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The confessional


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#1 Mike Patterson

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:57 AM

I have sent in motors that I personally unsealed. I was assured at the time that it was OK. I can see now that it wasn't. Who else will admit to doing the same?


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#2 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:59 AM

Who did the refurb, Mike?


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#3 Lone Wolf

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:11 AM

Mike, my advice to you is to immediately retain A-Rods lawyers.  :laugh2:


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#4 Gator Bob

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:14 AM

John M., I think your question is irrelevant to what Mike P. is trying to accomplish here.


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#5 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:14 AM

Mike,

 

I think the issue isn't someone who sends in three or four motors and one has the seal missing because it fell off for whatever reason, it's the guy that takes ten motors apart and mixes and matches and then sends them in. That practice has to stop.


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"Whatever..."

#6 Cap Henry

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:22 AM

I never unsealed my motors, but I do know for awhile it was perfectly fine to unseal and go through ones own motors. The refurbers were to check to make sure the motor was still in spec, and reseal it if it was. This was common practice for awhile that way.


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#7 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:24 AM

And yet you still kicked ***, Cap... what's that tell you? :D


"Whatever..."

#8 Mad Mexican

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:29 AM

Amigos,

 

It tells you that Cap does his home work, research and development.

 

Adios Amigos


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#9 Cap Henry

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:49 AM

It tells me that if people wanna take their motors apart and match parts, it must not be a great help. Along with good runs at R4, I ran pretty good as an out of towner my first time at the Fall Brawl in Speedzone, with the same motors that only had the regular refurbs done.

 

The conspiracy and solutions are getting old. Mid Pack racers could help themselves out alot by spending more time at the track or in the box working on cars then on internet forums  :)


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#10 Fast Freddie

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:33 AM

Then WHY not allow it Cap? If it does absolutely no good to tear down a motor other then to give racers the opportunity to engrave their motor parts and increase their comfort level by reassuring them that what they sent off they got back. If that would be the only thing it accomplished then why isn't that worth it? Why poo poo an idea just because you don't do it, and just for the record I also sent in my motors with intact seals the first time. Then when I found out not everyone else was doing it that way (by the rules)I quit Retro and have been waiting for the BOD to do something about it ever since. I'll be waiting a long time me thinks.
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#11 Pablo

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:45 AM

If ONE MORE "EXPERT" recommends not worrying about people who cheat and open their own motors, and spending more effort into car setup, I'll SCREAM !!! I've had it with you people.  The rules are BLACK AND WHITE this was NEVER LEGAL it was NEVER OK no matter who told you it was. You should be ashamed of yourselves !!!


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#12 idare2bdul

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:57 AM

"The conspiracy and solutions are getting old. Mid Pack racers could help themselves out alot by spending more time at the track or in the box working on cars then on internet forums" AMEN!

 

How the car is geared, the quality of the gear mesh combined with chassis performance and driver skill are almost always the deciding factors. Of these factors the driver is more often than not the major limiting factor. A motor that is 5% better does not yield a 5% faster lap. Performance of the Falcon 7 differs far more than does the ProSlot motors that are being refurbished. One of the most dominant motors in the racing at Buena Park was given away because it was turning almost 4000 RPM below what we had found to be a top performing motor. I've only tested about 40 of the ProSlot motors but the variations are relatively minor compared to the Falcon.

I will point out that in a few cases people that were complaining about poor performance had motors where they had over oiled the endbell bushing and had oiled up the commutator. Falling off once a heat likely cancels out any performance advantage.

 

You might just try a claiming rule. You might not be able to claim Ron Hershman's skill but you could at least have a souvenir.


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#13 Phil Hackett

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:02 PM

 Falling off once a heat likely cancels out any performance advantage.

 
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#14 MSwiss

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:05 PM

I don't have any opinions, but I do love the name of the thread.


Mike Swiss
 
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#15 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:17 PM

I don't believe that for a second, Mike... :laugh2:


"Whatever..."

#16 MSwiss

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:22 PM

John,

 


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Mike Swiss
 
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#17 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:24 PM

I think the biggest issue is that under the guise of resealing a motor that may have had the seal fall off from heat, cleaning, or whatever, that some people took advantage of that. As I stated before, one or two in a batch that are otherwise sealed is one thing, a batch of motors ALL with no seals says that person was selectively mixing and matching.

