52 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

Quite a while ago, I had posted here on Slotblog about a Mura called the "Green Giant" to see if anyone remembered anything about it. I believe I came up empty, but distinctly remembered those things being hammered around Roy Crawley's track in Farmingdale, and they were stupid-fast and powerful beasts.  

 

I recently got to speak with Peter again after all these years and he filled in the blanks. They were (as I suspected) a hand-wound Bob Green arm and like I said... stupid fast. The thing is, coming around in the '70s after "the crash" and slots were in pretty bad shape... PLUS... they were like $25 (can you imagine???    ), they probably weren't around long or sold very well.

 

They weren't around long and Peter reminded me that they ate a set of brushes in like five minutes... my kind of motor.

 

-john

[Old pink can guy]

John The Mura Pink cans were the it ****. You just pic you arms and look at the Com timing. Never failed me. Won 7 to 8  Races my friend that only ran Steube motors.Lost! 

[SlotStox#53]

They weren't around long and Peter reminded me that they ate a set of brushes in like five minutes... my kind of motor.
 
-john

Now that's a proper slot car motor!

All joking apart, would love to of seen/heard and had a drive of a car with a Mura Green Giant motor in. Never heard of them before but they sound amazing!

[Gary Mayeda]

I think Bob Green is on Slotblog. He would be the one to ask.

 

Gary

[Phil Hackett]

Just checking on one of those "what's a dollar worth" websites: $25.00 in 1970 is roughly equivalent to $145.00 today... they weren't cheap in 1970.

 

Inflation marches on.

[Hworth08]

Yeah, Phil, and today a person can by a RTR Group 12 Wing car for a $125 that is twice as fast as a Green Giant powered car was. Half of that twice is on the straights, the other half in the corners. Technology.

[MSwiss]

Twice as fast? That's almost all because of full side dams and infinitely better tracks, than the speed of the motor.
 
IMO, if you put a Green Giant motor in a modern G12 car, with full side dams, and ran it on a modern track, it would be as fast or faster.
 
BTW, a Pro Slot G12 is $137.50. A Koford is $196.88.

[havlicek]

     While my memory is pretty fuzzy on all this (you know what they say about the '60's and the '70's)    these motors WERE frighteningly fast.  If they weren't "top line" Muras, they were danged close because I remember a couple of racers (real racers...not dabblers like me) who ran them and they just pounded that hillclimb.  With properly set up Faas gears, those cars sounded like a 427 dentist's drill    I'd be real interested to see what else Philippe and others can come up with on them, because they were the fastest motors "regular people" could buy as far as I knew back then.

 

 

Yea Phil, and today a person can by a RTR Group 12 Wing car for a $125 that is twice as fast as a Green Giant powered car was. Half of that twice is on the straights, the other half in the corners. Technology.

 

 

Nope.  The old C-cans were comparatively "heavy" and so were the chassis, but those motors made a ton of actual horsepower.  The great Steube, Green, etc. hand wound arms would still be just as great stuck into a modern setup, and would probably still be impressive even run as they were back then.  Maybe not competitive, but damned impressive.

 

Twice as fast ? That's almost all  because of full side dams and infinitely better tracks, than the speed of the motor.

 

IMO, if you put a Green Giant motor in a modern G12 car, with full side dams, and ran it on a modern track, it would be as fast or faster.

 

 

BTW, a Proslot G12 is $137.50. A Koford is $196.88.

 

 

Since I don't race, I'm sure Mike has forgotten more than I'll ever know about this stuff, but his assessment sounds reasonable to me though.  Horsepower is horsepower and (besides motors having gotten smaller and lighter) the basic technology hasn't changed at all, and neither has the physics.

 

-john

[Hworth08]

Okay Mike, use a GT 12 car that about 4 tenths slower than a Wing 12 and downforce similiar to a typical early '70s car though the lexan was owner added.

