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Horsepower for Vintage racing?


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#1 idare2bdul

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 03:53 PM

D3 and the other vintage organizations offer a variety of horepower options but most are kind of mild. D3's RetroPro and Big Dog class and the NorCal classes may offer a few options faster than a FK can deliver.

I wonder if there is any interest in a vintage race or series of races where, with the exception of rare earth magnets, it's run what you brung for horspower. Sort of ARCO rules for the 21st Century?

I miss coming out of a corner and having to control wheel spin and then braking hard for the next corner to set up my slide. D3 has been fun but it's like racing a formula V, more energy conservation than brute acceleration. Since the real Can-Am cars really hauled down the straights it seems weird but the SoCal guys love 'em.

Anybody else up for this kind of challenge?
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#2 Hworth08

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:38 PM

It seems a bit strange to have a high-horsepower race but LIMIT the rules to NO cobalt motors?

Sliding and wheel spin does sound like a good idea. Maybe Trans-Am bodies with much-narrowed rear tires may create a car that really has to be "feathered" off a corner?
Don Hollingsworth

#3 gascarnut

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:11 PM

You're a brave man, Mike B - using "D3" and "Vintage" in the same sentence!

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#4 Jairus

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:16 PM

How about anything goes with C-can two hole motors and Blue Dot magnets!

I am interested... :D

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#5 Ron Hershman

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 06:13 PM

I touched on this before in a long lost thread... my ideas were to use the following motor rules.

Can - Only the Pro Slot and Koford Drag racing cans are allowed. They are heavy, and provide lots of gauss and are very similar in weight to the older two-hole Mura cans. No modifications or cutting allowed to cans.

Magnets - Any full size CERAMIC C-can magnet may be used. I say single piece mags only. There are quads and six-piece ceramic full-size magnets out there now... for more money.

Armatures - Any min diameter .510" with a minimum stack length of .440" or maybe .480 (similar to the Vintage days and longer stack length will add reliability) with any wind allowed.

Endbell - Any C-can endbell allowed with buss bars, heat sinks, etc. Aluminum endbells could be allowed to help cool motors and add reliability, but aluminum endbells are not period correct. ;)

Etc. - Any brushes, springs, shunt wires, spring insulation, ball bearings allowed. May hone and adjust air gap inside motors with shims, etc.

More thoughts, please.
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#6 Jairus

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 06:22 PM

Thoughts: Keep it more to a period! Other than that... I think Ron has the spirit! B)

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#7 Ron Hershman

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 06:35 PM

You could also probably get P-S to make a "spec" arm (similar to what is done with the mini motors in regard to tags with "PD' or "BD" on them) say a 19 turn 24.5 with a tag that would rock and roll. It would provide plenty of power, but not be expensive in the search for ultimate speed by buying all kinds of arms with different winds.

Just another thought.

#8 Larry LS

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:27 PM

:D :D The SCMs are at it again.

Why bother with slow Vintage bodies, just get them swooopy scale or wing bodies and air dams, etc. Heck, you can do the King in at least 1.5 seconds. Sounds familiar to me. Aww, Ron let them have at least six-segment mags, hollow titanium axles, .700 dia. rear tires, and nice sticker fronts. Maybe some of those new unobtainium frames or the carbon fibre ones. Yeah, sounds like a blast from the very recent past. Titanium endbells would be nice. too. Some 23,24 double winds or one turn of coated coat hanger wire. :aggressive: :bb:

It's either wide open, run what you brung, or you will need some (dang rules) to mess things up. :blink:

Just pulling a few collective legs! :D :D

Hey, you can do anything you want, just get it organized and started. :acute: :dance4: :bye:
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#9 Ron Hershman

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:31 PM

In 20 years or so... what you posted will be vintage racing. ;)

#10 Jairus

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 08:18 PM

I say unlimited with a technology rule of 1970 as if NCC had never raised its ugly little head! Oh, Yeeeaaaahhhhhh! :sun_bespectacled:

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#11 Jon Laster

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 09:05 PM

All right, Jairus!
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#12 Prof. Fate

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 10:21 AM

Hi,

Some of you have seen me run such cars... I KEPT THEM RUNNING.

So, ya.

Fate
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#13 idare2bdul

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:43 PM

:D :D The SCMs are at it again.

Why bother with slow Vintage bodies, just get them swooopy scale or wing bodies and air dams, etc. Heck, you can do the King in at least 1.5 seconds. Sounds familiar to me. Aww, Ron let them have at least six-segment mags, hollow titanium axles, .700 dia. rear tires, and nice sticker fronts. Maybe some of those new unobtainium frames or the carbon fibre ones. Yeah, sounds like a blast from the very recent past. Titanium endbells would be nice. too. Some 23,24 double winds or one turn of coated coat hanger wire. :aggressive: :bb:

It's either wide open, run what you brung, or you will need some (dang rules) to mess things up. :blink:

Just pulling a few collective legs! :D :D

Hey, you can do anything you want, just get it organized and started. :acute: :dance4: :bye:

Larry, I'm not trying to kill D3. I'm not talking about a monthly race and I realize many of the D3 racers are challenged by driving the relatively mild-motored D3 Can-Am cars. None of us are getting any younger and our skills aren't what they used to be.

Ron's suggestion of using the drag cans would give us a motor very similar in performance to a late-'70s C-can. My post asked for people who might want to play.