 

Despite the fact that it may not have any advantage whatsoever, THAT is not a "level playing field". Everyone needs to be playing by the same rules. 


"Whatever..."

#18 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:25 PM

Mike, do tell... :laugh2:


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#19 Larry Labounty

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:42 PM

I think the biggest issue is that under the guise of resealing a motor that may have had the seal fall off from heat, cleaning, or whatever, that some people took advantage of that.  As I stated before, one or two in a batch that are otherwise sealed is one thing, a batch of motors ALL with no seals says that person was selectively mixing and matching.  Despite the fact that it may not have any advantage whatsoever, THAT is not a "level playing field". Everyone needs to be playing by the same rules. 

 

I'll have a drink to that statement !!!



#20 Gator Bob

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:00 PM

Whatever I send in -
 
Send me an Angel back.
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#21 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:08 PM

The funny thing about all this is that the refurbisher that offered his services to check the specs on unsealed motors and the reseal them, offered those services to any one willing to send their motors to him.  Seems only a few took him up on that, seems most did not.  The ones that sent him those motors must have deemed that as worth the money, seems most did not.  Now we are trying to figure out how to put the genie back in the bottle.  If those who say that they didn't send motors to this refurbisher have enjoyed the success they have and if they are happy with the outcome and if they don't feel they have been cheated in any way, then I suggest we quit kicking this can down the road.  None of these "solutions" will ever get past the BoD or work for that matter for a number of reasons.  We need to just leave it all alone like it never happened and go back to racing our toy cars for bowling trophies and wall plaques...


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#22 Cap Henry

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:22 PM

Pablo and Freddie, I wasn't saying we should completely allow rebuilding the motors. I was trying to say I don't understand why people do it. Also Pablo, I'm no expert lol

I'd like to see a fair solution come up with to prevent people from removing tags for matching parts, but still allow those who have issues with tags falling off not be stuck with useless motors. I know, easier said then done.

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#23 stemmy

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:33 PM

i dont really see and issue with the mixing of parts. as long as these parts are within spec then whats the big issue. im puzzled.


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#24 Fast Freddie

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:45 PM

Blair, it's the VOODOO of blueprinting they can't come to grips with. If not that then they believe that everyone will be cheating if allowed to blueprint their motors.

Mike, I see you haven't had very many admissions. No wonder, they would be banned from Retro for life if they did. I would watch out if I were you. The BOD MIB will be knocking on your door real soon for your honesty.
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#25 Gator Bob

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:47 PM

There's Something Going On


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#26 Mopar Rob

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 02:13 PM

If ONE MORE "EXPERT" recommends not worrying about people who cheat and open their own motors, and spending more effort into car setup, I'll SCREAM !!! I've had it with you people.  The rules are BLACK AND WHITE this was NEVER LEGAL it was NEVER OK no matter who told you it was. You should be ashamed of yourselves !!!

Pablo:

First off I have never sent I a motor that wasn't sealed. I work 12 + hours a day 6-7 days a week and don't v have the time to take stuff apart and blueprint it.

What I don't get is why you think somone who blueprinted their motor was cheating? Blurprinting is optimizing factory conditions or eliminating some of the manufacturing variance. Basically trying to make a motor similar to one that's two deviations from the mean right out of the package.

My view of cheating would be if the timing was changed to something outside of what one would see from manufacturing variance. Example would be if for sake of discussion the 25 degree nominal timing on the arm varies from 20 to 30 degrees. Blueprinting the arm might mean twisting the com from it current set point to the maximum allowable 30 degrees. That person didn't cheat, they blueprinted. Now if they changed the timing to 40 degrees, that would be cheating.

That being said I know a local racer who blueprinted his motors before sending them in. I wouldn't trade his best motor for one of my bottom 3rd.

Personally, the whole exercise affirms the process works and illegal motors didn't get sealed and used. Isn't that what the majority really want anyway?
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#27 Tex

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 02:37 PM

I know what happened... it was the blue moon!


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#28 Gator Bob

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:46 PM

Tex, No Blue Moon this month.  :D  Only happens in a month that has two full moons.

