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Horsepower for Vintage racing?


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#1 idare2bdul

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 03:53 PM

D3 and the other vintage organizations offer a variety of horepower options but most are kind of mild. D3's RetroPro and Big Dog class and the NorCal classes may offer a few options faster than a FK can deliver.

I wonder if there is any interest in a vintage race or series of races where, with the exception of rare earth magnets, it's run what you brung for horspower. Sort of ARCO rules for the 21st Century?

I miss coming out of a corner and having to control wheel spin and then braking hard for the next corner to set up my slide. D3 has been fun but it's like racing a formula V, more energy conservation than brute acceleration. Since the real Can-Am cars really hauled down the straights it seems weird but the SoCal guys love 'em.

Anybody else up for this kind of challenge?
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Mike Boemker




#2 Hworth08

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:38 PM

It seems a bit strange to have a high-horsepower race but LIMIT the rules to NO cobalt motors?

Sliding and wheel spin does sound like a good idea. Maybe Trans-Am bodies with much-narrowed rear tires may create a car that really has to be "feathered" off a corner?
Don Hollingsworth

#3 gascarnut

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:11 PM

You're a brave man, Mike B - using "D3" and "Vintage" in the same sentence!

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#4 Jairus

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:16 PM

How about anything goes with C-can two hole motors and Blue Dot magnets!

I am interested... :D

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#5 Ron Hershman

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 06:13 PM

I touched on this before in a long lost thread... my ideas were to use the following motor rules.

Can - Only the Pro Slot and Koford Drag racing cans are allowed. They are heavy, and provide lots of gauss and are very similar in weight to the older two-hole Mura cans. No modifications or cutting allowed to cans.

Magnets - Any full size CERAMIC C-can magnet may be used. I say single piece mags only. There are quads and six-piece ceramic full-size magnets out there now... for more money.

Armatures - Any min diameter .510" with a minimum stack length of .440" or maybe .480 (similar to the Vintage days and longer stack length will add reliability) with any wind allowed.

Endbell - Any C-can endbell allowed with buss bars, heat sinks, etc. Aluminum endbells could be allowed to help cool motors and add reliability, but aluminum endbells are not period correct. ;)

Etc. - Any brushes, springs, shunt wires, spring insulation, ball bearings allowed. May hone and adjust air gap inside motors with shims, etc.

More thoughts, please.
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#6 Jairus

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 06:22 PM

Thoughts: Keep it more to a period! Other than that... I think Ron has the spirit! B)

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#7 Ron Hershman

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 06:35 PM

You could also probably get P-S to make a "spec" arm (similar to what is done with the mini motors in regard to tags with "PD' or "BD" on them) say a 19 turn 24.5 with a tag that would rock and roll. It would provide plenty of power, but not be expensive in the search for ultimate speed by buying all kinds of arms with different winds.

Just another thought.

#8 Larry LS

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:27 PM

:D :D The SCMs are at it again.

Why bother with slow Vintage bodies, just get them swooopy scale or wing bodies and air dams, etc. Heck, you can do the King in at least 1.5 seconds. Sounds familiar to me. Aww, Ron let them have at least six-segment mags, hollow titanium axles, .700 dia. rear tires, and nice sticker fronts. Maybe some of those new unobtainium frames or the carbon fibre ones. Yeah, sounds like a blast from the very recent past. Titanium endbells would be nice. too. Some 23,24 double winds or one turn of coated coat hanger wire. :aggressive: :bb:

It's either wide open, run what you brung, or you will need some (dang rules) to mess things up. :blink:

Just pulling a few collective legs! :D :D

Hey, you can do anything you want, just get it organized and started. :acute: :dance4: :bye:
Larry Shephard
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#9 Ron Hershman

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:31 PM

In 20 years or so... what you posted will be vintage racing. ;)

#10 Jairus

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 08:18 PM

I say unlimited with a technology rule of 1970 as if NCC had never raised its ugly little head! Oh, Yeeeaaaahhhhhh! :sun_bespectacled:

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#11 Jon Laster

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 09:05 PM

All right, Jairus!
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#12 Prof. Fate

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 10:21 AM

Hi,

Some of you have seen me run such cars... I KEPT THEM RUNNING.

