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Horsepower for Vintage racing?


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#51 Jon Laster

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 01:20 PM

A glue spudger would be incorrect for the period; we used our hands, mostly.

Back to speed; whenever I would put a fast car on to practice, and there were some slower guys, hobbyists, or kids running, I always felt I was spoiling their fun a bit. Whether this carries over to racing, I can't be sure but I think it might. Thus, it would take some care to integrate a faster class in without hurting the slower ones.

Rick, you've got some absolutely beautiful cars!
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#52 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:04 PM

Jon,

Rick is simply the best at either repairing originals or building replicas.

#53 dc-65x

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:05 PM

I can't handle all the power either but it's sure fun to try! :D Actually, the NCC20 C-cans seem about perfect but the open motors sure get the heart pounding.

Gotta go build a motor. Joel Montague's Henri's Friend open motor needs a hole drilled in the endbell for the copper rod buss bar...

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#54 Ron Hershman

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:46 PM

I would like to remind some here, that the current lap speed on a King track by the D3 Can-Am cars with their 10-dollar "rear-view mirror" motors is equivalent to that of world-record time in GP-7 in 1969-1970 attained with single-24 C-can motors. Most D3 racers think that this is plenty fast enough, hence D3 has frozen the spec. D3 does NOT want the cars to go ANY faster.Why? Ask yourselves.

Take your current D-3 car, put 1/8" axles and SBR tires on it and bring to Mac's Tom Thumb in Columbus (one of the last original King tracks in the U.S.) and let's see how close it is to the 1969 world record. Did you allow 1/2" rear spoilers back in '69? If ya didn't, take that off and let us know the lap times. Maybe you should take your 1969 world record holder to BP and see how much faster it runs on a super speedway track today compared to a flat King track of the glory days.

You're right about the powers of D-3 not wanting the cars to go faster, some of the powers couldn't keep up with them if they were any faster. LOL. So if I am running 3.9s on the Super Gerding King track at Bedford, IN, with my retro PS-powered machine, I am a rocket??? And would have been "back in the day"? Can only run 4.2s with a F-7 in the same car. I am pretty sure the BP king is quite a bit faster than our Gerding king here.

Rocky,You are missing the whole point. The track is still 155', the cars are fast ENOUGH if their lap times matches those of open-class cars of the time. In 1969-1970, those were the fastest slot cars on Earth.

Yeah and so does today's $45 Flexi RTR car... what's the big deal???

#55 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 03:09 PM

Ron,

With all due respect for your vast technical knowledge, as usual and certainly because of too many years of what you have been doing, I believe that you are, as some others are, missing the whole point of D3. I think that Rick Thigpen has got it, I do not believe that you do.

The comparison between 1969-1970 lap time was one of visual speed on a given track of similar basic design and had no other implicatgion or technological innuendos.

You want more speed? You know what to do.

We do NOT want more speed, we want more FUN, and we got it. This despite people who are doing everything they can to ruin it.
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#56 Jairus

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 03:38 PM

Sounds like we need a challenge race! Anyone want to volunteer to take on a vintage 1969 car with their D3 pile? Would be an interesting experiment to say the least!

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#57 slotbaker

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 05:45 PM

I have never stopped playing with my period bits. Horepower is fun to play with.

:roflmao: Sorry Rocky, but that tickled my funny bone.

I love this forum; so much great stuff: pics, info, and ideas.

It would be interesting to see one of Rocky's "dark ages" piles on the track at the same time with a D3 Can-Am or RetroPro to compare times.
:)

Steve King


#58 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 06:59 PM

Sounds like we need a challenge race! Anyone want to volunteer to take on a vintage 1969 car with their D3 pile? Would be an interesting experiment to say the least!

I am missing the point of such a challenge...?

#59 Noose

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 07:04 PM

Sounds like we need a challenge race! Anyone want to volunteer to take on a vintage 1969 car with their D3 pile? Would be an interesting experiment to say the least!

We did it here. I am fortunate to have still have my Tony P/Trinity-powered last pro car from then and I have a Ti22 mounted on it. John ran his Can-Am car against me and without glue he easily stayed throught the corners with me. Horsepower wise I was wayyyyyyyyyy past him. We ran times and his best in the 4.4 range at Zeps and with the Tony P car I ran a 4.28 sliding all over the place. It was anglewinder vs. inline.