 

Chose from any four names below...... ^_^

1- Sturgeon

2- Red

3- Green Corn

4 -Grain

 

http://www.farmersal...ull-moon-names/


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#29 Tex

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:04 PM

Well, I thought I'd heard on the "news" about a blue moon this week. LOL  Now why would I believe ANYthing I hear on the news these days?!  LOL


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#30 bwolfsohn

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:22 PM

Well, I thought I'd heard on the "news" about a blue moon this week. LOL  Now why would I believe ANYthing I hear on the news these days?!  LOL

 

(From memory)

 

The original definition of blue moon was the 3rd moon in a 4 moon/3 month cycle.  I think the new definition started in 1938.


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#31 Gator Bob

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:51 PM

Everyone wins !

 

This month's full moon, which rises on Tuesday (Aug. 20), is not just a Blue Moon — it's also the Full Sturgeon Moon, the Full Red Moon, the Green Corn Moon and the Grain Moon.

Today's full moon qualifies as a Blue Moon because it's the third full moon in a season with four (most seasons have only three). Historically, there have been two different definitions of a Blue Moon.

Technically, a Blue Moon is the third full moon in a four-full-moon season. However, a 1946 article in "Sky & Telescope" magazine mistakenly defined it as the second full moon in a single month (since most months have only one full moon), and the definition stuck. Because August will have just this one full moon, it wouldn't meet the mistaken, though commonly used, definition, though it does qualify as a technical Blue Moon. [10 Surprising Moon Facts]

The moon's extra names come from traditional monikers for the full moon of a given month. A few hundred years ago, Native American tribes in what's now the northeastern United States kept track of seasons by ascribing particular names to each full moon. Later, European settlers added their own names for the full moons to the lexicon.

The annual August full moon has come to be known as the Full Sturgeon Moon, because the large fish called sturgeon can most easily be caught at this time of year. The name came from tribes who caught this fish in bodies of water such as the Great Lakes and Lake Champlain.

Another name for this month's full moon is the Full Red Moon, because the weather and atmospheric conditions during this season can often make the moon look reddish when it rises through a haze.

And finally, because crops grow tall at this time of year, this month's moon is sometimes called the Green Corn Moon or the Grain Moon.


Bob Israelite

#32 MSwiss

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:55 PM

I don't have any opinions, but I do love the name of the thread.

I still don't have an opinion, but as a Catholic, I still love the name of the thread.

 

And it reminded me of, not a real famous classic scene, but IMO, it should be one.

 

Burt Reynolds confessing to Robbie Benson in "The End".

 

Apparently I'm not the only one.

 

Off of Amazon;

 

Robbie Benson as a fledgling priest is a classic.

 

From this rather bleak premise stem a series of hilarious sequences, including the diagnosis itself by a very unsympathetic doctor, and Reynolds confessing his sins in church to a juvenile priest.

 

Robby Benson as the young Priest is so funny. Until this time Robby never was in a comedy.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#33 Pablo

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:19 PM

Mopar Rob, here is my response to this: "What I don't get is why you think somone who blueprinted their motor was cheating?"

Not following the rules is cheating.
The motor rules in IRRA state very clearly the motor MUST REMAIN UNOPENED.
Once you open the can, you are cheating.

Like telling a child, "don't go in this room". He goes in anyway, you catch him red handed, and he says, "But, I didn't touch or remove anything, therefore I never actually broke the rule"
If that is how you twist the English language, it is of no use to argue with y'all any further.

The most irritating thing to me, besides the guys who keep preaching to get a better gear mesh, learn to tune our cars and leave them to their cheating, is the lack of action on the part of the IRRA BOD to simply re-word the rules.

I was at a SANO a while back and a very very experienced racer friend of mine decided to not race a certain class because none of his motors were competitive. So please stop telling us to tune our cars better, we are smart enough to know that is just a smoke screen for you to hide behind your twisting the motor rules to suit your self.
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#34 Mike Patterson

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:41 PM

I guess the practice of unsealing one's motors isn't as widespread as feared, judging by the responses posted here.

 

BTW, the motors I unsealed represent 60% of my collection of Puppy Dogs, or 3 motors.

 

And why did my thread title suddenly get a lower case 'c' in confessional? I was referring to a specific room in the Catholic church where one unburdens themself of their sins, and recieves penance. Therefore, I believe the capital 'C' is the correct usage.


We all need to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.


#35 kvanpelt

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:47 PM

I guess the practice of unsealing one's motors isn't as widespread as feared, judging by the responses posted here.

 

BTW, the motors I unsealed represent 60% of my collection of Puppy Dogs, or 3 motors.