So, ya.

Fate
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#13 idare2bdul

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:43 PM

:D :D The SCMs are at it again.

Why bother with slow Vintage bodies, just get them swooopy scale or wing bodies and air dams, etc. Heck, you can do the King in at least 1.5 seconds. Sounds familiar to me. Aww, Ron let them have at least six-segment mags, hollow titanium axles, .700 dia. rear tires, and nice sticker fronts. Maybe some of those new unobtainium frames or the carbon fibre ones. Yeah, sounds like a blast from the very recent past. Titanium endbells would be nice. too. Some 23,24 double winds or one turn of coated coat hanger wire. :aggressive: :bb:

It's either wide open, run what you brung, or you will need some (dang rules) to mess things up. :blink:

Just pulling a few collective legs! :D :D

Hey, you can do anything you want, just get it organized and started. :acute: :dance4: :bye:

Larry, I'm not trying to kill D3. I'm not talking about a monthly race and I realize many of the D3 racers are challenged by driving the relatively mild-motored D3 Can-Am cars. None of us are getting any younger and our skills aren't what they used to be.

Ron's suggestion of using the drag cans would give us a motor very similar in performance to a late-'70s C-can. My post asked for people who might want to play.

I was actually in favor of limiting many of the things that are now legal in D3. For those of you unfamiliar with the state of D3 technology, it's been a chassis development war. Few cars stay in the A main for more than a race or two. Most of the field is made up of guys that race what they have and end up in what ever main they qualify in and just don't care. That is not a bad thing. D3 gives the chassis builders a place to play. For the most part the motor builders have been left out of the fun. I don't think think C-can horsepower is a tool of the devil.
The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
Mike Boemker

#14 TSR

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 02:47 PM

I was actually in favor of limiting many of the things that are now legal in D3.

Since we at D3 are always interested in good and positive suggestions, I think that you should extrapolate and let us know what you would limit.

I don't think think C-can horsepower is a tool of the devil.

Glad we agree. Did anyone said that it is? I must have missed it.

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#15 Jon Laster

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 08:48 PM

Philippe asks the right question, though I admire Jairus' samurai spirit; you limit glue to none, for starters, right? That necessitates using natural rubber tires, even then much more than a 27 is pushing it; still sounds entertaining. Other than that I have no opinions about this or any other topic...
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#16 kuni123456

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 09:40 PM

Jon,

I think that it might be good to have a D3 class with unlimited C-can motors with ceramic magnets. The cars would be run with spray glue just like the current D3 slot cars. The chassis design would be either inline or anglewinder just like the current D3 classes.

I know that many people would probably not race this class, but I would like to race D3 cars with faster motors. I have old C-can motors with rewind armatures from the early 1970s and even have old anglewinder chassis. I have even run my old 1970s USRA slot cars and they are faster than the D3 cars. I should put one of these old rewind motors in a current D3 chassis.
John K. Wakamatsu

#17 Jairus

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 09:47 PM

D3 rules for the chassis, anglewinder.
Pick a current affordable C-can motor, no cobalt mags... any wind arm.
Natural rubber tires no glue unless the track owner puts it on for all lanes.
Limit the bodies to at least 1969 and pick ONE race to put it all together.
Simple and see how many cars/racers show up. If the race bombs... then we all have the answer.

(Still want to use vintage motors... but you're the boss.)
I have a free plane ticket to LA as long as I use it before Nov 3rd... after that I'll have to drive my '90 Taurus... :rolleyes:

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#18 slotcarone

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:04 PM

:D Why do we keep wanting to create new classes?

I understand people want choices but IMO it's much more fun (isn't this what we're trying to have here?) to have everyone race the same class of car so we don't have to build many different cars to fill a race day.

Back in the day there were different driver classes but we all raced the same class of car.

