72 replies to this topic

[Jairus]

After the "year of love" that 1967 had provided... '68 was a very turbulent year.
Vietnam ramped up with the "Tet Offensive" and the "My Lai" massacre, we lost our first nuclear sub, "2001 a Space Odyssey" was released in the theater, Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Russians, Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King were shot and killed. (whew!)

On the hobby front the model car industry was still going great guns while the slot car industry began seeing a down-turn with tracks starting to close because of inactivity. Mostly due to the boomer generation moving on to adulthood (cars and girls).

Slot Racing professionally had suffered a revolt of it's own.

The innovation of the "Anglewinder",  just a few months previous, had builders on in a crash 'trial and error' program to seen just what chassis version to build in order to make these table top machines go even faster.

 

The months April, May and June were before the plumber chassis was invented... but well into the tilting pans and motor box era. And that is where I want to venture into with this build.

Not a replica per se... just an exercise in fun for a change following along with the innovators of that early era.

 

Most popular bits used back at the time are shown:

Re-popped Lola T70 spyder for a body
Cukras/Mura "A" can for power
Riggen wheels for grip with new rubber
Cox for a guide
Cobra for gears (not sold on that just yet and might go Weldun or Cox)



Lots of race reports and chassis build articles featured in later '68 Car Model mags show the variation in pan, tongue and rail designs.  So... I am pretty open to what was used. Some winners like John Cukras below ran little more than an earlier 3-rail jaildoor anglewinder chassis to win. While others  on the east coast were using 4 rail (brass and music wire mix). (See Tony Przybylowiez "Team Nutley's Winning Easter Chassis" article in Oct. '68 CM)

 

I sort of like the simplicity of the Cukras chassis and will probably go that route.

The key to this project is the motor of course.

It's a piece I've been working on for years.

A replica (no... not original Pdl) of an original first gen Cukras/Mura motor built with all original parts!

Arm features an untied com and came out of an early Mura "A" can.

Can and end bell also early "A" with no can mounting holes.
Mura Magnets of course.

Only thing I added were the shunt wires.
Thanks to John Cukras for the correct unused can decal.



Sings mighty sweetly and might be a gernade. But will suffice for this project.

Only thing I've done regarding a chassis is bending a motor box and cutting a drop arm.
But the day is open.... 

[Gator Bob]

Great opening post !

 

I love the way you painted the can and I'm sure this car will be awesome.

[SlotStox#53]

Wow what a collection on parts for a super cool project!! Simply love that Cukras motor

Very much look forward to seeing this one come to life , really like the simple design of Johns jaildoor anglewinder ..

Build on !

[Pablo]

I'm going to love this for sure

 

P.S. Jairus, when you apply a few Volts to test the drivetrain, I'm sure you will be thinking of this: Those Cobra gears do not mesh.

That is why they are all over the internet. Garbage. Please, for me, just ensure a Cox or a Weldun will fit in whatever nest you build for it.  That way it will be easy to swap.

[Dennis David]

I love these recreation/restorations.

[Hworth08]

Pretty fair chance the Cukras chassis in the article was a converted in-line. Many of the first angle-winders were convertees.

 

The Cukras really needs a white endbell with pent roof brush holders. That endbell was an important advancement for Mura and the key difference between the very popular #444 Magnum 1000, especially the later 444s that had the .007 arms. But some of the early Flower Power motors might have had gray endbells...if that's what was in the parts bucket that day.

[Jairus]

Don,  That's the later "Cukras" pink can motor you are thinking about.  
Collecting parts for one of those too btw.

[dc-65x]

Great project Jairus.

 

Don, here's a reference for the Cukras motors:

 

Mura "John Cukras Signature" motors

 

Jairus, where did you get the foil Cukras sticker?

[SlotStox#53]

Don't know which one Jairus mentioned but said John provided an unused can decal don't know if that was the flower or the foil decal.

[dc-65x]

Oh, I see it now. From the man himself! Cool

[Hworth08]

Guess I'm getting too old to correctly remember things that happened that long ago. I do remember the first time I saw one of the Mura "fogged" motor though. It was already in a car and I thought that sucker had got so hot it had scorched the paint!

[SlotStox#53]

Jairus , did you paint the can? Or were you able to find a "Cukras" A can wearing it's original paint? Either way that motor just looks like it's doing 100 just sitting there

[Jairus]

Yes I painted the can Paul.  Since I have seen more than a half dozen versions of this multi-color motor can painted... I simply picked one and went with it.
Pablo... found a Cox gear that will fit the bill sir!   