 

And why did my thread title suddenly get a lower case 'c' in confessional? I was referring to a specific room in the Catholic church where one unburdens themself of their sins, and recieves penance. Therefore, I believe the capital 'C' is the correct usage.

 

Why don't you ask gator bob!


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#36 Gator Bob

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:38 PM

 

Why don't you ask gator bob!

 

Because you are not allowed to say what you want or mean.. statements must be approved, corrected or deleted.

 

Is a selective and discriminatory process, like.... this one can stand up to the Spelling Police even if "Reported" under the "see something, say something"  guidelines that the Mod Squad follows.

 

==========================================

North va South Series results - Concord, NC

Started by Randy TheSlotCarTrack, Aug 20 2013 04:32 PM
 
==========================================

 

There are 'Rules' you must follow and if you don't like them .... too bad!

 

Tex, consider yourself 'lucky' the whole post wasn't pulled due to using political or religious natured 'words' outside of 'Freeblog'. 


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#37 redbackspyder

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:48 AM

If ONE MORE "EXPERT" recommends not worrying about people who cheat and open their own motors, and spending more effort into car setup, I'll SCREAM !!! I've had it with you people.  The rules are BLACK AND WHITE this was NEVER LEGAL it was NEVER OK no matter who told you it was. You should be ashamed of yourselves !!!


Then, Pablo, why were the rules never enforced, and who was in charge of enforcing them?

Mill Conroy
 

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Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

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#38 Pablo

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:51 AM

Be glad to answer that in a PM, Mill.
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#39 redbackspyder

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:54 AM

:help:  :help:  :help:  :help:  :help:


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#40 JHMerriman

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:32 AM

Pablo, why not answer it here?


James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#41 Pablo

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:40 AM

Two reasons:
1) The answer is obvious - IRRA™.
2) It was obvious Mill wanted my personal opinion, and he got it. Nothing I haven't posted before. Y'all know I've been preaching that the only person who should be breaking those seals is / was the refurbisher.  Been saying it for years.
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#42 JHMerriman

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:00 AM

Ok, thanks!


James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#43 MSwiss

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:48 AM

Pablo,

When you say "breaking the seals" that's the crux of the problem.
 
Back when we started this in 2007, the Pro Slot seals would fall off if you gave them a dirty look.
 
So guys weren't "breaking  the seals".
 
We felt there wasn't any way we could demand racers have that seal on, when they came off so easy,
not even from motor spray abuse.
 
We weren't subliminally trying to encourage guys to use that opportunity to blueprint their motors. 
 
As the seals and the sealing methods got better, it probably became less necessary to "have" to let racers send in motors without seals, but we could only monitor that "abuse" by feedback from the reburbers.
 
Greg, Joe, Tony, and myself didn't have any way to monitor this.
 
One of the refurbers was an IRRA™ BOD member, but isn't anymore.
 
Finally Dan must of felt it was getting out of hand, and acted.
 
I also contacted my friend Beuford, and he confirmed he was balancing a fair amount of PD arms.
 
Expecting the IRRA™ to go back and figure out the exact ground zero date, invent a time machine to correct it at minute one of the problem, is of course, a fantasy.
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#44 Samiam

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 08:04 AM

All this over a practice that even the experts admit does little to enhance performance.

 

I can't think of one thing I can do to a PS 4002b that would make it faster and not get booted by the authorized refurber.

 

I'm sending my good arm in with a sealed motor with instructions to install it in the legal sealed motor. Problem solved.End of story.


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Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
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Support your "Local Racer."
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#45 Pappy

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 10:02 AM

All this over a practice that even the experts admit does little to enhance performance.

 

 

Sam, it doesn't take much enhancement to give you a hefty advantage. All things being equal if you can get an extra 1/10th of a second a lap out of your motor (which is not even noticeable by the naked eye) it equates into 6.3 laps on a King track in a 24 minute race where you are turning in the 4.7 to 4.8 second laps. It's still almost 6 laps if you are turning in the 5 to 5.1 second laps. I don't know about you but I don't like spotting a guy 6 laps before the race even begins.