 

My brother has a Mura 1000 that was only the white endbell away from the famous Cukras pink motor. Can in a can, probably a 25 arm, the best for the time. I thought that motor would be quite a bit faster than our standard Deathstar Flexis. Surprised it was not a bit faster in a Flexi. I sent the motor to Monty who enjoyed the vintage equiment for a rebuild. He found no problems and was surprised the magnets gained only a little after sitting 40 years. After a rebuild by a master the motor wasn't noticably faster.

 

I guess you do make me look foolish about the price of a RTR ProSlot wing 12. I stated a 2005 price.

 

This discussion is easy enough to solve. Just put cars on the track powered by each type motor. The old motors are fairly cheap, often in the $50 range. Or even try an early X12 motor that only had 5 more turns than a modern 12 motor.

[TSR]

I agree with Mike Swiss in his assessment. In fact I did something similar to that in the late 1990s at the old BP raceway to prove a point, and the point was clearly made, the car with the old motor was just as fast as the same chassis with a G12 modern motor.

[Hworth08]

I guess if a person could dig up Monty and I can't remember his name's 3.88 car then he could be very competitive at the Wing nationals then.

[MSwiss]

 

I guess you do make me look foolish about the price of a RTR ProSlot wing 12. I stated a 2005 price.

 

 

Don,

You said  "today a person can by a RTR Group 12 Wing car for a $125 that is twice as fast"......

Then why quote a price from 2005 in 2013 ?

 

Plus that $125 (or $137) car is hardly a state of the art, 2.5 second car, that you could be competitive at the USRA Nat's.

 

Your post reminded me of the guys who chortle how their 5 yr. old Toyota Camry is faster than a (insert late 60's, mid range,  muscle car here)

So what?

 

They don't have a car show in my town's Downtown area, that people flock to on Friday night, to go check out a bunch of 5 yr. old Toyota

Camry and Nissan Altima's. LOL

[S.O. Watt]

I guess if a person could dig up Monty and I can't remember his name's 3.88 car then he could be very competitive at the Wing nationals then.

I would assume you are referring to the $8.88 made by Jan Limpach.

[MSwiss]

Tom,

I think he's referring to Earl Campbell's 3.88 World Record.

[TSR]

Tom, I do not think he is. I believe that Don is referring to the Blue King track record set in 1972 by Earl Campbell in Lynwood using a Monty Ohren chassis fitted with a Bob Green-built motor. Earl hot lapped the contraption to a 3.88" time, the first under 4-second record on... record.

 

Don, here is a picture of that chassis, that was in Earl's collection donated by Dennis Hill to the LASCM museum about 6 years ago:

 

 

 

Some day, I will put that thing back together as a complete car.

 

 

 

[MSwiss]

I guess if a person could dig up Monty and I can't remember his name's 3.88 car then he could be very competitive at the Wing nationals then.

Of course not.

 

But if you ran that car with a modern body with full side dams and spoiler, modern gears,.modern tires, reduced the weight, and most importantly,

went on a Gerding King, all stuff that doesn't have to do with the motor, it would go quite a bit faster than 3.88

[TSR]

Indeed! 

[Hworth08]

 

But if you ran that car with a modern body with full side dams and spoiler, modern gears,.modern tires, reduced the weight, and most importantly,

went on a Gerding King, all stuff that doesn't have to do with the motor, it would go quite a bit faster than 3.88

 

 

Sorry for not finding Earl Campbell's name, that was rude of me.

 

Philippe has stated various times that he used only a minimum of downforce for his cars of the same era. A modern Wing car "weights" more than the 3.88 car. Downforce isn't free, it takes power to devolope. Again Philippe spoke of some Indy car and how tricky it was to drive not at full speed. Tires? I don't remember my cars spinning out back then. Downforce I guess, they would spin in 1967. Tracks? Don't know, I've never driven on a Wing King but have driven on a Gerding Engleman.