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#19 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 09:28 AM

I have fun with early '70s Pro cars powered by this vintage Mura C-can setup. They are available from Electric Dreams or in junk cars on eBay:

Posted Image

Posted Image

I use modern arm, magnets, brushes, and springs. I can get elephant ear heat sinks laser cut and formed:

Posted Image

You can hammer this motor hard and it lasts. Put it in a car like this:

Posted Image

I have had Aguirre front wheels cloned. Rears could be modern as could the gears. Jet flags are available from REH. Lead wire is Slick 7. Pans and motor bracket are REH. MAC bodies from Electric Dreams or bodies from O/S Design. Lots-O-lead and we have a real vintage driving Pro car with the weight and power to get your heart pumping. It doesn't matter if a D3 car has as fast or faster lap time. It just isn't the same. This is WAY more "vintage", a thrill to drive and people could be racing these if they wanted to. Of course that will never happen...

Just my 2 cents and my flame suit is on. :D
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#20 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 09:35 AM

I just thought to add that the chassis could be simpler like this 888 and they would be just as much fun:

Posted Image

Posted Image

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#21 Jairus

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 09:42 AM

How many of those unsold chassis do you think are left in circulation? You might have something there... for those who want a scratchbuilt chassis, that is.

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#22 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 09:55 AM

Hi Jairus,

I'm thinking about building the chassis. Just like they build the chassis for D3. REH has a chassis you could use but I take them apart for the parts and build my own.

Here's one of their chassis and along with other parts for a different build:

Posted Image

There's your drop arm and motor bracket and they sell pans, too.

I'm thinking of a class where "the cars are the stars". It's all about the building and driving a car that is as much like they were "back in the day" as possible. It would be very different from D3 and is not meant to replace or change D3.

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#23 Jairus

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:21 AM

Who is REH? (web site please...). I have been buying my brass from NCP (or is it NPC?), but they tell me that they are out of the bat pans. So I have been reduced to making my own.

The RTR chassis are too expensive to buy just for the drop arm so I now make those, too. If this is to become a viably series... the parts HAVE got to be available pre-cut! Otherwise the persons with access to a laser cutter will be the only ones who build.

Never mind... I found REH! But it's all HO stuff!

- signed frustrated.

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#24 Cheater

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:31 AM

Never mind... I found REH! But it's all HO stuff!

Then you didn't really find REHco, which is basically a wholesaler. You'll need to get a raceway owner to order stuff from REHco for you, or get Butch to do it, as he's nearby and has "privileges" IIRC.

Somebody give Jairus the story of Bob Haines and REH, please.

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#25 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:36 AM

REH is a distributor that sells to raceways. My last order was a few months ago and they had pans, motor brackets, and the chassis which has the drop arm and motor bracket.

If REH runs out of chassis for drop arms they could be made. The good Dokktor has had my laser cut blank guide tongues perfectly formed with tooling he had made. The same thing could be done with drop arm blanks. Laser cutting the blanks would probably cost $4 or $5 each plus material. Of course if Scott wanted to get these stamped out in quantity and sold through Electric Dreams I bet there would be a good market for a Parma clone drop arm.

Also, I know cheap is best but sometimes splurging a little on something really fun is OK. Remember, "The cars are the stars". :D

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#26 Prof. Fate

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 11:17 AM

Hi,

The REH "American Line" chassis 1006 and 1006B are actually period Gp 15 chassis from the early and mid '70s, a contemporary of the Limpach 888 you show above. Originally a Parma product. Last I looked, they were $12.95.

I have a couple period survivors I built up from "the dark ages" which were essentially the Parma re-soldered, as the few tracks at the time were fairly restrictive. Mine mostly ran in Denver.

The period "Gp 15" motor was a Mura C-can that eventually became the "Wasp" or "Contender"(depending on stack length). This is a quality 65t/30 arm.

Because of the period rules, they are set up for 3/4 fronts and .875 rears. have found mine to be supremely easy to keep running. At that period, virtually all the regular "consumables" (bushings, braid, and such) are identical to today.

For non-builders, the surviving 888s and Parma 15s are excellent frames for can play.

Fate
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#27 tonyp

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 11:25 AM

I believe REH still has a ton of these 1/16" x 1" drop arms from the 1968-69 era still in stock.

Posted Image

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#28 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 01:28 PM

They have the same style, whoseever they were, in 1-1/4" width, too. :)

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#29 Tex

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 01:37 PM

Cobra, I think(?).
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#30 tonyp

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 01:44 PM

You're right, I had some of the wide ones. The 1" have no name on them... I cut them up and use them for nose pieces on my cars. The bent-up part is way too high for today's guides.

