#28 Pablo

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:04 PM

Had I known that trick a few days ago, I might not have broken my scissors on the steel :laugh2:


Paul Wolcott


#29 Bill from NH

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:23 PM

Thin shim stock can be cut using a sharp blade in a utility knife. You might need to make multiple scores.


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#30 Pablo

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:45 PM

Model Master "Guards Red" 4632, backed up with Faswhite.

I don't know why it appears to have an orange tint when I photo it.

The color is a very bright oxygenated red.  On the screen it looks like a sick orange-red.

 

DSC07138.JPG

 

DSC07140.JPG


Paul Wolcott






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