Now, take a RetroPro type car and I would say that one from today would probably beat my "classic" simply because of the ease of controlling it from better bite.

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#60 Jairus

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 07:46 PM

I am missing the point of such a challenge...?

Ah, to support your claim that a modern D3 car is just as fast as a vintage 1969-70 pro car.
To simply compare lap times is not enough in my opinion. The D3 car will corner quicker due to lighter weight... but the pro car will accelerate faster and burn down the straight at a blistering speed.
Plus the fact that the track where you quote the fastest D3 lap time was recently constructed... is not comparable in my book. The lap times should be matched on the SAME TRACK to be considered similar in nature.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

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#61 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 08:32 PM

Ah, to support your claim that a modern D3 car is just as fast as a vintage 1969 - 70 Pro-car.

Jairus,
This is not what I said. I simply said that if the D3 cars are going around a 155' track as fast as GP-7 world record speed in 1969-1970, they are plenty fast enough for our racers. I invited no comparison because it is hardly possible today to make such a comparison due to all kinds of factors.
Vintage is vintage, retro is retro.
I can get a 1969-70 GP-7 car to go a LOT faster today than they did then. A LOT. Better knowledge, better tires, better prep, better tracks would make a 4.8" car going 3.75" today. So what would the point be?

#62 Jairus

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 09:30 PM

Why the back pedaling? I see nothing wrong with a challenge race between a carefully-prepared vintage car and a retro vintage car both driven by two experienced drivers. What could be more interesting?

Unless it is Hillary Clinton declaring she is converting to Buddhism and giving up the race for the White House and filing for divorce...

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#63 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 09:58 PM

OK, Jairus, you do it. :smoking:

#64 Jairus

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 10:15 PM

All due respect to your accomplishments and greater experience... but I was not the one making the comparison between vintage car lap times in '69/'70 to the current D3 car lap times! :shok:

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#65 TSR

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 10:23 PM

Jairus,

You are still missing the point. The point is, 1969-1970 was PLENTY FAST and we don't need to go any faster.
This is why we want to limit and freeze D3 motor tech now before this thing becomes a motor war. :yawnface:

#66 Jairus

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 10:31 PM

I am not arguing with you about CURRENT D3 technology. I believe what you say is best for the division.
Unless I missed something, changing D3 is not what what was suggested at the beginning of this thread...

Forget it!
I need to get back to prepping for paint. I have too much to do tonight to play a game of semantics...

ciao,

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#67 Hworth08

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 09:03 AM

I understand and appreciate Rick's desire to recreate the older cars and he does this in a very clean and senseable manner. If speed is the goal just buy a Group 12 Wing car, only $115 from Pro Slot as a RTR. Group 12 is somewhat unique in that it's a Wing class that can be raced on any track and be fun.

Nothing wrong with comparisions, building, or discussing the performance of the old cars but 40 years of technology have rendered the old cars quite slow.
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#68 TSR

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 09:22 AM

Don,

Compared to what? :icon22: Each era has its own history, but it is my experience that history cannot be duplicated, due to accumulation of knowlwdge. As I pointed, you can give me a 1969 genuine pro car and I can now make it go about 25% faster than it ever went, strictly through better blueprinting, something that simply did not exist then.

What would the point be? I see this being done in 1/1 vintage racing where some rich guys drive completely re-engineered Lotus 23s that have 75 more caballos than the ones Jim Clark drove, while cornering at .5G better and braking at 1G better. They have Penske shocks instead of the old Armstrong, carbon-fiber bodies weighing 1/3 of the original Specialized Mouldings bodies, and some ground effect engineering. Besides that, the tracks have become smooth billiard-like surfaces, so comparing speed has become silly. So they lap faster than Jim Clark ever did in such cars. Then they THINK that they can drive like Gods.

What was the point of vintage racing again?

So my point about D3 speed was that of perception and did not call for some kind of a challenge that would mean nothing.

The point of this thread was to ask "if there is any interest in a vintage race or series of races where, with the exception of rare earth magnets, it's run what you brung for horspower. Sort of ARCO rules for the 21st Century?"

