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Arm winding #2


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#1 Cheater

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:18 AM

This thread is a continuation of the Arm winding #1 topic, which at 120 pages was getting so long that we were probably going to have some problems with it before too long.

Pardon the interruption...

Gregory Wells

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#2 havlicek

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:37 PM

:D  I do tend to go on and on Greg.  Actually, I split the 5 pole thread because of this.  Probably should have just kept it all in one place.  I will get back to that soon, but I'm knee deep in "regular" arm work.

 

-john


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#3 havlicek

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:01 PM

     While Hawks are normally not sociable creatures, here's a rare shot of a flock of them:

 

AFlockofHawks_zps9938cfd2.jpg

 

Lotta work pressing the stacks, cutting the spacers and building the arms, powder coating, winding and welding...and they still have to be tied, epoxied, coms cut, ground and balanced.  I still hadn't recovered from the last similarly-sized bunch of arms, so I'm officially tired.  If you look to the right rear, you'll see a group of four *BONUS* arms I figured I'd toss in for giggles.  The darker-colored wire one is a #26 for me.  Sometimes I just can't help myself :D

 

-john


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#4 SlotStox#53

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:41 PM

What a sweet looking flock of Hawks! :D   Hawk 6 arms John?

 

You certainly have been busy!!! :shok:

 

Beefy looking coms , who's are they?



#5 havlicek

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:30 PM

Hi Paul,

 

 

 

You certainly have been busy!!!  :shok:

 

You should see the last bunch of arms I sent out.  These are like a vacation compared to those :)

 

 

 

Hawk 6 arms John?

 

I've lost track of the proper name Paul, but they're spaced to fit either of the Hawk's with the serviceable can/regular end bell (black or white).  I shortened the stack some, picked a lam I thought would be good and had at it.  

 

 

 

Beefy looking coms , who's are they?

 

They only look beefy compared to the stock com.  They're pretty much "standard" diameter, which is probably a much better size for the brushes in the Hawk.  They may or may not require opening up the hardware a bit to clear, but other than that it should be pretty much "plug and play".

 

-john


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#6 Samiam

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:02 PM

John,

Are these arms all spoken for?

 

If not how can I get one to stuff in my Hawk?


Sam Levitch
 
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#7 havlicek

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:42 AM

Hi Sam,

 

     The main group are for an order, but three of the four "additional" ones are available.  The #26 is for me, two of the others are #27 and one is a #28.  Let me get them all done and I'll hook you up.  After all..."Lawnguylanders" gotta take care of each other :)

 

-john


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#8 Samiam

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:18 AM

John,

That would be awesome. I just got a HAWK from Kenny at SAL. It is the one with a white end-bell and came with replacement brushes.

 

Most likely will go into a GT-12  or Indy chassis. 

 

What is the wind and how would it compare to the PS-4012 X-12 for the MK1?


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#9 havlicek

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

Hi Sam,

 

The wind will be either a 40/28 or a 36/27.  Both are on the warm side, so the motor will require a good setup with the arm well-centered and as little end play as possible...maybe even shunts and spring insulation.  Of course, also be sure the com isn't hitting the brush hardware, although I think it should be fine on the white end bell.  Beats me how it would compare to the PS, so watch your gear ratio so the motor can wind out.  You don't want these things "lugging".

 

-john


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#10 Samiam

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 05:55 PM

Sounds like this nugget will be an "Outlaw Pro" motor. I'll be using brass hardware and BF2s.

 

Any suggestions on air gap?


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#11 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:14 PM

it will run way better the the ps setup... it actually has useful cooling holes
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

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#12 Samiam

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:30 PM

David,

I would have thought the opposite. The Hawk has a huge hole compared to the PS.

 

Will the arms interchange between the two set ups?


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#13 havlicek

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:27 AM

 

Sounds like this nugget will be an "Outlaw Pro" motor. I'll be using brass hardware and BF2s.

 

Any suggestions on air gap?

 

I'm going to have them ground to .510" and think the stock setup should be fine.  With the Hawk can, the magnets are not easily shimmed and being matrix neos, honing is a no-no.  Personally, I prefer the ceramics in the original Hawk and you can screw around with those some, but even those are retained by the can "lips" with no separate clips.  Anyway, the matrix neos are stronger (when new anyway) than the ceramics and there isn't any reason to shim them.

 

-john


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#14 SlotStox#53

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:38 AM

I remember you asking about the hawk motors as they come with the black or white endbells.. getting the hawk with the black EB that comes with the ceramic mags ? Does the EB need to be opened up for the arms you have wound?

Prefer the sound of the ceramic mags as will eventually get a zapper :D

#15 havlicek

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:13 AM

I remember you asking about the hawk motors as they come with the black or white endbells.. getting the hawk with the black EB that comes with the ceramic mags ? Does the EB need to be opened up for the arms you have wound?