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#31 TSR

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 01:47 PM

Are you guys challenged by the simple act of soldering a guide tongue ("tounge" to illitterates) over a rectangular piece of brass? That's what we do in D3... why bother to complicate matters?

This kind of a chassis shown below, devised by Mike Steube over a year ago is so basic and simple, yet works great and requires very minimal skills to cut and assemble:

Posted Image

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#32 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 01:48 PM

Cobra, I think(?).

The Cobra solid arms used to be stamped with their name. These ones are just scratched. :D

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#33 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 02:03 PM

Here's the REH 1-1/4" arm. It's the one on the left:

Posted Image

It's more for an earlier car with a Cox guide. That would be another vintage class... say '69ish. The more the merrier. :D .

But I'm talking about a 1971-2 C-can class using the Parma style arm:

Posted Image

Cars like Tony P's $10 chassis car:

Posted Image
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#34 Fred_J

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 02:46 PM

Rick,

What's the width of that Parma drop arm? And does it have a REH part number? The last time I ordered some parts from REH, I didn't see any drop arms listed that looked so wide.
Fred Jespersen

#35 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 03:00 PM

Fred,

The Parma arm is 1-1/4" wide. They are only available from REH as part of a complete chassis and I believe the only version they have left has a rectangular hole in it.

The separate drop arms they have left are pictured above with the part number for the .040" thick version. I think they have a thicker one also.

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#36 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 07:15 PM

Over the years, a number of different people have said they were going to reproduce the Parma-type droparms but none of them ever has come through. It's also sad that Parma doesn't have any idea what happened to their tooling for making brass chassis parts. :( :(

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#37 Jon Laster

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:09 PM

Back to horsepower. The problem with a limited, just us guys who want to do it, class, is that if it's faster it devalues the other classes. Everyone gets dissatisfied with their Falcon XXX and the rest is downhill. Although one could make a rule set for an ideal Open Vintage class, finding a series it wouldn't hurt is another story. More opinions from a non-participant...
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#38 Tex

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 07:47 AM

I don't know 'bout that, Jon.

Since I became aware of D3, there have always been some rumblings for power, MORE power, POWER!!! But those rumblings have been from a minority of the guys; most of the D3 guys seem happy enough with the way things are.

I can understand guys wanting to reproduce what WAS group 7 cars. They should proceed and form such a class. But I don't think that the formation of such a class will dillute the D3 driver pool that much. I think the D3 class(es) holds enough interest for geezers like me to not become devalued/discounted just because faster, more powerful cars exist. Faster, more powerful cars exist today already yet D3 has taken root and grown.

The D3 class(es) may not ever dominate the commercial slot racing scene but for the moment, I don't think we care; we are happy enough.
Richard L. Hofer

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#39 Tex

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 07:50 AM

Greg, you shoulda been a school teacher! LOL! :D
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#40 Cheater

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 07:58 AM

My observation is that the faster the slot car, the more people there are who are uncomfortable, perhaps even afraid, of them from the standpoint of participation.

I would suggest that many of us who have been involved in the hobby for some time (or from the earliest days) now believe that worshipping unlimited power or speed as the Holy Grail was a dead-end for slot racing.

There's nothing intrinsically bad or wrong about unlimited slot car racing, but ironically it has shown itself to have limited appeal.

However, if enough guys find the concept viable, go for it!

Gregory Wells

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#41 Cheater

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 08:08 AM

Greg, you shoulda been a school teacher! LOL! :D

Tex, I assume this is response to my asking someone to tell the REHco story, and the one I wanted you to hear hasn't been posted. I've met Bob Haines but never seen his operation, so I was hoping someone who had would chime in.

As I heard it, when the hobby started crashing, Bob Haines began buying up inventories from distributors and manufacturers for pennies on the dollar and stashing them in trailers on his property. Supposedly, he has/had so much stuff that he had no idea what was there.

Over the years, many folks have spent time digging through Bob's "stash", and finding some really neat stuff, much of which has either ended up in collections/museums and on eBay. PdL has indicated the best stuff was taken years ago, but there still seem to be some goodies based on what certain sellers keep putting on eBay.

None of the above is based on first-hand info, so corrections would be welcome.