 

Maybe someone close to a good track will be interested enough to compare. I wouldn't be surprised if a short G-12 arm doesn't have less resistance than the vintage, much longer 24 gage arms had even with the 12 having 55 turns. No doubt there are about a dozen modern magets that are much more effective than the vintage. Not stronger, more effective with the can. Or are the USRA racers combing ebay scrounging vintage cans and magnets?

[TSR]

Don,

If I had known better at the time, I WOULD have used more aero appendages. But I truly believed that limitations should have been placed on side dams height, and when the racers did not want such limitations, I lost interest and simply left the hobby.

My late 1972-early 1973 cars worked with very little additions to the body, but I was using by then a body that had the most down force money could buy, the MAC Porsche "917". That counted for something. Joel, Tony P and most other East Coast racers also used that body to good effect. As I was offered to drive a near-perfect replica of one of my own machines a few years ago, I was stunned to find out how nice it was to drive, and how smooth and utterly predictable it was. And this was on the old BP King, that was nowhere as good as the Gerding King they have today...

So maybe there was something to it... but I am sure that with tall side dams and a larger rear spoiler, those "Diamond" cars as they were called, would have lapped a LOT faster. 

[MSwiss]

 
I wouldn't be surprised if a short G-12 arm doesn't have less resistance than the vintage, much longer 24 gage arms had even with the 12 having 55 turns.

You've got to be kidding.

Only if the vintage arm's stack was around 3 inches long. Lol

A modern 24 gauge arm has about 8-1O times less resistance than a modern G12.

[SlotStox#53]

Not worried about the modern motors compared to the vintage performance /extreme stuff.. just want to hear about and look at the different vintage motors..

So if and when someone can bring on the gossip & details about the mura green giant and pictures if possible ...

Thanks

Having not been born in the right era or even the right country to see and hear all these vintage bad a$$ motors it is SOOO COOL getting all the info ..

Growing up in the 80's with average scalextric home stuff ,to finding my Dads old slot box.. with his old Riggen plumber chassis & group 20 motor.. Assorted other mild stuff that made its way to the UK ...

Hearing my first group 20 rev up was just wow!!! This was I think an A can or the big 16D ,hex key bolted brush hardware,com way past any salvaging but this thing whistled!!!

So bring on the green giant and all other crazy vintage performance motors..

-Paul

[MSwiss]

Not worried about the modern motors compared to the vintage performance /extreme stuff.. just want to hear about and look at the different vintage motors..

 

Agreed.

 

I'm pretty sure Scott Bader, or one of his children, in 2043, won't be adding on the "G12 RTR  Wing" to the LASCM.

[havlicek]

The above is interesting and all, but I keep thinking back to the Green Giant and:

 

I believe (without verifying quite yet) that the "Green Giant" was either a "B" or a "D-size" motor fitted with a "bubblegum" arm.

Since Ron Mura gave me all the company's catalogs and price sheets and the LASCM likely has one of these motors in file, I will get back to you with exact spec and date as soon as I can.

 

 

I'll be danged if I can remember exactly (fried neurons maybe?), but there's no way these had bubblegum arms in them as far as I recall Philippe.  I'd be surprised if these were B or D motors...really surprised, but the bubblegum arm just doesn't fit with what little I recall.

 

-john

[TSR]

Could be a "C" but I doubt it. Again, no time to check this minute but tomorrow i will have some time.

[Hworth08]

You've got to be kidding.

Only if the vintage arm's stack was around 3 inches long. Lol

A modern 24 gauge arm has about 8-1O times less resistance than a modern G12.

 

 

Maybe I wasn't clear. Not talking about a modern 24 wind, that would be a G-7 or maybe Euro with only half the turns of the vintage '70s arms. And Cobalt magnets.

 

In 1966 we started removing lams that worked fairly well with Mabuchi magnets. Then with Arcos the motor required a lot hotter arm to not be magnet bound. The arms worked better by adding lams. A lot of the 517 type motors have stacks as long as a modern 16D.