Prefer the sound of the ceramic mags as will eventually get a zapper :D

 

Hi Paul,

 

     I forget, but I think the white end-bell has more internal clearance for a larger diameter com.  It's no big thing anyway, as radiusing-out the brush hardware is a pretty simple task.  People just have to remember to remove any burrs so the brushes don't get hung up.  The brushes should (as always) drop right through the hoods by gravity alone before re-installing the end bell.  Having a brush or brushes get hung up is a good way to burn up a com since (as opposed to normal break-in) any arcing will increase over time before the motor stops working.  Arcing = heat.  Of course, a wider com *might* mean the brushes need to be shortened a bit, but that would become clear as soon as the end bell was reassembled and shortening the brushes is even easier than radiusing-out the hardware.

 

-john


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#16 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:49 AM

i meant "then the" sorry
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

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#17 SlotStox#53

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:45 PM

Thanks for the info and tips John :) will come in handy when I mess with some hawk setups.

#18 Samiam

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:18 PM

John,

 I went back and looked at the thread Paul mentioned. I decided to order a few of the Hawks w/ceramic mags. I have a Mack Bulldog chassis that is waiting for a powerplant. 1/24 AmeriSport.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
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#19 havlicek

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:36 PM

Hi Sam,

 

     The arms are out for grinding and balancing, so I'll hook you up when they get back.  Meanwhile, there will be several different winds  available out of this group, so what is a Mack Bulldog chassis (pictures or links to pictures would be best) and tell me more about the 1/24 Amerisport class (bodies, track type...flat or banked, weight, what arms/setups "most guys" are running etc.).  That way, I may be better able to supply you with the best arm for your use.  If need be, I can always wind you another one if I think it's necessary.  I can do anything from mild to wild, as well as build your stack from several different type lams.

 

-john


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#20 Samiam

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:26 PM

John,

 It's a Mack Bulldog 2 GT-12 chassis.Sort of a EuroSport design. They run c-can 12s.Scale bodies.No wings or glue.

 

With a mini-can like the PS MK1s and Hawk 6s it should handle a lot better. There is no AmeriSport.That is my take on what it would be with an American made arm. Not racing in any class,just making a track car. I love putting these cars on the King after a B-day party. The kids love 'em and the Dads see a fast car that does not fall off every lap. Sometimes you hook one or two and you get new racers.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#21 havlicek

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 06:49 AM

Gotcha Sam.

 

-john


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#22 SlotStox#53

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:19 PM

John, how do you determine the number of turns for say a double or triple wind , plus gauge of wire to use compared to a single wind?

Say for instance Pablo has a 60 turns of 28 on the Proslot arms he's using for his vintage builds, how would that equate to double or triple winds ?

Just wondering as I may at some point try a double wind after getting some singles under my belt :)

#23 Marty N

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 04:58 PM

Hope you don't mind John me jumping in here.

Three wire gauges for a double. Six for a triple and eight for a quad. In your example your wanting the equivelent double for a 60/28 single if I understand you correctly. Thus two layers of 31 gauge 60 turns each layer or alternitively as a "two in hand", two strands of 31 for 60 turns. Should pull about the same current.

If you meant using the same wire as a double then 30 turns of 28 in two layers or two in hand two strands of 28 for 30 turns. This would equal a 30/25. Should pull four times as much current.

Case one is a push in performance. As a layered wind it may have a lower inductance only because it can be a more compact coil.

Case two is more interesting. Not all blanks will wind 30/25 but most will wind the double equivelent as once again, it is a bit more compact. Less empty space between wires. As a two in hand...well there is no way to wind it as neatly so may be of no use to you. Other interesting uses of this type of wind is split winds. Either two in hand or layered. One strand each of two different gauges to equal a half step.
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#24 SlotStox#53

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:17 PM

Yeah the 60T #28 was just an example but explains nicely the concept. Thanks for the detailed explanation ,had an idea it was two strands at once but not two layers.

Really interesting and the info about the wire size difference is a big help :D

#25 havlicek

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:22 PM

Thanks Marty :)  On a personal note, while it is definitely more difficult to wind doubles "parallel" (two wires at the same time), they can be done neatly, but more importantly, it is my belief that they will run better than so-called "layered doubles".  Layered doubles will run fine, but parallel doubles will run...er..."finer".  :)  Because of the extra work involved, I don't do many doubles any more...people don't seem to think they're worth extra dinero.  Sometimes when I'm feeling charitable, I'll do them anyway.  BTW, as hard as they are to wind "parallel", they are equally hard to weld.  The wire is (obviously) much thinner and getting electrically-sound welds is tougher without melting the wire.  Personally, I'd rather wind 5 poles, but until someone somewhere comes up with solid coms for them, that's all strictly experimental.

 

-john


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