D3 addresses a form of retro racing set around the 1966-1969 era, and places limitations in power and motor location as well as body design. It successful BECAUSE of the limitations, not in spite of them. Some really don't get it...

Mike wants something faster but still "vintage", a sort of RetroPro with more speed, probably obtainable with modern C-cans and "vintage" chassis, more than likely any pre-laser cut spring-steel chassis, representing a period encompasing 1974 to 1986, or so I gather.

So is there enough support to get something like this going? And what kind of aero and bodies would be used?

#69 Prof. Fate

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 10:08 AM

Hi,

Philippe is correct, my finishes in D III demonstrate a couple of points. I finished last or close to last.

Three races, three "lunched" motors, one borrowed chassis that we had to tape together.

FK failures are the one place where I cannot fix the problem.

So, by my finishing last, P implies that my opinion doesn't matter.

I have been pretty enthusiastic about supporting the program. But I STILL like running my old cars.

To P, 4.5 secs on the Gerding/BP king is "fast enough". I agree, too fast, actually in the spirit of Arco racing. But not the point, the problem is the track being too fast, not my cars. And I don't know about "blueprinting". I would suggest that previous conversations about "frankenmotors" might suggest otherwise. Power is fun on its own. If racing were the point, and I only get a couple races a year, I wouldn't bother. For me, it is "fun with cars" and racing is extra credit.

I know Larry likes to underate himself as a racer. But I also know that Brannen, Bomker, and I have current sub 2s in our lives.

One of the cars I like keeping is a late 70s Denver legal Group 15 that was my first Brit-style "center hinge" chassis. I merely added a hinge to an already-competitive 15 car I was running in the day. On Reuben's original King in San Antonio the car would do low 5s without airdams (using the P-designed Ferrari coupe), with dams in the mid 3s, and this spring on the Gerding, without airdams using the P-designed Ferrari coupe, 3.8s. The track is THAT fast.

Oddly, at the time, some kids runing 12s with dams were sneering at our DIII cars, like us old guys were too slow for real cars. They were on the low power, not race power setting. I merely pulled out this car and ran them down; they were running flat out in the low 4s! Got them at least TALKING.

"But you have to drive the car". So, I tried to show them the "trick" with airdams where you pick up hundredths here and there by "driving" the dams.

Sorry, I digressed. Racing is ego for P. He wins, it matters. I have never been accused of being a great driver, I just love playing with the machines.

That is the long way of saying that I DO play with period frames and more power and would cheerfully participate in some sort of retro race. I believe I know where VSRN has gone wrong, and P and I have discussed this. The "worm" in the apple was that the racing got more important than the Retro. Again, the airplane guys have already solved this problem with their "Society of Antique Modeler" rules (ask the Leepster). I wasn't there for THEIR golden age, but curiously I do fly the models (they are beautiful), and we manage to fly them as they were.

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#70 dc-65x

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 10:46 AM

Mike wants something faster but still "vintage", a sort of Retro Pro with more speed, probably obtainable with modern C cans and "vintage" chassis, more than likely any pre-laser cut spring-steel chassis, representing a period encompasing 1974 to 1986, or so I gather.
So is there enough support to get something like this going? And what kind of aero and bodies would be used?

Great idea! How about a chassis like this style:

Posted Image

A vintage Mura C-can with modern arm, magnets, brushes, and springs:

Posted Image

And MAC or O/S early 1970s repop body:

Posted Image

Yes, I'm repeating myself but I thought I'd try one more time. ;)

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#71 Hworth08

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 10:53 AM

Hi Fate,

An example of a good Wing 12 car. I had eBayed an old Box 12 car that had a very interesting frame the way the wire was bent. The car had a "hopped-up" X12 motor, the old wind, 60t/28, not today's 50 wind. I kept bad-mouthing a person who had a good Wing 12 car, a car that had won a pretty big race, maybe a Tri-State race, the week before. We were on an old AMF King, sure not a Wing King. He finally pulled out his car and after 4 or 5 laps he would come to a complete stop in the straight between the bank and deadman waiting for me to catch up! The cars weren't too far apart, about 5 feet from the finger back to the straight but then he'd pull me 20 feet or so down the straight and bank.