[SlotStox#53]

Excellent job on the can, having looked at several pictures of the fogged paint Cukras motors it certainly is the "real deal"   One day will have to try and collect the parts for just such a motor or maybe the Pink Cukras motor that Rick did for his 6 wheeler

[TSR]

John Cukras still has some of the old "Mura Cukras" stickers. It helps when attempting a nice restoration or making a copy of a car long disappeared.

Just to make it clear for Don, there were two distinct generations of Mura-Cukras. The first used cans painted in fogged colors (Ron Mura told me personally that he painted those himself!) and they exist in several colors:

-Gold with black fogging (longitudinally)

-Gold with black fogging (sideways)

-Silver with yellow fogging (longitudinally)

-Yellow with silver fogging (longitudinally)
 

More colors may exist, but few of these motors survived because they were effectively hand grenades.
Why? Two simple issues:

1/ wires were soldered to comm.

2/ wires were not tied between poles and comm.

When hot, the poorly retained brush holders began moving in the over heated endbell, generating more heat than the solder could take. The solder melted and the motor threw its wires with extremely spectacular effect.

Ron Mura called John Cukras for help after John refused to race the stock motors, and George Mura accepted the recommendations of John and Pete Zimmerman, bought a welder and redesigned the endbell with pent-roof holders, something used by Champion two full years earlier...

The new welded arms were also tied and that resolved most of the issues. The new motors had a white phenolic plastic endbell and pink cans, later there were some black cans, then purple, then white. I do not know in which order they were available, and I do not believe that anyone knows today.

 

Of the early motors in fogged colors, very few have survived. Of the second generation, lots of pink ones have survived. The purple and black motors are the hardest to find, the pink the easiest.

 

[SlotStox#53]

Loving the different color combos on the fogged 1st Gen cans ,those flower decals really go well with it. Definitely keep my eyes open for parts in the slim chance of sometime putting one of these babies together. Thanks for the pics Philippe & thanks in advance Jairus for deciding to build this car & using that motor

[Pablo]

Jairus, I'm glad you found a Cox. If you didn't have one, I probably did.
In a twisted kind of way I was hoping you would find the lousy mesh on that Cobra to be true.
The ones I have could be knockoffs ? Hard to believe a real Cobra gear back in the day would be practically worthless.
Anyway, the Cox is the answer. <G>

[Jairus]

There are two different runs of Cobra gears that I have noticed.  Early ones are dark grey and seem to be good as I have a number of them found in rolling chassis via eBay or came in a Cobra package.
Then there are the black ones.... which I have never seen in a package and suspect they were dumped on eBay long after the boom ended. 
Most of those tend to wobble or were cast out of true.
 

Regardless... the Cox is a 36t which provides a 4.5 to 1 ratio.
But I will never "Race" this car.  It's just for fun!

[Hworth08]

Thanks Philippe!

Actually I don't remember the fogged cans as being Cukras motors. Being in the southeast we knew of the Champion team members but a west coaster with name we didn't know how to pronounce... I do remember the pink signature motor though. That motor was $7 or 8 higher than a Magnum 1000. The shop owner had both motors, my brother and I compared them an hour or so before choosing the 1000 thinking the signature was a marketing ploy.

That 1000 motor with a Cobra 5 rail in-line frame and McLaren 6 body was the fastest local car a month or two before the anglewinders arrivied. The frame's gone but I still have the motor.

[dc-65x]

....I was hoping you would find the lousy mesh on that Cobra to be true.
Hard to believe a real Cobra gear back in the day would be practically worthless....

 

It's all in the "Korrect" pinion gear Pablo. When you find a pinion that the Cobra spur likes they work fine. Unfortunately, most of the pinions I have, both new and vintage, don't like the Cobra spur. I try to avoid the Cobra spur gear too but they are the ones that are most available, unlike the Cox.

 

Gears are a complex subject. There is more to "gearing" than just the pitch and the number of teeth. Not all 48P or 64P gears are the same. I've got lots of different 48P pinions from new to those made in the 1960's. If you look at them closely you'll see a different "gear tooth forms"  which is, more or less, the shape of the gear tooth. Some are "roundy" and some are more "pointy".