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Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
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#46 Fast Freddie

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 10:26 AM

Sam
I totally agree that if the process of blueprinting a motor does, by the statements of several so called experts, absolutely nothing to improve the motors performance and if it still has to under go the inspection of the refurbishing facility before it gets sealed. Then there is no logical, sensible, or practical reason for the restriction of blueprinting. In most all cases of blueprinting what really takes place is preventing premature failure of the motor, by fitting parts and pieces more precisely than the manufacturing process, and the satisfaction of the work done. It also allows the racer to keep the parts he bought and paid for close at hand and not send them off to Neverland with out identifying them in some manner such as engraving. I can understand how this wouldn't be a problem for some racers based on their relationship with ,in times past, a certain refurbishing facility. However, for many other racers that comfort zone doesn't exist resulting in a degree of angst and suspicion. Allowing the racers to open their motors and do with them, in a legal manner, what ever they deem necessary prior to sending them in for refurbishing would remove all doubt. When the motor leaves the refurbishing facility with a seal it identifies that motor as being legal no different than if an unopened motor was sent in for the same process.
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#47 JerseyJohn

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:39 AM

Just my opinion. What ive seen and experienced thru out my years of Retro racing is regardless of how we interpret the motor rules, chassis rules etc. At any given race, the guys that always do well will continue to win because there cars are set up to perform at there best and they are really good drivers.

Most of us average drivers with a super motor will just fall off more LOL

 

Regards JJ


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#48 A. J. Hoyt

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:50 AM

Mike,

 

Thanks for your most recent post. It is the most succinct, honest and reliable historical recount of the way this has all gone that anyone can ask for and I am glad you put it in one post.

 

From what I have seen, there are times you get that "magic" motor, the one that climbs the donut the best, has that nice punch off the tight turns and really pulls down the long straights. The only way ANYONE can exploit that is to have the chassis (and tires) tuned for that motor's characteristics and a driver that can work with it. If you go through enough motors, have that special chassis/tire combination that works for your track conditions that day and have the adaptable driving skill to work with it, you COULD have an exceptionally good race.

 

I have no idea where to start blueprinting a motor but I have watched the guys who race HO T-jets and know that that "magic combination" is possible if you have enough time and inventory to "find" it (I call it "chimera engineering") provided you have a track to test them ALL out on. You can make more arms candidates (and save a lot of time) for that "magic" combination by blueprinting your inventory first. This is a very expensive and time consuming process but the HO guys do it, even when balancing the arms is not explicitly legal (there are always ways...).

 

But keep in mind, you need ALL of the other elements to ever exploit it, so Cap Henry has got it right.

 

So, go to work on tuning chassis, learn how to select the right tires for the conditions, work on your racecraft. This is a lot more fun than trying to find that "magic" motor that will be your ticket to the front - everyone get real.

 

Keep it in the slot (that is part of it - nothing is worth a deslot - oooooohhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm),

 

AJ


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#49 Fast Freddie

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:55 AM

John
It's too bad you feel that way. If you believe that you are only a mid pack racer then chances are you will be. When I raced in the Mid Atlantic series, in the early 90s, there were many times I went up against factory supported racers as there was no AM class in our series. I never went into any race thinking I was only a mid pack racer. I always aimed for the number 1 spot. Sometimes I was successful sometimes I wasn't but one thing is true. I never stopped trying to get better. Even today when I enter a race I feel I have just as much of a chance of winning as anyone else. Because one thing is for sure. You never know what will happen during any race. Good driver and even Great drivers are not perfect, all of them make mistakes, just less often than most of us.
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#50 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:56 AM

Fred,

 

The issue that most people forget is that even though sealing the motor may "hurt" most blueprinters, it helps a great great many more racers that don't have that skill, desire or money.  This is where it does "level the playing field".  Don't get me wrong, I was one of the first that introduced the idea of having select reburbisher(s) working on these motors otherwise they would have become $40 fishing weights.  However, we don't need to start a $$ war between blueprinters prepping these motors for those of us that can't do it ourselves.  And yes, I've heard all the arguements that I should learn to do it myself, but I just don't want to.  And I know about blueprinters, Lou Pirro used to build all my scale stuff (16d to ES24) and I have a few Beuf BS12 wingcar motors in my box as well.

 

I'm afraid we are stuck with what we have.  Like I've said before, we have let this happen to ourselves.  We have too much money invested in these PD motors to throw them all away and start over (which really might be the best answer).  We really all need to stop all this needless rambling and let the BoD render a decision, and then and only then begin to abide by that decision and let that be the end of it...

 

 

Thanks... 


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