I was turning 3.5s and pretty pleased with a good-handling "vintage" car, the new car 2.9s on a slick track that the Wing racers around Nashville won't even practice on!

Put any of the '70s cars against a well-tuned Wing 12 or GT-12 and you'll get lapped every third lap. The old ones were fast in their day and deserve to be revered, their day has passed.
Don Hollingsworth

#72 dc-65x

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:17 AM

Put any of the '70s cars against a well-tuned Wing 12 or GT-12 and you'll get lapped every third lap. The old ones were fast in their day and deserve to be revered, their day has passed.

Yep and I'm about as interested in a modern Wing 12 or GT-12 car as I am a toaster. Hence the term, 'Vintage Racing". I can build that chassis with my own hands not pull it out of the package and blueprint it.

Remember, it's all about the cars... "The Cars Are The Stars" .

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#73 TSR

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:20 AM

FK failures are the one place where I cannot fix the problem.

Have no fear, we fixed that for you. After witnessing 1 year of FK failures, we built our own. No more of that unless your rear axle or gear are binding, a common cause of FK failures found in a LOT of supposedly well set-up cars...
As far as the rest, it will all fix itself.

Now back to the Mike Boemker wish for "more power", Rick shows a vintage C-can at its utmost state of tune from 1972. Set in a similar chassis as shown (one of which I made about 1,200 for various distributors under my Neat Things label in 1972 and that still can be found as a NOS item here and there), and set with the MAC Ferrari shown, by the way with its rear spoiler properly trimmed so as to avoid the "Handford Device" effect of actually causing LIFT, something that is common practice on many supposedly-advanced slot cars but never mind since some will never learn, such a car would be quite a rocket on a modern King, lapping around 3.2 to 3.5 secs with a S25 or S25.

Problem is, if the bodies are now easily-obtainable thanks to the agreement reached between Parma and Electric Dreams, and if the chassis can easily be reproduced (and hopefully by a better choice than the low-cost basic chassis shown here), motor parts are not very available, 25-year old armatures having aged epoxy and "dried" comms that almost guarantee a large percentage of motor failures, so such a genuine vintage car is impractical for most. Unfortunately, compromises would have to be made such as... modern arms. Problem is, modern arms are mostly too short for such cans, meaning that the only real solution to that conundrum would be the use of a modern C-can, me thinks.

Your opinion below.

#74 dc-65x

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:29 AM

This motor works great!

Posted Image

Posted Image

And I was thinking of a builders class as far as the chassis is concerned. That's why I showed a simple chassis.

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#75 Hworth08

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:32 AM

Philippe,

Studying the Golden Boot frame, with just a little reworking to make it an inline, that should make a clean, effective, and easy-to-build D3 frame.
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#76 TSR

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:33 AM

Rick,

I am SURE that this motor works great using a modern arm and mags, but where does a guy get all the OTHER parts in such quantity so as to support a new series?

I mean period C-can Mura hardware or endbells are not too easy to get at your local distributor... :)

#77 dc-65x

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:49 AM

The cans and endbells were available from Electric Dreams. The heat sinks we have had made. That leaves the brush hoods and the buss bars. we're thinking of having the buss bars made also. Brush hoods would be the problem. Junk Mura C-cans are not rare or expensive on eBay. Mint examples are expensive but we do not need "mint", junk will do just fine for a "builder" to make the motor I pictured.

We have also had comm coolers, Aguirre 5/8" front wheels (very similar to your Neat Things fronts), Riggen rear wheels, C-can motor brackets, and pans made. These could all be made available.

Having said that, I'd like to say that I am not proposing a class of cars for the average guy off the street. This would be a class for the true vintage nut who also feels "The Cars Are The Stars", builds his own cars, and buys things he needs off eBay if he has to. Quite possibly Rocky and I are the only ones left that fit this description!

Judging from the response to my ideas I feel that this is the reality of the situation and I shall slink back to the vintage cave I crawled out of and let it go, just like I did years ago when I quit racing with the VMRA boys (great bunch of guys but the cars were not the stars).