I was actually in favor of limiting many of the things that are now legal in D3. For those of you unfamiliar with the state of D3 technology, it's been a chassis development war. Few cars stay in the A main for more than a race or two. Most of the field is made up of guys that race what they have and end up in what ever main they qualify in and just don't care. That is not a bad thing. D3 gives the chassis builders a place to play. For the most part the motor builders have been left out of the fun. I don't think think C-can horsepower is a tool of the devil.
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Mike Boemker

#14 TSR

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 02:47 PM

I was actually in favor of limiting many of the things that are now legal in D3.

Since we at D3 are always interested in good and positive suggestions, I think that you should extrapolate and let us know what you would limit.

I don't think think C-can horsepower is a tool of the devil.

Glad we agree. Did anyone said that it is? I must have missed it.

#15 Jon Laster

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 08:48 PM

Philippe asks the right question, though I admire Jairus' samurai spirit; you limit glue to none, for starters, right? That necessitates using natural rubber tires, even then much more than a 27 is pushing it; still sounds entertaining. Other than that I have no opinions about this or any other topic...
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#16 kuni123456

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 09:40 PM

Jon,

I think that it might be good to have a D3 class with unlimited C-can motors with ceramic magnets. The cars would be run with spray glue just like the current D3 slot cars. The chassis design would be either inline or anglewinder just like the current D3 classes.

I know that many people would probably not race this class, but I would like to race D3 cars with faster motors. I have old C-can motors with rewind armatures from the early 1970s and even have old anglewinder chassis. I have even run my old 1970s USRA slot cars and they are faster than the D3 cars. I should put one of these old rewind motors in a current D3 chassis.
John K. Wakamatsu

#17 Jairus

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 09:47 PM

D3 rules for the chassis, anglewinder.
Pick a current affordable C-can motor, no cobalt mags... any wind arm.
Natural rubber tires no glue unless the track owner puts it on for all lanes.
Limit the bodies to at least 1969 and pick ONE race to put it all together.
Simple and see how many cars/racers show up. If the race bombs... then we all have the answer.

(Still want to use vintage motors... but you're the boss.)
I have a free plane ticket to LA as long as I use it before Nov 3rd... after that I'll have to drive my '90 Taurus... :rolleyes:

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#18 slotcarone

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:04 PM

:D Why do we keep wanting to create new classes?

I understand people want choices but IMO it's much more fun (isn't this what we're trying to have here?) to have everyone race the same class of car so we don't have to build many different cars to fill a race day.

Back in the day there were different driver classes but we all raced the same class of car.

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#19 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 09:28 AM

I have fun with early '70s Pro cars powered by this vintage Mura C-can setup. They are available from Electric Dreams or in junk cars on eBay:

Posted Image

Posted Image

I use modern arm, magnets, brushes, and springs. I can get elephant ear heat sinks laser cut and formed:

Posted Image

You can hammer this motor hard and it lasts. Put it in a car like this:

Posted Image

I have had Aguirre front wheels cloned. Rears could be modern as could the gears. Jet flags are available from REH. Lead wire is Slick 7. Pans and motor bracket are REH. MAC bodies from Electric Dreams or bodies from O/S Design. Lots-O-lead and we have a real vintage driving Pro car with the weight and power to get your heart pumping. It doesn't matter if a D3 car has as fast or faster lap time. It just isn't the same. This is WAY more "vintage", a thrill to drive and people could be racing these if they wanted to. Of course that will never happen...

Just my 2 cents and my flame suit is on. :D
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#20 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 09:35 AM

I just thought to add that the chassis could be simpler like this 888 and they would be just as much fun:

Posted Image

Posted Image

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#21 Jairus

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 09:42 AM

How many of those unsold chassis do you think are left in circulation? You might have something there... for those who want a scratchbuilt chassis, that is.

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#22 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 09:55 AM

Hi Jairus,

I'm thinking about building the chassis. Just like they build the chassis for D3. REH has a chassis you could use but I take them apart for the parts and build my own.

Here's one of their chassis and along with other parts for a different build:

Posted Image

There's your drop arm and motor bracket and they sell pans, too.

I'm thinking of a class where "the cars are the stars". It's all about the building and driving a car that is as much like they were "back in the day" as possible. It would be very different from D3 and is not meant to replace or change D3.

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#23 Jairus

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:21 AM

Who is REH? (web site please...). I have been buying my brass from NCP (or is it NPC?), but they tell me that they are out of the bat pans. So I have been reduced to making my own.

The RTR chassis are too expensive to buy just for the drop arm so I now make those, too. If this is to become a viably series... the parts HAVE got to be available pre-cut! Otherwise the persons with access to a laser cutter will be the only ones who build.

Never mind... I found REH! But it's all HO stuff!

- signed frustrated.

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#24 Cheater

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:31 AM

Never mind... I found REH! But it's all HO stuff!

Then you didn't really find REHco, which is basically a wholesaler. You'll need to get a raceway owner to order stuff from REHco for you, or get Butch to do it, as he's nearby and has "privileges" IIRC.

Somebody give Jairus the story of Bob Haines and REH, please.

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#25 dc-65x

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:36 AM

REH is a distributor that sells to raceways. My last order was a few months ago and they had pans, motor brackets, and the chassis which has the drop arm and motor bracket.

If REH runs out of chassis for drop arms they could be made. The good Dokktor has had my laser cut blank guide tongues perfectly formed with tooling he had made. The same thing could be done with drop arm blanks. Laser cutting the blanks would probably cost $4 or $5 each plus material. Of course if Scott wanted to get these stamped out in quantity and sold through Electric Dreams I bet there would be a good market for a Parma clone drop arm.

Also, I know cheap is best but sometimes splurging a little on something really fun is OK. Remember, "The cars are the stars". :D

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