And me, a schoolteacher?!?!? Not a chance; I can't stand my own kids a large part of the time...

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#42 Tex

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 08:13 AM

Tex, I assume this is response to my asking someone to tell the REHco story,

No, actually. I say that because you edit all the posts to make them more readable, breaking up my "free-form flow of consciousness" style of one large paragraph into individual logical units. Ain't gonna be no untidy split-ends around the Gregster! :lol:
Richard L. Hofer

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#43 Cheater

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 08:29 AM

Tex,

It's all about lowering barriers. There's lots of research that indicates making prose text more readable via paragraphs means more people read what you have to say.

My view is that Slotblog is a magazine with over 600 contributors, and correct spelling and grammar is important, along with consistency of style. It's the fourth mag I've done and the first that wasn't a printed book...

I appreciate the fact that virtually all the Slotbloggers allow me to edit their posts, and I hope no one thinks this is done because of ego or delusions of power. The sole purpose is to make Slotblog, its members, and the slot car hobby look better to the outside world.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#44 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 10:47 AM

I would like to remind some here, that the current lap speed on a King track by the D3 Can-Am cars with their 10-dollar "rear-view mirror" motors is equivalent to that of world-record time in GP-7 in 1969-1970 attained with single-24 C-can motors.

Most D3 racers think that this is plenty fast enough, hence D3 has frozen the spec. D3 does NOT want the cars to go ANY faster.

Why?

Ask yourselves.

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#45 Prof. Fate

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 11:00 AM

Hi,

Errr, come on, P. That track is so so much faster than the Kings were in the period, that the idea that the "world record" of the time is a valid comparison is just off.

I kept cars, I remember their times from then, surface and design, the BP track is a good 40% faster than it was then.

Actually, every time this comes up, I am reminded of about a year ago, when Steube was looking at my surviviors. I handed him that Cooper/Maser "wide F1" that I have from then. He put it on the track punched and lifted immediately.

"Wow, I forgot how much power we used to run back then... this is fun".

And promptly started turning two tenths under my best time. He is the Froggmeister!

I have never stopped playing with my period bits. Horepower is fun to play with.

If my goal was to participate in a program based on popularity and participation:

I would take up GOLF!

Fate
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#46 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 11:06 AM

That track is so so much faster than the Kings were in the period, that the idea that the "world record" of the time is a valid comparison is just off.

Rocky,
You are missing the whole point. The track is still 155', the cars are fast ENOUGH if their lap times matches those of open-class cars of the time. In 1969-1970, those were the fastest slot cars on Earth.
Remember the "retro" concept?
You want to go faster? Fine and dandy. Go race something else. Most D3 racers are happy with "their" speed.

By the way, may I remind you of your two finishes in the two D3 races you entered so far? :D

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#47 dc-65x

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 11:34 AM

Please take note. I have nothing against D3 and God bless everyone who enjoys it. But, for me, even if a D3 is faster around a Blue King because it's punched most of the time, I bet my Eddie 20 1972 Neat Things Pro car replica will thunder past it down the straight with my heart pounding and my palms sweating as I punch the bank. Now that's entertainment… at least for me. I'm just a builder-duffer, not a real racer. I like building the chassis AND motor and doing it as period as I can. I know I’m virtually alone on this. :blink:

Again, long live D3 and everyone who enjoys it. I'm glad there is a good time for all with lots of comroddary. :)

Rick Thigpen
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#48 Jairus

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 11:45 AM

I got your back, Rick! :good:

Dokk, I DO want my D3 car to go a little faster... just a little faster than YOUR D3 car! :D

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#49 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 11:51 AM

Jairus,
That's the trick, eh! :D

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#50 Larry LS

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 12:42 PM

Hey, drag cars are great on the straights also. But stink in the corners; you got to be be to handle that horsepower, Rick. Getting it on coming out of corner, can you control that wheel spin of those monster motors? :D I know I can't anymore. :blush:

So why should I bother anymore with that? :crazy:

Falcon 7s are just about enough now. For me! :to_become_senile:

Besides, you need some real Stick-It brown glue and a spugder to control those kind of motors nowadays. Spray glue does not do enough for them. :D

Just fussin with you, Rick! :drinks:
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