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#78 TSR

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:52 AM

...when I quit racing with the VMRA boys (great bunch of guys but the cars were not the stars).

Agreed 100% on that, I thought exactly the same when I went to race their series. There was very little actual vintage stuff used, and a rather poor choice of hardware to give any credibility to such a series.

#79 Ron Hershman

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 02:06 PM

Sounds just like D3. :laugh2: ;)

#80 TSR

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 02:10 PM

Ron,

You are so funny! :laugh2:

#81 Ron Hershman

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 02:11 PM

Unfortunately, compromises would have to be made such as... modern arms. Problem is, modern arms are mostly too short for such cans, meaning that the only real solution to that conandrum would be the use of a modern C can, me think.

Modern arms can be used in the "old" cans if the magnets are shifted towards the endbell. I know that Pro Slot has in the past and would be more than happy to make blanks with correct spacing to fit the older cans. The current drag cans are very similar to the length of the old C-cans, while the tower and deck on the endbell is shorter with the new endbells compared to the older endbells. A .040" to .060" thicker spacer between the blank and comm will fix that problem.

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#82 endbelldrive

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 02:25 PM

Judging from the response to my ideas I feel that this is the reality of the situation and I shall slink back to the vintage cave I crawled out of and let it go just like I did years ago when I quit racing with the VMRA boys (great bunch of guys but the cars were not the stars).

Hey Rick... don't do that! I feel your pain. It's too bad that Mura stopped production on their two-hole Green can X-12s and Super Wasps in the early '90s. We could have had a bang-up econo retro class with motors that "looked" 1972ish.

Anyhooo... being the iconoclast here... I've got a scale car in the works. It will be vintage... 1990 vintage... utilizing TSRF hubs and rubber (1"+ diameter!!), Pro Slot G27 set-up, piano wire and brass torsion bar frame, and a big old scale Lexan Porsche 962 body... it should have lots of grunt although it'll be fun getting it to handle! :wink2:
Bob Suzuki

#83 dc-65x

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:42 PM

Hi Bob,

Good luck on your 962 project. Please post pictures as my Ferrari 575 Maranello project was, well disapointing. Maybe I can pump it up a bit with your tips...

Rick Thigpen
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#84 Prof. Fate

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 12:24 PM

Hi,

Most of my vintage stuff runs some bits that are modern "work-alikes". Mostly the consumables.

In flying antique design "Society of Antique Models" type airplanes, all of the aircraft involved were designed for ignition engines. The SAM group has about 2,000 members, and the upcoming "SAM Champs" in Jean, NV, will have a couple hundred flyers flying in about 30 classes with literally thousands of engines on board. Most are NOT vintage. There are simply three classes of motors used. Actual restored vintage motors, replicas (work-alike), and modern glow motors. The more modern the motor, the more it is handicapped for the purposes of the competition.

Now, SAM started doing the retro flying back in the '60s. They had a few early problems, but largely have it dialed in. And here is the part important to US... the guys who started the group were flying from nostalgia; the current competitors are too young to remember these planes.

Now, P, I am not really working from vintage power versus modern. Rather, I just like more POWER! (make tool guy noises here!). And I have no problems with using, say, the modern FX Super16 as a workalike for the pro motor 16Ds we used in the day. Again, the advantage I have with keeping the cars running and noting the times. The FX Supers perform much like the 27s with Blue Dots in the day. Things could be worked out.

Back in '81, the first time I ran with PA Watson in a Texas series race, I qualified 7th and finished 5th in the A main on an old school King in San Antonio. PA used "Trinity" set ups at $350 a pop for the race, used a different motor in each of the two qualifiers and one in each heat. Further, his pit guy had a rack of noted tires and used a different set of tires on each lane. Very cool, for one race in SA, the guy used over $3,000 in motors for a $500 prize. I used one car, a set of tires, and a Gp20 motor (I hadn't that much time on the track and went conservative). But even my 20 was hand built out of 20 parts, and represented about 50 bucks at the time.

By those cost standards, nothing we are talking about qualifies as a big cost buy.

FXs are what? 15 bucks? Puppys are 20?

We could play with more power and the sky won't fall. We could even specify known vintage designs. For the fun of it. The nostalgia.