 

When I'm using a Cobra spur I'll try pinions of different tooth forms and try to find one that meshes well. The Cox on the other hand, usually meshes beautifully. You just need to find one that the hub is on straight and true . I remember buying a new full box of Cox 34T spurs thinking I'd really scored. Every one of the suckers wobbled like a drunk staggering out of a bar at closing time

 

There are two different runs of Cobra gears that I have noticed.  Early ones are dark grey and seem to be good........Then there are the black ones....

 

I haven't tried the "black" Cobra gears. All the ones I have I've gotten have been from pretty recent REH purchases and they have all been grey.

 

From the anglewinder beginning in early 1968 the Cox spur gear took over from the first used aluminum 64P Weldun and was used well into the 1970's. Look at Lee Gilbert's famous CM article and he's using a Cox years after the Fass 64P gears came out. I think PdL has commented on the Cox out lasting the Fass gears in the 70's too.

 

I think the Cox gears are hard to find because they worked so well they were just used up.

 

Sorry for the babbling .

 

Onward Jairus

[Steve Okeefe]

Jairus,

 

Since you are not building a replica, but a period-correct original design, you have a great deal of freedom when it comes to the chassis design, especially the center section.  In June 1968 the field was still wide open, as the various pro builders were still sorting out what they thought worked best.

 

Have you decided to go with a motor-box, a full-rail design, or something else?

[Jairus]

Steve,

Thinking of a full motor box with 4 brass rails.
Race reports were pretty standard with such designs.

What I have noticed is that most builders used in-line motor brackets cut to make anglewinder motor brackets. So... my question to you dear historian Steve... what should I use for a car built between the months of April to June? Were adjustable motor brackets available in hobby shops during those three months?

[dc-65x]

Hi Jairus,
 
If it would help, I've just looked in Model Car Journal June 6, 1968 and there are ads from Associated and Mini Wheels for "sidewinder motor brackets set at a 20 degree angle and allows for adjustable gearing".
 
So these are motor brackets with a built in axle bracket that can be cut up for your build like so:
 

I saw a beautiful Mike Steube built mid 1968 pro car on Ebay and I knew I had to build my own version. The car ended up with LASCM and was beautifully restored by PdL. Photo courtesy of Philippe de Lespinay:



Here's the link to its restoration:

E-Payoff, or How we found this wonderful Steube car

Philippe also took this picture to help us wannabe's build our own version. Photo courtesy of Philippe de Lespinay:



I printed this out and used my measurement of the ruler to establish a scaling factor. Then I could measure other things on the picture, multiply them by the scaling factor and get a rough idea of what size things are on the real chassis. A rough idea is fine for this project as I am not trying to clone Mike's car. Rather I'm doing what I did back in the day.....plagiarize other peoples ideas . Actually there is just something about the way some cars look that sparks my interest. I don't have a first generation angle winder to run in my shop car box. I wanted to see difference in performance that caused the Pros to dump inlines so quickly.

I'm using an Associated motor bracket and drop arm that Mike may have also used. His drop arm is for the Cox guide and mine is for the Dynamic Low Profile guide that was also used in this time period. Mike even used one to win the 5th LA Championship race in Oct 1968:



I narrowed the drop arm to 7/8" and cut the axle bracket off the motor bracket:

[Steve Okeefe]

Jairus,

 

Generally a bit too early, but there were a few adjustable motor brackets; Rick has already pointed them out.  Most of the manufacturers however hadn't caught up yet.  Personally, I would use a cut-up inline bracket, but then I'm old school.

 

A good choice for an inline bracket to cut up for this build would be a (currently available - PCH Parts Express) REHCo #3000.

 

Four brass main rails with simple uprights to the front axle is a good choice.  The motor-box should of course be piano wire.  Builders were commonly either wrapping the outside rails around the motor-box or jogging them up and over the top of the motor-box.  Inside rails were commonly turned inward and soldered to the motor-box.

 

A few builders would simply butt the outside rail up against the motor-box and add piano wire braces over the top of the main-rail to motor-box joint.  The brass strap over the top was not yet widely used (we're speaking of a matter of weeks here) , but would be later on.

[Jairus]

Went through all my stuff and used up all those REH brackets.  A little shocked I can tell you. Almost tore apart another old chassis just for the bracket... but something said patience.

So made an order to PCH.  
In the mean time I can build the tongue and cut some brass tubing.

Thank you all for the very helpful information. Got lots coming in from all parts of the hobby!  Thank you!