Fate
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#85 idare2bdul

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 01:07 PM

Rocky and I are kindred spirits. We like coming on to a straightaway and having the car accelerate! I remember Pete Zimmerman walking into BP and seeing the D3 cars go around the track and asking,"What happend to the horsepower? Those of you that were there for the RetroPro Big Dog race got your answer. These cars combine the lightweight motor advantage of a FK motor with fairly serious horsepower. 3.5s on the Gerding King ain't bad!

I'm not trying to replace the guys that are happy with FKs, as they are a nice form of racing, but for those of us that enjoy more, you want my wish list? Make the Pro Slot can slightly thicker. Offer it with double ball bearings and the 55 turn 30 gauge arm. In our virtually no-glue environment it should be good for 2 to 3 races before needing to retrue the comm. The bearings would probably last a full season before replacement. Such a motor could likely be marketed for a reasonable cost. Mura currently offers a double ball bearing Group 20 for $68. In 1969 dollars that would be $12.13. The Koford version is still under a hundred bucks, not bad for this level of performance and reliability.

The main complaint I've heard about using the less expensive 16Ds is that they are heavy and don't handle as well. Seems to me that we had to drive the vintage cars a bit to make them go around the track. Maybe I just don't get current vintage think. :huh:
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#86 Jon Laster

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 04:46 PM

Dear Bob,

Your 962 project is music to my ears. When the whole idea of Eurosport 1/24th cars first came up I always regretted the fact that true scale rules weren't adopted. The idea was, with the great 1/32 type chassis scaled up, cars would handle well enough to have scale tire diameters and bodies. Unfortunately this got fudged, then stomped.

I had a Booth Machine Indy car with 1" diameter tires that I took all over to races and ran it for fun when not busy. It looked so much better for having true scale tires (and drove very well, too).

Good building,

Jon
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#87 Jon Laster

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 05:01 PM

A follow-up; really, a mo' motor class with true scale bodies and tires wouldn't be an escalation of speed but sure would be a challenge. Admittedly, finding pieces and parts would also be a challenge, and those dying to run their 1970s anglewinders would not be helped.

PS: Is there a time limit before a no-longer racer gets canned?

Sincerely,

Jon
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#88 endbelldrive

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 06:37 PM

Hi Jon,

I've had the Booth 962 project on the brain since the early '90s. The plan was to base the chassis on this wire and brass design a couple of us used to run in the Pro Slot X12 scratchbuilt class over at Ernie Mossetti's Raceworld in Toronto. I was going to set the motor up with a large diameter G27 arm with scale wheel diameters and drag racing gears. The project has been stalled for a few years because I've gotten busy building retro cars and I'm too lazy to fabricate the tall pillow blocks needed for these wagon wheels. :scratch_one-s_head:

Posted Image
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#89 Jairus

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 06:47 PM

Looks very interesting, Bob... :D

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#90 endbelldrive

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 07:03 PM

Jairus, I'm outta control! :help:
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#91 Jon Laster

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 07:17 PM

Bob,

You build yours and I'll build mine! Somehow I cannibalized that old Indy car but I've got another body... on the other hand I just measured a 1/18th Maserati 250F and it's... 3-1/4" wide! 5" wheelbase and 1-5/8th tires. Oh, my God!

Jon
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#92 brucefl

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 09:13 PM

Hi guys,

It's me, I'm back, Big Jim Greenaway's friend Bruce Schwartz.

Hi guys, Jairus, Tony P, and the crew.

I wanted to put my 2 cents in. Why not just go back to the '70s and have pro and amateur? The amateurs build their own and try to make them the fastest they can using 16Ds and anglewinders/sidewinders, no holds barred, and the pros get sponsored and let the chips fall where they may. Let's just pick up where we left off, perhaps we can innovate the equiptment of the past without borrowing from the future (perhaps), keeping era-correct will be the only limitation.

I WANT TO BUILD CHASSIS WHERE I THINK I CAN, AND WIND ARMATURES WHERE I THINK I CAN. THAT was the fun of the times, I'll buy ready-to-run cars if I can or have them built too depending, or perhaps purely amateur races. You build it only for races. You have it built for you by the builders, etc., etc.

Mull it over, guys. As well we've got to find tracks that are local to all the participants so that they can develop a regular schedule. Now that's hard since tracks come up one year and are gone the next. Hey, I even had thousands of dollars of current group 7 parts that I was having a track owner put together for me and the next thing he closed and never returned my stuff, what a criminal! (he was in Hudson County, Florida; if anybody knows anything let me know).

Anyway how do we resolve this issue of distance to tracks and the lack of tracks and I can't take off from work to go to California at a drop of a hat... (by the way due to changes at my job I haven't been able to keep up with Jim, I don't know whats going on, as well keeping up with Electric Dreams emagazine/forum has been difficult).

I'm sure not just for me but for everyone, happy new year, guys, and I'll sit back and wait to read your responses.

The best to everyone.
Bruce Schwartz

#93 Horsepower

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 09:34 PM

:icon22: Each era has its own history, but it is my experience that history cannot be duplicated, due to accumulation of knowledge.

That is the most profound statement I've heard in a long time, and I've heard a lot lately. :shok: :yes3: :good:
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#94 team burrito

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:09 AM

Judging from the response to my ideas I feel that this is the reality of the situation and I shall slink back to the vintage cave I crawled out of and let it go, just like I did years ago when I quit racing with the VMRA boys (great bunch of guys but the cars were not the stars).

Rick, you big baby. You show up at one of our races with a Group 20 powered-F1 and I still beat you with my 16D-powered F1 car. Stick to your "all show and no go" cars. :angry:
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#95 havlicek

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 07:33 AM

Rick,

Maybe I can pump it up a bit with your tips...

I can supply you with some "grunt" for your "pump" in the form of an arm. ;) Just lemme know.
John Havlicek

#96 Jairus

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 11:26 AM

Russ, we do not attack other members here unless you are Dokk and Pappy. This is not a kindergarten playground and Rick has valid points to his argument.

Besides, Rick's cars are all built to GO and go they do! Just ask any one who owns one. ;)

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#97 68Caddy

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 02:32 AM

This is a great thread, but can we get back to the issue? :blush:

I have to say there are a lot of pros and cons but you would think that people learned from the past. Love the arguments on this tread but why not open up Pandora's box?

I don't see any problem with more horsepower. Personally, when I'm racing I always
feel that I'm running out of speed. Also I feel that other racers are looking for more speed.

Armature from the late '60s? :laugh2:
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In this bright future you can't forget your past.
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I'm racing the best here at BP but Father time is much better then all of us united.
Not a snob in this hobby, after all it will be gone, if we keep on going like we do, and I have nothing to prove so I keep on posting because I have nothing to gain.
It's our duty to remember the past so we can have a future.

Pistol Pete you will always be in my memory.

#98 JerseyJohn

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 09:19 AM

I touched on this before in a long lost thread... my ideas were to use the following motor rules.

Can - Only the Pro Slot and Koford Drag racing cans are allowed. They are heavy, and provide lots of gauss and are very similar in weight to the older two-hole Mura cans. No modifications or cutting allowed to cans.

Magnets - Any full size CERAMIC C-can magnet may be used. I say single piece mags only. There are quads and six-piece ceramic full-size magnets out there now... for more money.

Armatures - Any min diameter .510" with a minimum stack length of .440" or maybe .480 (similar to the Vintage days and longer stack length will add reliability) with any wind allowed.

Endbell - Any C-can endbell allowed with buss bars, heat sinks, etc. Aluminum endbells could be allowed to help cool motors and add reliability, but aluminum endbells are not period correct. ;)

Etc. - Any brushes, springs, shunt wires, spring insulation, ball bearings allowed. May hone and adjust air gap inside motors with shims, etc.

Sign me up, Ron!
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#99 havlicek

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 12:04 PM

I know that Pro Slot has in the past and would be more than happy to make blanks with correct spacing to fit the older cans.


If they'd sell some of those blanks (unwound as blanks), I'd probably buy some. So far, I've only found the Mura blank arms/coms which are really nice but a little pricey.

-john
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#100 Gator Bob

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 07:02 AM

Wow, things haven't changed ... 'too much'.


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